Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Ankit Kumar]

In fact, the flyaway cost of a Su-35 in Russia is $15M. The Mig-35 is likely around the same price.

I guess you mean 45 million us dollars?

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio
Can you help with some data about Light Stealth Aircraft you talked about.. Wish to understand if Gripen NG is superior or inferior to that product potential?

Gripen NG will be significantly inferior to the LSA in many aspects. According to the creator, LSA will have a stealth airframe, supercruise, very high TWR, very high range (matching Su-30MKI), large IWBs etc. It will be powered by the EJ230.

 

[raktaka]

It is relevant, at least the ToT part. As that will form our basis of discussion of what Gripen possibly could bring on execution. Your proximity with HAL will help us connect the missing dots.

Grippen production line will provide IAF with a modern proven aircraft which is cheap and provides great value. HAL productivity or Production has nothing to do with this. Which is why its Tactical and not strategic.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I guess you mean 45 million us dollars?

Not there has been a sharp devaluation of the ruble

 

[randomradio]

I guess you mean 45 million us dollars?

No, now the cost of a Su-35 is $15M. Ruble has fallen 250%.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Grippen production line will provide IAF with a modern proven aircraft which is cheap and provides great value. HAL productivity or Production has nothing to do with this. Which is why its Tactical and not strategic.

more than 90million dollars for aircraft excluding weapons, training, infrastructure is not at all cheap. Or is it?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Gripen NG will be significantly inferior to the LSA in many aspects. According to the creator, LSA will have a stealth airframe, supercruise, very high TWR, very high range (matching Su-30MKI), large IWBs etc. It will be powered by the EJ230.

Thanks a lot.. So based on this we are claiming (using claiming bcz we dont have a real bird a case similar to Gripen NG i guess but work is on in case of Gripen) that LSA is superior to Gripen NG

• Any estimation of what price band? Perhaps also about its weapon points..
• Just to guesstimate what could be flyaway + weapons cost in USD?
• Also will the line in India will have any Indian partner? Is it feasible under MII banner?

Also in a honest opinion, if you have to choose between LSA, Gripen NG and say throw in F16s/F18s (discounting 18 being twin engine), what thoughts comes to your mind?

Assuming only 1 slot is available for MII and other is used up by Rafale.. (total 2 slots)

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Not there has been a sharp devaluation of the ruble

No, now the cost of a Su-35 is $15M. Ruble has fallen 250%.

You mean made in Russia mki will be cheaper than made in India ?

 

[raktaka]

There are two things you haven't taken into consideration.

The Dassault price for manufacturing Rafales was based on Dassault's manpower requirements but HAL's cost per hour. HAL increased the manpower requirements to 2.7 times. So French manpower costs were not the metric.

And there's an article somewhere where the HAL Chief clarifies that HAL employees are not as productive as Dassault's employees. Dassault + all contractor's total manpower requirement is 9000 for 36 aircraft per year. They all take an off in August, so they work only 11 months, so 33 aircraft/year. HAL has a DPSU culture where they higher more than necessary manpower whereas Dassault's factories are more automated hence requiring more expenditure in automation which HAL wasn't willing to do.

HAL has no reason to go for automation just to compensate for Dassault's oversight. That is an illogical assumption.

Dassault was required to conduct an inspection / study or sought an report from HAL detailing its production process before submitting the RFP. The onus was on Dassalt since HAL was NOT a joint bidder in the process. It was for Dassault to have sought clarifications or raised objections before the final submission.

Even if we assume HAL's slower production practices, it is for Dassault to plan for contingencies and do risk mitigation, especially if its a know risk and HAL is an declared stakeholder.

What HAL can bring to the table, NO other private player can bring. That is pretty much the reality. So its pointless to expect Dassault to tie up with Ambani or Kalyani and reduce price on the Rafale, It just won't happen. Its mission impossible.

It would have been smarter just to negotiate with HAL and swallow their pride.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[randomradio]

Thanks a lot.. So based on this we are claiming (using claiming bcz we dont have a real bird a case similar to Gripen NG i guess but work is on in case of Gripen) that LSA is superior to Gripen NG

• Any estimation of what price band? Perhaps also about its weapon points..
• Just to guesstimate what could be flyaway + weapons cost in USD?
• Also will the line in India will have any Indian partner? Is it feasible under MII banner?

Also in a honest opinion, if you have to choose between LSA, Gripen NG and say throw in F16s/F18s (discounting 18 being twin engine), what thoughts comes to your mind?

Assuming only 1 slot is available for MII and other is used up by Rafale.. (total 2 slots)

If LSA happens, then there won't be a second MMRCA. The price is expected to be much cheaper than Gripen NG. Any weapons can be used, but he's built the IWBs for MICA. The LSA line will be built with an Indian partner, but foreign companies will have to supply engines and avionics. We haven't had any more news for a few weeks now.

But Russian jets are the cheapest now. A Su-35 is half the cost of a LCA.

You mean made in Russia mki will be cheaper than made in India ?

Probably 6 times cheaper.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

HAL has no reason to go for automation just to compensate for Dassault's oversight. That is an illogical assumption.

Dassault was required to conduct an inspection / study or sought an report from HAL detailing its production process before submitting the RFP. The onus was on Dassalt since HAL was NOT a joint bidder in the process. It was for Dassault to have sought clarifications or raised objections before the final submission.

Even if we assume HAL's slower production practices, it is for Dassault to plan for contingencies and do risk mitigation, especially if its a know risk and HAL is an declared stakeholder.

What HAL can bring to the table, NO other private player can bring. That is pretty much the reality. So its pointless to expect Dassault to tie up with Ambani or Kalyani and reduce price on the Rafale, It just won't happen. Its mission impossible.

It would have been smarter just to negotiate with HAL and swallow their pride.

Dassault was required to give ToT, the new approach is part of ToT but HAL refused it, HAL chooses outmoded methods.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

If LSA happens, then there won't be a second MMRCA. The price is expected to be much cheaper than Gripen NG. Any weapons can be used, but he's built the IWBs for MICA. The LSA line will be built with an Indian partner, but foreign companies will have to supply engines and avionics. We haven't had any more news for a few weeks now.

But Russian jets are the cheapest now. A Su-35 is half the cost of a LCA.



Probably 6 times cheaper.

Time for India to order 2 Squadrons of Su30 from Russian production lines. And save ~30 million US dollars. Total near about ~1 billion dollar.... that's big.

Learnt something new , and thus grew wiser and older .

 

[Dash]

Grippen production line will provide IAF with a modern proven aircraft which is cheap and provides great value. HAL productivity or Production has nothing to do with this. Which is why its Tactical and not strategic.

Call it Gripen assembly line and I will agree. Gripen is a dead jet even after India buys 100. No future and nothing to gain from it. We already know how to build a pylon, a wing, a fuselage, a rudder, a tail and all things that had gone to LCA. Gripen brings nothing more to table apart from engine tech which is GE. So lets call it a day for ToT.

Second, If you really need a fighter (I am not sure what MP is saying here), which would be logically a better choice for many things I would opt for Boeing SH. They have a technology base and they are good one in offsets. If and only if there will be a second fighter. It should be Hornet. Gripen does more damage than healing. LCA can do all the things Gripen is doing. LCA mk2 is the Gripen. Adding that is better for IAF and India.

I am not saying Gripen is a bad fighter or anything. I just dont see any value in getting that one, just because we have to have some numbers. and I personally feel Parikar was saying the options available both for fighter and budget.

 

[raktaka]

more than 90million dollars for aircraft excluding weapons, training, infrastructure is not at all cheap. Or is it?

If you want to play with the Big boys, ................ cheap is not an option.

Funding your own R&D is.