Dancing girl murdered by Taliban

[Pashtun]

Jirga system must die if it is considered a roadblock to effective governance. More must be done on the government's part to provide humane solutions to problems.

Jirga system cannot die unless there is an alternative. It is the part of the free tribal society and part of the agreement Quied-e-Azam signed with Tribes to have him join Pakistan in 47. If we are to crush it, it will create chain reactions and will create vaccume, which will be filled by our external enemy, since you cannot expect from Tribal society that you expect from someone in a metroplois. Also one should not be confused with the Pashtun jirga system with Panchayat or similar types of counsels in Balochistan and Sindh, where we hear they make one party rape another party's woman, or make people walk on coals to see if their feet are burned or not (if burned they lied).

The Pakhtun jirga system have nothing remotely like that. There's not even a single instance of this stupidity. It's the most democratic form of justice, where the elders of the area decide in the light of best of the interests of the both parties and the area, to keep peace! It's super effective if you ask locals, who can get the justice done in days!

 

[orion]

Even if she was running a brothel, they didn't need to kill her.
They could have just burnt her brothel down, warned her, she'd have run off.

The brothel part could easily have been cooked. You get some radicals who call women prostitutes for simply stepping out the house. I personally wouldn't believe these idiots.

I read ur posts and really respect ur views a lot seriously but on this instance I beg to differ.Ground realities can be shockingly different because there's always another angle to the story.In this case the most unbiased views would have been from the locals,unfortunately they have been left out in the report.the truth behind shabana and the taliban could be made clear from them.
Killing her is gruesome to us but lets assuming for a minute if her profession was really as dubious, then put urself in place of those helpless families who may have lost their innocent daughters (and sons indirectly) to this vice.To top it they have no where to go for justice.wht would they be thinking?who would they side with?

And I repeat myself,the ppl of Swat do not think like talibans.They never had a jirga system on the same lines as FATA.But they never got the protection of law and administration they had a right to.
Just like the rest us of treated it no more than a 'honeymoon' destination, so did the law enforcements aygencies there....the problem,it's become long overdue now.Enter the taliban!

Pakistan can still eliminate this vice because alls not lost in Swat as yet.They love Pakistan and they still respect the PA.They just need to be reassured.We need to differentiate between maulana fazllullah's ideology,maulvi umer and mangal bagh.There r clearly more than two factions working here...while one denounces girls education,another says they r not against it and will hold talks with maulana fazllulah.
Silobreaker: Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan not against girls schoo...

One targets the PA and funded by the indian intelligence,another is ready to fight alongside it if the need arises.
The adminstaration should take the friendly side onboard and implement a better form of goverence,to eliminate the rest.We need to back up our forces with diplomacy,otherwise it's a lost cause.

 

[Omar1984]

Depends on which Talebans are you talking about. The original movement or this confusing one with dozen different parties using the name of Talebans to carry their heinous acts.

And trust me, Talebans were not barbarians. They ruled Afghanistan for about 7 years, and have you heard a single shot fired towards Pakistan? And if they were barbarians, why would Pakistan have had recognized and legitimized their government in the first place?

Think rationally my dear, Talebans are basically victims of the Media. If you critically examine their rule and technics, you will be amazed to see how excellently they brought peace in Afghanistan and cleansed the threat of India for Pakistan, in a country (Afghanistan) where peace is the most precious commodity.

Anyway its really off the topic, but what I really wanted to say was, if Pashtuns (the toughest and roughest of entire Pakistan) cannot contain them as of yet, then Lahore or Karachi is much more domesticated and less resistful in comparison to the north west.

I still remember a simple phone call in CD market in Lahore shut the entire market for a day, yet they being actually present there. So careful what you wish for.

Yea but Taliban are against any kind of music, art, or entertainment like movies. What if Rahim Shah wants to perform a concert in his hometown of Swat, will Taliban let him, I dont think any singers can be safe in Swat anymore...Am I wrong?

In Lahore people cant survive without music, movies, art. Lahore is the cultural hub of Pakistan, I think if Taliban ever reaches Lahore, theyre going to have their hands full and will eventually give up.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Yea but Taliban are against any kind of music, art, or entertainment like movies. What if Rahim Shah wants to perform a concert in his hometown of Swat, will Taliban let him, I dont think any singers can be safe in Swat anymore...Am I wrong?

In Lahore people cant survive without music, movies, art. Lahore is the cultural hub of Pakistan, I think if Taliban ever reaches Lahore, theyre going to have their hands full and will eventually give up.

If Taliban reaches Lahore then we have failed as a nation.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Jirga system cannot die unless there is an alternative. It is the part of the free tribal society and part of the agreement Quied-e-Azam signed with Tribes to have him join Pakistan in 47. If we are to crush it, it will create chain reactions and will create vaccume, which will be filled by our external enemy, since you cannot expect from Tribal society that you expect from someone in a metroplois. Also one should not be confused with the Pashtun jirga system with Panchayat or similar types of counsels in Balochistan and Sindh, where we hear they make one party rape another party's woman, or make people walk on coals to see if their feet are burned or not (if burned they lied).

The Pakhtun jirga system have nothing remotely like that. There's not even a single instance of this stupidity. It's the most democratic form of justice, where the elders of the area decide in the light of best of the interests of the both parties and the area, to keep peace! It's super effective if you ask locals, who can get the justice done in days!

Pashtun sahib, that's all well and good but the reason there is no alternative is because they have outright refused it, and every time government tries to flex it's influence, it receives a barrage of bullets and threats! These jirgas must decide whether they want to be in Pakistan with full rights as every other citizen or in a state of perpetual war like their neighbours to the north. The jirgas can stay but there needs to be federal oversight and a cohesion of the same rules and laws applied elsewhere. Then you will see development and opportunities flooding in.

How does it feel as a Pakistani that we must receive approval from a jirga and an armed escort from the FC just to travel through these lands? This is bullshit, even Jinnah would not have foreseen that these areas would harbour people willing to kill Pakistani soldiers and civilians.

 

[maximus]

Jirga system cannot die unless there is an alternative. It is the part of the free tribal society and part of the agreement Quied-e-Azam signed with Tribes to have him join Pakistan in 47. If we are to crush it, it will create chain reactions and will create vaccume, which will be filled by our external enemy, since you cannot expect from Tribal society that you expect from someone in a metroplois. Also one should not be confused with the Pashtun jirga system with Panchayat or similar types of counsels in Balochistan and Sindh, where we hear they make one party rape another party's woman, or make people walk on coals to see if their feet are burned or not (if burned they lied).

The Pakhtun jirga system have nothing remotely like that. There's not even a single instance of this stupidity. It's the most democratic form of justice, where the elders of the area decide in the light of best of the interests of the both parties and the area, to keep peace! It's super effective if you ask locals, who can get the justice done in days!

Dear brother Pashtun,

Let me start by revealing that I also inherit the Pashtun origin. Even though, the Quaid may have agreed at the time, he surely would have disapproved today. Having said that, the Jirga tribal system is an ancient and outdated system that ought to be banished in my humble view. Whilst it may have been an effective way of settling disputes in the past it isn't compatible with this era any more. For decades we have witnessed the chaos and enmity it has fuelled amongst many tribes. Additionally, the Jirga is usually misused by many religious and non-religious elites and entities. It has surpassed its usefulness. There is hardly any oversight nor accountability. The cruel and often unjust punishments handed out by these Jirga's not only defy our faith, but also the legal system of the country. Justice is hard to be found. Even though the Jirga's may differ across the country we require one form of established rule of law. Nothing should be above the law. I vehemently believe in the common rule of law that also inhibits the religious law.

I'm aware that the common law in Pakistan isn't always the most efficient nor exemplary. However, it's the best we have and one that unifies us all. We don't need different Jirga's etc. scattered in every other province. It undermines unity and the rule of the land. We need to get beyond the tribal system and start thinking about unity. We are all Pakistanis first. Let's not judge each other on ethnicity or religion. That has never been the purpose of the creation of the state of Pakistan. We need one central command of authority. We also need to focus all our efforts on strengthening and perfecting this common law all across Pakistan. The elders need to realize this and act in the best interest of Pakistan. Handover the future of pakistan to the new generation that can face the challenges.

I believe that the tribal people all across Pakistan need to be given the choice to decide whether they want to live by the rule of Jirga. Let's call it a referendum. I do agree that forcefully banishing the Jirga won't achieve anything other than resentment from the followers. It needs to be a gradual process and not an imposed one. I hope you agree with me...

 

[Pashtun]

Pashtun sahib, that's all well and good but the reason there is no alternative is because they have outright refused it, and every time government tries to flex it's influence, it receives a barrage of bullets and threats! These jirgas must decide whether they want to be in Pakistan with full rights as every other citizen or in a state of perpetual war like their neighbours to the north. The jirgas can stay but there needs to be federal oversight and a cohesion of the same rules and laws applied elsewhere. Then you will see development and opportunities flooding in.

Kharian brother, I have to agree with that they refused to budge into demand of becoming PATA instead of FATA, and they have their reasons for it. (I personally would like to see them merging in NWFP tho). The reasons they have not to merge is - There's no development offers on the table, there are no alternatives given to them at all. Believe me, it's all sweet talk that opportunities will flow and this n that. We can't handle our metropolises, close to 75% of our population live under $2 a day. Forget the national stats, look at NWFP, there's absolutely no projects given to NWFP. Absolutely no modern universities, no industrial project (such as toyota, honda, suzuki, etc. etc.). Moreover, whatever the province produce, becomes federal property and no money is shown to the province. Look at Hydro, the Forestery, the Tobacco, all are controlled by Fedz, and no payments have been realsed (payments are in billions) to use the resources of the province.

NWFP is in shambles. Absolutely no developments what so ever by the govt. And the money that is being sided for some projects, we all know what our politicians do with it.

These and more are the concerns of NWFP and the FATA does not want to get involve in provincial politics, for now, because of that - they have a seperate governing system, and thats working for them.

How does it feel as a Pakistani that we must receive approval from a jirga and an armed escort from the FC just to travel through these lands? This is bullshit, even Jinnah would not have foreseen that these areas would harbour people willing to kill Pakistani soldiers and civilians.

I don't think any one need an approval from a Jirga to goto FATA. You have been misinformed, severely. You are safer in FATA than you are in the cities of Pakistan. The Pashtunwali code that we all abide by, protects your every right, from your safe arrival to your safe return, even if you commit something wrong there (you will be avenged tho after you are safely returned to your homeland).

And the agreement "signed" between tribes and Quied, very explicitly states, there will be NO army presence in the FATA. The governance will be done through Political Agent (federally controlled), and the law n order for the Political Agent will be maintained by F.C., under the FCR (Frontier Crime Regulations).

Tho FCR is the most heinous of Human Rights violater regulation, tribes still agreed with the terms and signed the agreement to join Pakistan and protected the 2500km long border for 60 years, without Pakistan army firing a single bullet or losing a single soldier.

And we all know Talebans ruled 7 years in Pakistan and not even a single bullet was fired on Pakistani side with their heavy presence in Afghanistan. So why do you think they are now spilling in our side of the border?

Now you tell me, if we send 120,000 innocent soldiers their way by taking the American orders under the pretext of War on Terror, and start bombing the locals on the name of Terrorists, what do you think the out come will be?

I tell you, if army start bombing Lahore today under the same pretext, lahoris will rise too. Same will go with any city of Pakistan.

We cannot bomb our own citizens. No country in the world have done this. We have been trapped in the plan of zionists, who wants us disintegrated by alienating masses, and we must not play in their hands.

We must correct our policies, and must end this honeymoon with WoT. Trust me, it is going to cause us dearly if we are not going to re-think our policies and fight someone else criminal war.

 

[Pashtun]

Having said that, the Jirga tribal system is an ancient and outdated system that ought to be banished in my humble view. Whilst it may have been an effective way of settling disputes in the past it isn't compatible with this era any more. For decades we have witnessed the chaos and enmity it has fuelled amongst many tribes. Additionally, the Jirga is usually misused by many religious and non-religious elites and entities. It has surpassed its usefulness. There is hardly any oversight nor accountability. The cruel and often unjust punishments handed out by these Jirga's not only defy our faith, but also the legal system of the country.

Well Maximus, inheriting Pashtun origin, and living your life under it, are two different things. Have you lived in the Pashtun society (I am not talking about settled areas of NWFP, but FATA/PATA)?

What I read is, you have been severely misinformed about Jirga system in Pashtun lands. Tho I agree we need a common law system, do we have one? tel me anywhere in Pakistan, do we have one? where one can get justice or respect the law?

Then how would you banish the Jirga system, which is part of Pashtun life? with what would you replace it? The judicial system that is so openly abused in our country, that we just saw Justice Dogar's daughter getting away with marks by destroying careers of 100s of students by overstepping them, and the judicial system favoured in her behalf. Apart from that, hardly anyone, in Pakistan, I have seen that actually respects the law (generally speaking). A police officer somewhere in Pak slapped a tiny little girl for nothing, and then people beat the **** out of in response.

On the other hand, the Jirga system (and I am only speaking for my creed) is obliged by every single soul in the region. It is the last and final verdict (tho one can argue it has short commings). And it is not based on alien laws, it is based on Islamic and traditional laws (if tradition is overstepping Islam, the jirga rejects the tradition).

And it is the only detterance in Tribal enmity. It is the only form of law n order that can be respectfully implemented on any one, rich or poor, weak or strong, unlike our secular judicial system, which has no respect, and is 99% of the time works in the favour os strong.

Yes, I agree that common law should be applied no doubt. But we don't have one that is working, then why would we want to replace it with something that is working at the moment for the people of that area?

So unless and until we have a strong judcial system, that watchout on the bases of equality, and is able to make people respect it, we cannot banish this Jirga system, it will have severe consequences on law n order situation. As you already have said.

And yes I 100% agree, a refferrendum must be held to let people decide for themselves, if we are to believe in a democratic process and not dictatorial attitude. Hallelujah to that.

 

[maximus]

^^ I've already explained that the common law isn't perfect. I've suggested that we need to make sure that we try our utmost in providing justice through the common law. I'm not misinformed about the Jirga system. I know that the Jirga system like the common law is abused for petty gains by religious figures and corrupt elders. I'm not criticizing the Jirga system. I know that the Jirga if carried out properly and fairly is an excellent system that can deliver justice. What I'm pledging for is a common legal system across the country. Unless we don't take the first step the common law will never improve let alone implemented.

 

[Pashtun]

Yea but Taliban are against any kind of music, art, or entertainment like movies. What if Rahim Shah wants to perform a concert in his hometown of Swat, will Taliban let him, I dont think any singers can be safe in Swat anymore...Am I wrong?

In Lahore people cant survive without music, movies, art. Lahore is the cultural hub of Pakistan, I think if Taliban ever reaches Lahore, theyre going to have their hands full and will eventually give up.

Well, the issue of Music/Entertainment in Islam is little controversial among centrists, but any faithful would tell you that useless amusements are prohibited in Islam. We all know what Qur'an says about wasting precious time in amusements. We all know Islam does not approve amusements of such kind that is a wastage of time and takes you away from the Zikar of Allah (swt) or doing the right things for the betterment of the society.

Let me quote from Qur'an, An-Najm 53:57-62

The Day of Resurrection draws near, None besides Allah can avert it, (or advance it, or delay it). Do you then wonder at this recital (the Qur'an)? And you laugh at it and weep not, Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing, etc.). So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone).

In Tafseer of this Ayah, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Tafseer Ibn-e-Katheer said:

"Allah says (interpretation of the meaning) “Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)” – Sufyaan al-Thawri said, narrating from his father from Ibn ‘Abbaas: (this means) singing. This is Yemeni (dialect): ismad lana means ghan lana [sing to us]. This was also the view of ‘Ikrimah."

Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad (saw) said and I quote from Sahih Bukhari - Hadith # 7:494

"From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks, and the use of musical instruments as lawful. And (from them), there will be some who will stay near the side of a mountain, and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them.....

Furthermore, in Sunan of Abu Dawood, Hadith #4909, narrated by Abdullah ibn Mas'ud and I quote:

Salam ibn Miskin, quoting an old man who witnessed AbuWa'il in a wedding feast, said: They began to play, amuse and sing. He united the support of his hand round his knees that were drawn up, and said: I heard Abdullah (ibn Mas'ud) say: I heard the apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) say: Singing produces hypocrisy in the heart.

So you see, if we are to truly live by the essence of Islamic conduct of life, than I don't think the amusement (that is meant to waste the time by merely amusing people) has any place in a muslims life, as you know Muslim's life is an exam and this world as an examination centre. So such amusements (that you mentioned) are prohibited in Islam (if they waste your precious time that could be used else where in the zikar of Allah (Swt) or the betterment of the Society).

On the other hand, we only not recognizing the Islamic doctrine and accepting that it is not a good thing to waste the time in such amusements, but on top of that we are refusing to believe in the philosphy of Islam about this, just for our mere "amusement".

We have to acknowledge the fact and then seek forgiveness from Allah (swt) for what we can't control ourselves, and should push ourselves to adhere the norms of the Islam, that is the first and the last reason of us for being on this earth.

And as Kharian brother said, if Taliban reaches to Lahore, we have failed as a nation, I'd like to add that, even if they reach Peshawar (they are already in the outskirts) then we have failed as a nation, yet they reaching to Lahore.

Don't wish for things that are not good. You are young and energetic, use your energy in positive things that can change the fate of our nation, not some sort of phony wishes that Lahoris will deal with them because they love Music so much. I mean there was no need to show that muscle, save it for the time, that is soon coming upon us.

Salamoona

 

[Omar1984]

^^^ Bro I understand what you're saying but you really cant force someone to do something they dont want to. All Muslim countries have people who listen to music and sing, and Qawali is part of Pakistani culture... I think Taliban are evn against some of the instruments that are used in Qawali... so there's a difference in way of thinking between Taliban and other people of Pakistan. My point is yes we should worship Allah, pray 5 times a day, respect others, cover ourselves in decent manner...but we cant force people to do something they dont want to. We cant stop singers from singing, we cant stop painters from painting, we cant force people not to listen to music...ultimately it should be the person's decision. Pakistanis have their limits.

 

[Pashtun]

^^^ Bro I understand what you're saying but you really cant force someone to do something they dont want to. All Muslim countries have people who listen to music and sing, and Qawali is part of Pakistani culture... I think Taliban are evn against some of the instruments that are used in Qawali... so there's a difference in way of thinking between Taliban and other people of Pakistan. My point is yes we should worship Allah, pray 5 times a day, respect others, cover ourselves in decent manner...but we cant force people to do something they dont want to. We cant stop singers from singing, we cant stop painters from painting, we cant force people not to listen to music...ultimately it should be the person's decision. Pakistanis have their limits.

Oh absolutely, you cannot force people. Qur'an states 2:256: "Let there be no compulsion in religion...." and that is one of the reasons I differ with Talebans (please note when I say, Talebans, I am talking about the original movement, not these thugs currently hiding behind the name).

However, furthermore in the same ayah, Allah (Swt) says: "Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.

That means, the truth has been cleared from the error and given to you in form of Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad (saw), and Prophet (saw) tells us:

"From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks, and the use of musical instruments as lawful...."

You see, Prophet (saw) says the music instruments (with exception of Duff) will be considered lawful among his followers (which is not in a good sense but as a warning and objectively speaking to his Ummah that - It's not a good thing).

So perhaps, Talebans are coming from this end and forcing the ban, rather educating people about the teachings of Islam that wasting time in musical instruments and amusement activites are not recommended by Qur'an and then by Prophet Muhammad (saw).

However, it is our job to convey the message being the Ummah of Proophet Muhammad (saw), as the prophethood has been completed, so the message of truth to be conveyed by us, the other party rejects it or accepts it it's their choice as Allah (swt) in Qur'an 10:99says:

“So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in God’s sight are all of His servants.”

May Allah (swt) forgives us all for making unintentional sins.

 

[haviZsultan]

Come on brother Dimension, what are you talking about? how do you crush something that is scattered through out the region, that is supported by our very own security agencies for a decade like a snake of the sleeve, that is divided among several different parties (thugs to foreign agents to drug lords to those whom families have been killed by bombardment).

You cannot shoot a man who has a cancer. You have to cure it, and certainly the type of cure we are using, is absolutely spreading the cancer, not containing or curing it. We have already made a mess by killing women and children in Lal Masjid on the name of "crushing". Please, this is not the solution, it only increase the hate and resistance, which will be thoroughly cashed by our enemies.

What We need is our policies re-thought. We need to quit this honeymoon with war on Terror at once, before it's too late to begin with. We have to stop conquering our own country and give some sense of responsiblity to the parties involve in this mess by negotiating with them. Such emotional talk of crushing anything that raises a concern/complaint, is going to cost us dearly!

U r right but things have started seeming hopeless.

What should we do? Our people are dying daily because of a bunch of intolerant terrorists. Cant the Taliban be a little more understanding and c the trap it is to make muslims fight each other. Are they so brainless that they will kill so many and ruin Pakistan for their own purposes?

Dont you want your region to be more peaceful. Swat is turned into hell because of the taliban. How to quell the uprising and rebellion. I klnow the people in swat have major grievances with the government and the system of constant corruption and political crime and dont come out and verbally attack the taliban. I went there as a reporter. But I dont see a solution. Till when will this continue and till when will foreing intelligence continue using their stupidity for personal gains?

By the way your posts are some of the best on this forum. U should be in the think tank.

 

[Pashtun]

U r right but things have started seeming hopeless.

What should we do? Our people are dying daily because of a bunch of intolerant terrorists. Cant the Taliban be a little more understanding and c the trap it is to make muslims fight each other. Are they so brainless that they will kill so many and ruin Pakistan for their own purposes?

Very genuine inquiry indeed. To answer that, I must ask you to understand the classification of these militants. There are too many groups to categorize tho, but the umbrella group - to begin with, are not fighting for Islam. They are totally funded and supported by Anglo-American-Indo-Zionists nexus, for one and only one purpose, create anarchy and lawlessness. So they aren't going to "understand" that they are in a trap to kill their own muslims. They are plain and simple "mercenaries" of the nexus of evil I pointed out, out of only one thing.

Now there are too many jiyalays (that are also supported by ISI for their own reasons for decades) are in the group too, doing intel for ISI. So confusion further increases among the locals specially when they see Military at times taking no actions against the militants. So it's so complex, that even the die hard Muslims, who really have just emotions for Islam than the knowledge, also have joined in for the rule of Islam (brainwashed as we call it).

Now they didn't kill as many as we killed the civilians with the bombardment etc. So count another group in it as well, who have lost their families and vengence is on their head.

Dont you want your region to be more peaceful. Swat is turned into hell because of the taliban. How to quell the uprising and rebellion. I klnow the people in swat have major grievances with the government and the system of constant corruption and political crime and dont come out and verbally attack the taliban. I went there as a reporter. But I dont see a solution. Till when will this continue and till when will foreing intelligence continue using their stupidity for personal gains?

To me, peace is a small timeframe between two wars. It's not our thing, as they say in our lands. But the more domestication takes place, the more sense of peace prevails. So yeah, I guess, everyone wants peace!

Grievances with govt. is sort of a thing, that can go away with the change of the govt. you know, or changing the policy and offering some sense. For that matter anyone would have a grievance with the govt. anywhere in the pakistan if one is to be bombarded. But rest assure, they love Pakistan, and a little twist in the policy (which shows sense of responsiblity on the govt. part, will make everyone happy) as would be the case with anyone in the world. You only would want to sleep at someone's place, when you know you wont be harmed, or else there's no point in pretending to sleep while watching your back from your host.

What I always have written to ISPR and NWFP govt. about this issue is, Military operation was never an answer, it was simply a collective punishment that didn't work (and now we saw the result of the operation already). I recommended ISPR about almost a year ago that it is a situation of "Surgical Operation" with the help of locals and Intel. Since the enemy is not wearing uniforms and is not on a borderline somewhere. It is a guerrila war, they are scattered throughout the population, everywhere, they will fire at you and disappear among the public and you wouldn't know.

Hence the military operation miserablly failed without achieving the results, which was actually started to just please america anyways (without taking into conisderation the fact that America is trapping Pakistan Army into Catch-22 situation).

So it can only and only be resolved through dialogue. It was never a military thing. It was supposdely be done through dialogue and strengthening the government writ in the area through goodies, everyone love goodies you know.

It is never late. A dialogue must be held. A give n take deal must be made. So the pissed off people (playing in the hands of external enemy) can be turned back from the enemy to ourside of the river. Tribal elders must be supported with security and funding to raise the sense of responsibility. A strong intel followed by surgical operations (hit n disappear) be provided as an assisstance to local tribes. And rest, the locals will take care of it.

By the way your posts are some of the best on this forum. U should be in the think tank.

Thank you, but what is this Think Tank thingy?

 

[haviZsultan]

Very genuine inquiry indeed. To answer that, I must ask you to understand the classification of these militants. There are too many groups to categorize tho, but the umbrella group - to begin with, are not fighting for Islam. They are totally funded and supported by Anglo-American-Indo-Zionists nexus, for one and only one purpose, create anarchy and lawlessness. So they aren't going to "understand" that they are in a trap to kill their own muslims. They are plain and simple "mercenaries" of the nexus of evil I pointed out, out of only one thing.

Now there are too many jiyalays (that are also supported by ISI for their own reasons for decades) are in the group too, doing intel for ISI. So confusion further increases among the locals specially when they see Military at times taking no actions against the militants. So it's so complex, that even the die hard Muslims, who really have just emotions for Islam than the knowledge, also have joined in for the rule of Islam (brainwashed as we call it).

Now they didn't kill as many as we killed the civilians with the bombardment etc. So count another group in it as well, who have lost their families and vengeance is on their head.

The TET that would mean. Fazlullah's group is definitely is under the employee of foreign intelligence. He cannot destroy the heartland of Pashtun culture and tradition if he was not.

So the army operation and its irresponsible use of air strikes and artillary bombardment and shelling caused much more damage than the taliban in the region of Swat you would say? So the army should move out completely right?

To me, peace is a small timeframe between two wars. It's not our thing, as they say in our lands. But the more domestication takes place, the more sense of peace prevails. So yeah, I guess, everyone wants peace!

Grievances with govt. is sort of a thing, that can go away with the change of the govt. you know, or changing the policy and offering some sense. For that matter anyone would have a grievance with the govt. anywhere in the pakistan if one is to be bombarded. But rest assure, they love Pakistan, and a little twist in the policy (which shows sense of responsiblity on the govt. part, will make everyone happy) as would be the case with anyone in the world. You only would want to sleep at someone's place, when you know you wont be harmed, or else there's no point in pretending to sleep while watching your back from your host.

But with the corruption and criminal gangs that the government officials have for their personal gains must be eliminated as well... because obviously its a cycle. If people were not discontent in the first place there would be no support for Indian and CIA agents like Fazlullah acting like Maulvis and leaders in the first place. The issue is there has to be change. The government needs to re-assess itself and decide if it is there to steal as much and go away or there to adress the problems of the people and develop the region. Lack of development i would say is a region for almost all our problems including illiterate elements of society selling themselves to indian american and zionist intelligence who want to spread fasad in our regions.

What I always have written to ISPR and NWFP govt. about this issue is, Military operation was never an answer, it was simply a collective punishment that didn't work (and now we saw the result of the operation already). I recommended ISPR about almost a year ago that it is a situation of "Surgical Operation" with the help of locals and Intel. Since the enemy is not wearing uniforms and is not on a borderline somewhere. It is a guerrila war, they are scattered throughout the population, everywhere, they will fire at you and disappear among the public and you wouldn't know.

Yeah. You are right. They attack and disappear. Many political leaders and people who have stood against the taliban have been killed in exactly this way but the issue is how we can deal with them and the solution is what me and we are looking for. Frankly a person from the region was what i was searching for in the first place and u came along so lucky me eh?

Hence the military operation miserablly failed without achieving the results, which was actually started to just please america anyways (without taking into conisderation the fact that America is trapping Pakistan Army into Catch-22 situation).

I agree, Issue is army is more prepared for conventional war and are simply sitting ducks for the taliban. My friend says any man in uniform is a target for them and they attack ambush and run away before a proper response can be given. U might remember the tanks and APC's and extra firpower and airpower were not there when the first operations was initially launched but later on as losses in army mounted they started depending on every means possible and even were so stupid to ignore the collateral damage that would be caused. Then the army tried to use range and aerial bombardment to dislodge the militants from houses and places they had taken over etc. This caused even more civilian losses than could be imagined and seems to be alienating the people rather than win them which is the real idea. Winning hearts and minds is the real battle.

So it can only and only be resolved through dialogue. It was never a military thing. It was supposdely be done through dialogue and strengthening the government write in the area through goodies, everyone love goodies you know.

It is never late. A dialogue must be held. A give n take deal must be made. So the pissed off people (playing in the hands of external enemy) can be turned back from the enemy to ourside of the river. Tribal elders must be supported with security and funding to raise the sense of responsibility. A strong intel followed by surgical operations (hit n disappear) be provided as an assisstance to local tribes. And rest, the locals will take care of it.

But the elements of the axis you mentioned earlier are very unlikely to stop promoting anarchy in the region and the task of dealing with them will ultimately come to the lashkars in the end. But question is can the lashkars take action considering the fact that leaders of the tribes live in absolute fear of the taliban? For example this is an article i read a while ago and it greatly worried me. The taliban know the identity of the leaders and strike anywhere with their hit and run attacks and leave the leaders dead. Then their suicide bombers can strike at jirgas wiping out almost all those preparing for the operation. The suicide attack on the salarzai was an example i would say anyway this is an article:

Taliban consolidate control in Arakzai tribal agency
By Bill RoggioDecember 28, 2008 1:17 AM

The Taliban have consolidated their control of the Arakzai tribal agency over the past week as the Pakistani military is redeploying troops from the insurgency-infested northwest to the eastern border with India.

The Arakzai Taliban, under the control of Hakeemullah Mehsud, has imposed sharia or Islamic law throughout the tribal agency over the past week.

The Taliban declared sharia in Upper Arakzai on Dec. 22. Tribesmen in Upper Arakzai were instructed to bring their legal disputes to Taliban courts and were ordered the end to deforestation. On Dec. 28, the Taliban in Lower Arakzai used "loudspeakers in mosques to announce the decree and were asking the people to bring their issues to ‘Taliban Islamic courts,” Daily Times reported. The Taliban "banned women from visiting bazaars and have imposed a complete ban on TV and CDs and video centers in the agency."

The enforcement of sharia applied to 16 of Arakzai's 21 tribes, Daily Times reported. "The other five tribes reside in areas where the Taliban have not announced sharia enforcement as yet."

Daily Times attempted to contact Arakzai's political agent for comment on the Taliban's declaration of sharia but has not received a reply. The political agent is the government's senior representative in a tribal agency.

The Arakzai Taliban are under the control of Hakeemullah Mehsud, a senior lieutenant of Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud and the cousin of Qari Hussain, the notorious Taliban commander who trains child suicide bombers in South Waziristan.

Hakeemullah is a rising star in the Pakistani Taliban. He also commands the Taliban in Kurram and Khyber tribal agencies. In Khyber, Hakeemullah has rivaled the Lashkar-e-Islam for control, and has been behind the major attacks on NATO supply columns and shipping terminals in Peshawar.

Hakeemullah made his mark in Arakzai in the beginning of 2008 after his forces battled security forces in the city of Darra Adam Khel and in neighboring Kohat. The Taliban took control of the Indus Highway and the Kohat Tunnel, the north-south artery that connects Peshawar with the southern part of the province. The military was able to reopen the tunnel and the highway after the Taliban held it for almost a month. Scores of soldiers were killed or captured, at least seventy were executed. In August, the Taliban again closed the Kohat Tunnel down for more than a month.

Hakeemullah was behind the Oct. 10 suicide attacked on a tribal meeting in Arakzai. The tribal leaders met to organize an anti-Taliban lashkar, or tribal militia. The suicide attack killed 110 tribal leaders and wounded more than 100. The nascent tribal resistance was shattered.

The attack on the tribal meeting was followed with acts of intimidation. Eight anti-Taliban tribal leaders were ambushed and murdered on Oct. 23. , Two tribal members were murdered and beheaded on Nov. 10. Seven civilians and policemen were killed in a suicide attack that targeted a Shia tribal meeting on Dec. 5.

Over the past several years the Pakistani Taliban has imposed sharia the tribal agencies of Bajaur, Mohmand, and North and South Waziristan, as well as in the settled district of Swat. The Taliban have also pushed for the government to impose sharia in Malakand and throughout much of the northwest.

The Taliban have use sharia to spread their influence in the areas under its control. In these regions, the Taliban establish administrations parallel to existing government institutions. Courts, recruiting centers, tax offices, and security forces are built up. The Taliban use these institutions to fight against Pakistani forces as well against Coalition forces in Afghanistan. Training camps and safe houses have been established throughout the northwest. Al Qaeda and a host of Pakistani and central and south Asia terror groups use the region to train and plot attacks against the West, India and other governments.

As the Taliban continue to consolidate control in the northwest and NATO supply lines to Afghanistan come under increasing threat, the Pakistani military has begun to redeploy Army forces from the region. The14th Army Division, which is based in the Bajaur-Dir region, has begun to withdraw an estimated 20,000 forces from the region and is redeploying to the eastern border with India. Pakistan is taking precautions as tensions with India rise over last month's terror assault on Mumbai, which was launched by Lashkar-e-Taiba from within Pakistan.

The Pakistani Army may pull up to one-third of its forces from the Northwest Frontier Province, Ravi Rikhye, the editor of Orbat.com told The Long War Journal. Rikhye estimated that 14 to 15 brigades have been deployed in the province. Only nine of these brigades remain in the province, he said. Rikhye noted that not all of these troops have left the region and that a redeployment of this size will take some time.

The Taliban have welcomed the Pakistani Army's movement of forces from the region and said it has begun negotiations with the government. Mullah Omar, the chief spokesman for Baitullah Mehsud and the Pakistani Taliban, said the group would halt attacks so the military did not need a reason to stay in the northwest.

"Omar claimed that back-channel negotiations with the government were under way in Swat, Bajaur, Darra Adam Khel [Arakzai], and Mohmand tribal region and said he was hopeful of a positive outcome," Dawn reported.

Pakistani Taliban vows to battle India - The Long War Journal
Baitullah promised to provide hundreds of suicide bombers and thousands of fighters to back the military in event of war with India, and said the Taliban would secure the eastern border with Afghanistan.

So if they keep striking dead the tribal elders and leaders then who is going to prepare them to fight the taliban? Can the lashkers really deal with this situation because it is a fact that some fighting will obviously be required but if the taliban are going to eliminate all rivals in such a barbaric manner then a major issue obviously exists.

Thank you, but what is this Think Tank thingy?

Thansk for providing an analysis of the situation. Greatly appreciated. Think tank is a group on this forum for sensible people who dont go off in a fit of rage hearing of Pakistanis dying like me i would guess... think tank is exactly that, a think tank for sensible people whose thoughts are valueble to the PDF forum.