CV-18 Fujian - Type 003 Aircraft Carrier News & Discussions

[samsara]

I gonna present in consolidated form some latest interesting posts by members at SDF for our own discussion here, at PDF -- colored emphasis is mine.

(Temstar):
There seems to be a lot of rumours floating around on CJDBY that a second 003 is on the books and in fact construction may already be under way at Jiangnan Shipyard. Some say there are modules at Jiangnan that looks like they could be pieces of another 003 hull but I don't have a CJDBY account to see the photos for myself, anyone?

Here's a fresh thread on this topic just today [20201207]: https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2671466

I also read this piece last week that hinted at the same thing, although I don't think that's all that strong of a statement:

China is Working Hard to Become a Navy Superpower

The USN became the world’s largest, most powerful navy at some point during World War II, and has held that position without serious challenge since.

nationalinterest.org

Six 055 would run against POP3's claim that 14th Five Year Plan calls for building of 8 new 055, and AFAIK also 5 additional 075 instead of 3 claimed here. So take it with a grain of salt.

That said there doesn't seem to be any visible movement on 004 aside from expansion of facilities at Dalian. So if there were plan to build two carriers ASAP (given geopolitics at the moment) than another 003 would make sense. It would also fit with PLAN tradition of building new design a pair at a time. What do we think?

(Higgle):
Anything from fzgfzy we can take with a grain of salt. Anything from the National Interest we can take with a bucket of salt. I would believe pop3 over whatever that article claims any day of the week.

That said, fzgfzy has some interesting claims here (even though none of them have proven accurate so far):

1. Prep work in Dalian for CVN construction facilities still underway (as expected).

2. Second 003 possibly under construction in Shanghai. This is unexpected as we all thought a second 003 (if there will be a second) would be built in Dalian.

Now, what stood out to me was this section:

对于同级003，这个如果有的话，搞不好已经开了，我之前（在15年吧）说过，上海这事不是江南一家产分段的。所以如果有第二条，可能应该巳经产了。

"Regarding the second 003, if it exists, difficult to say if construction's started, *as I mentioned previously (in 2015), that modules are not manufactured solely by JNCX.* So if there is a second, it's possible it's already being constructed."

[Alternate translation of above line: "For the same 003, in the case if there is another one, it may probably be already started. As I have said previously (15 years ago), this matter in Shanghai is not a property division of Jiangnan family. Therefore, in the case if there is a second one, it might probably be under progress."]


Anyway, I wouldn't put too much faith in his claims. But he does float some interesting ideas, some of which have proven correct in the past, whether by coincidence or not.

(Tam):
HDZ's Changxing facility is right next to JNCX. In fact, its not clear where Jiangnan [JNCX] ends and HDZ begins. Its possible that the dock where the 003 is sitting on, is on HDZ's slice of the island, due to the CMA CGM containerships and the large LNG carriers that were contracted to HDZ being right next to 003. It may not matter that much since both are in the same CSSC, now CSG, banner, so they maybe sharing facilities and resources. It can be possible that some modules are being made in the HDZ Changxing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HDZ: Hudong Zhonghua Shipbuilding (Group) Co., Ltd
CSSC: China State Shipbuilding Corporation
CSG: China Shipping Group
Changxing: Changxing Island, located in the mouth of the Yangtze River to the north of urban Shanghai (app. 5 km), an island within Shanghai Municipality

It always teases my thought WHERE's the role of DALIAN shipyard after the CV-17 -- I already questioned that in my earlier post quite some time ago. Will the large and experienced shipyard be sitting idly in the China's carrier endeavor? I just don't think so. Seems now some light is starting to come out... expect to learn something within the 1H 2021, or even sooner.

Then the notion of the SECOND 003 -- it's just quite logical if China really wanna build its carrier fleet. If China only builds one after another, it will take very long time to build the needed size of carrier fleet. And what a waste of resource if every factor is already there to build more, but then proceed so slow by just building one by one... it simply takes too long time and not comes into senses! Not even the reasons as articulated by some here or there that due to the completely new design... China needs to complete one first, try, operate, get the feedbacks... complete the cycle then just proceed with the next... how many decades then to build a sizeable carrier fleet if so???

Well, well... the 2021 will definitely be the fascinating year to witness...

 

[Han Patriot]

I gonna present in consolidated form some latest interesting posts by members at SDF for our own discussion here, at PDF -- colored emphasis is mine.

(Temstar):
There seems to be a lot of rumours floating around on CJDBY that a second 003 is on the books and in fact construction may already be under way at Jiangnan Shipyard. Some say there are modules at Jiangnan that looks like they could be pieces of another 003 hull but I don't have a CJDBY account to see the photos for myself, anyone?

Here's a fresh thread on this topic just today [20201207]: https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2671466

I also read this piece last week that hinted at the same thing, although I don't think that's all that strong of a statement:

China is Working Hard to Become a Navy Superpower

The USN became the world’s largest, most powerful navy at some point during World War II, and has held that position without serious challenge since.

nationalinterest.org

Six 055 would run against POP3's claim that 14th Five Year Plan calls for building of 8 new 055, and AFAIK also 5 additional 075 instead of 3 claimed here. So take it with a grain of salt.

That said there doesn't seem to be any visible movement on 004 aside from expansion of facilities at Dalian. So if there were plan to build two carriers ASAP (given geopolitics at the moment) than another 003 would make sense. It would also fit with PLAN tradition of building new design a pair at a time. What do we think?

(Higgle):
Anything from fzgfzy we can take with a grain of salt. Anything from the National Interest we can take with a bucket of salt. I would believe pop3 over whatever that article claims any day of the week.

That said, fzgfzy has some interesting claims here (even though none of them have proven accurate so far):

1. Prep work in Dalian for CVN construction facilities still underway (as expected).

2. Second 003 possibly under construction in Shanghai. This is unexpected as we all thought a second 003 (if there will be a second) would be built in Dalian.

Now, what stood out to me was this section:


"Regarding the second 003, if it exists, difficult to say if construction's started, *as I mentioned previously (in 2015), that modules are not manufactured solely by JNCX.* So if there is a second, it's possible it's already being constructed."

[Alternate translation of above line: "For the same 003, in the case if there is another one, it may probably be already started. As I have said previously (15 years ago), this matter in Shanghai is not a property division of Jiangnan family. Therefore, in the case if there is a second one, it might probably be under progress."]


Anyway, I wouldn't put too much faith in his claims. But he does float some interesting ideas, some of which have proven correct in the past, whether by coincidence or not.

(Tam):
HDZ's Changxing facility is right next to JNCX. In fact, its not clear where Jiangnan [JNCX] ends and HDZ begins. Its possible that the dock where the 003 is sitting on, is on HDZ's slice of the island, due to the CMA CGM containerships and the large LNG carriers that were contracted to HDZ being right next to 003. It may not matter that much since both are in the same CSSC, now CSG, banner, so they maybe sharing facilities and resources. It can be possible that some modules are being made in the HDZ Changxing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HDZ: Hudong Zhonghua Shipbuilding (Group) Co., Ltd
CSSC: China State Shipbuilding Corporation
CSG: China Shipping Group
Changxing: Changxing Island, located in the mouth of the Yangtze River to the north of urban Shanghai (app. 5 km), an island within Shanghai Municipality

It always teases my thought WHERE's the role of DALIAN shipyard after the CV-17 -- I already questioned that in my earlier post quite some time ago. Will the large and experienced shipyard be sitting idly in the China's carrier endeavor? I just don't think so. Seems now some light is starting to come out... expect to learn something within the 1H 2021, or even sooner.

Then the notion of the SECOND 003 -- it's just quite logical if China really wanna build its carrier fleet. If China only builds one after another, it will take very long time to build the needed size of carrier fleet. And what a waste of resource if every factor is already there to build more, but then proceed so slow by just building one by one... it simply takes too long time and not comes into senses! Not even the reasons as articulated by some here or there that due to the completely new design... China needs to complete one first, try, operate, get the feedbacks... complete the cycle then just proceed with the next... how many decades then to build a sizeable carrier fleet if so???

Well, well... the 2021 will definitely be the fascinating year to witness...

I thought I opened a thread this year and told you guys Dalian is building the fourth carrier? My colleague used to work there and he told me they started work a few months back.

 

[samsara]

From the fresh thread mentioned earlier:
https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2671466

a poster with ID: edi100 explains the underlying logic why each class of carrier must have at least two units:

不是因为有钱，是因为航母这种装备，必须2到3艘一组，否则没法正常使用。航母有大修期，如果只有一艘的话大修期的时候，舰载机联队会空出来没处训练。
整个战斗力就没有了。
所以同型号必须2艘以上一组。
001,002滑跃起飞，没法训练003弹射航母上的舰载机联队。
必须有004与003互为补充。
中国是因为暂时不需要远洋部署，所以可以两艘一组，如果要远洋部署的话，就必须3艘一组。
所以这不是练手，而是确实需要。按照最低需求造，每个级别最起码需要2艘。003,004同一个级别。

It is not because of being well-off, it is because the equipment like aircraft carriers must be in two or three in a group, otherwise they cannot be used normally. Carriers have overhaul cycles, and if there is only one carrier, the carrier-based aircraft wing won't have place for training during the overhaul period.
The whole combat effectiveness will be gone.
Therefore, the same model or class must at least be in two sets in a group.
The 001 & 002 have the sky jump take-off, unable to train carrier based aircraft wing on the 003 catapult aircraft carrier.
You must have the 003 and 004 to complement each other.
Because China does not need ocean going deployment for the time being, it can deploy in groups of two ships. If it wants to deploy offshore, it has to deploy in groups of three ships.
So it's not a practice, it's really necessary. According to the minimum requirements, at least two carriers per class. The 003 and 004 belong to the same class.

I thought I opened a thread this year and told you guys Dalian is building the fourth carrier? My colleague used to work there and he told me they started work a few months back.

This one is also part of the guessing game at this point of time, whether the 004 will be made in Dalian or Jiangnan, I read at a glance there is conflicting info in the CD. So I'll just wait

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Here is the original plan:

Type 001 (Varyag) -> Type 002 (CV with steam catapults) -> Type 003 (CVN with steam catapults or EMALS)

They cancelled the original Type 002, and created the Type 001A for the contingent situation and replaced the original Type 002, and finally become the current Type 002.

The current Type 003 under construction is still the original Type 003.

And the status of the Type 004 is still unclear, maybe it is just a designation made by the military fans, or perhaps it doesn't exist yet.

 

[Han Patriot]

From the fresh thread mentioned earlier:
https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2671466

a poster with ID: edi100 explains the underlying logic why each class of carrier must have at least two units:



It is not because of being well-off, it is because the equipment like aircraft carriers must be in two or three in a group, otherwise they cannot be used normally. Carriers have overhaul cycles, and if there is only one carrier, the carrier-based aircraft wing won't have place for training during the overhaul period.
The whole combat effectiveness will be gone.
Therefore, the same model or class must at least be in two sets in a group.
The 001 & 002 have the sky jump take-off, unable to train carrier based aircraft wing on the 003 catapult aircraft carrier.
You must have the 003 and 004 to complement each other.
Because China does not need ocean going deployment for the time being, it can deploy in groups of two ships. If it wants to deploy offshore, it has to deploy in groups of three ships.
So it's not a practice, it's really necessary. According to the minimum requirements, at least two carriers per class. The 003 and 004 belong to the same class.



This one is also part of the guessing game at this point of time, whether the 004 will be made in Dalian or Jiangnan, I read at a glance there is conflicting info in the CD. So I'll just wait

We will know in a yeaar or two, i believe China will spread the workload, one North one South.

 

[Deino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1335866106750255104

 

[JSCh]

From big cat,

齐天大猫哥手绘专用号
32分钟前 来自 iPhone客户端
回复@遥远的它们:我国核动力船三步走已经成定局，第一步海工产品已经交付使用一年，第二步核动力特种船巳经下水准备交付，第二条准备下水（注意特种船可没限定破冰船），第三步的核动力航母在几年之后。这和美帝没关系，美帝一样搞个八堆企业。而我们相应能力的核动力特种船持续出来。请注意第一第二步已经实现了。

Qitian big cat brother hand-painted special number
32 minutes ago from the iPhone client

Reply to @遥远的They: The three-step process of our nuclear-powered ships development process is a foregone conclusion and underway. The first step of having marine nuclear propulsion products have already been delivered for one year, the second step of having nuclear-powered special purpose ship has been launched and is ready for delivery, and the second ship is ready to be launched (note that special purpose ships may not be limited to icebreakers), the third step of nuclear-powered aircraft carrier would be a few years later. How China choose this steps has nothing to do with the U.S., who has also chosen to set up eight reactors enterprises. And our nuclear-powered special purpose ships with corresponding capabilities continue to come out. Please note that the first and second steps have already been implemented.

Somewhat off-topic weibo post from Big-cat. FYI, he/she has always maintain that 003 is conventional power. Therefore installation of 003 main power refer to conventional power.

齐天大猫哥手绘专用号​

7分钟前 来自 iPhone客户端​

确定消息：03航母主动力安装完毕。我国海洋核动力三步走依然前行。第一步核动力海工平台已服役。第二步，一大波核动力特种船（2万吨级、3万吨级）即将到来。​

Qitian big cat brother hand-painted special number
7 minutes ago

Confirmed news: The main power of the 003 aircraft carrier is installed. my country's marine nuclear power is still moving forward in three steps. The first nuclear-powered offshore platform has been put into service. In the second step, a large wave of nuclear-powered special ships (20,000-ton class and 30,000-ton class) is coming.

 

[Figaro]

Somewhat off-topic weibo post from Big-cat. FYI, he/she has always maintain that 003 is conventional power. Therefore installation of 003 main power refer to conventional power.

齐天大猫哥手绘专用号​

7分钟前 来自 iPhone客户端​

确定消息：03航母主动力安装完毕。我国海洋核动力三步走依然前行。第一步核动力海工平台已服役。第二步，一大波核动力特种船（2万吨级、3万吨级）即将到来。​

Qitian big cat brother hand-painted special number
7 minutes ago

Confirmed news: The main power of the 003 aircraft carrier is installed. my country's marine nuclear power is still moving forward in three steps. The first nuclear-powered offshore platform has been put into service. In the second step, a large wave of nuclear-powered special ships (20,000-ton class and 30,000-ton class) is coming.

View attachment 695159​

I thought he was no longer regarded as credible?

 

[JSCh]

I thought he was no longer regarded as credible?

For some, yes that is true. But he/she is still moderator of cjdby.net, so maybe he has more access to info?

 

[vi-va]

I thought he was no longer regarded as credible?

I have said many times previously, tonnage has nothing to do with nuclear power or conventional power.
I hope 003 is nuclear powered, but not realistic imo.

Conventional power has no limit, 80k or 100k doesn't matter much.

I say this because someone working in the industry told me.

 

[samsara]

I have said many times previously, tonnage has nothing to do with nuclear power or conventional power.
I hope 003 is nuclear powered, but not realistic imo.

Conventional power has no limit, 80k or 100k doesn't matter much.

I say this because someone working in the industry told me.

The more I pay attention on this subject and the more I read around lately, I found out the more likely the 003 and 004 will remain be CVs, but the 005 will definitely be CVN -- no one questions that 005! But I don't want to overemphasize the power thing, let the time be the unswerving revealer!

Be it CV/CVN, I am just happy to witness the birth of each of them!!! And moreover they'll be significantly more sizeable than 001-002!! I am just happy for that very reality! And let's not being swayed away by this issue upon all the Chinese achievements in carrier things in such short span of time...

 

[vi-va]

The more I pay attention on this subject and the more I read around lately, I found out the more likely the 003 and 004 will remain be CVs, but the 005 will definitely be CVN -- no one questions that 005! But I don't want to overemphasize the power thing, let the time be the unswerving revealer!

Be it CV/CVN, I am just happy to witness the birth of each of them!!! And moreover they'll be significantly more sizeable than 001-002!! I am just happy for that very reality! And let's not being swayed away by this issue upon all the Chinese achievements in carrier things in such short span of time...

VN or CVN really doesn't matter that much nowadays. The future of SEA POWER has little to do with aircraft carrier. H-20 will dominate.

Aircraft carriers still are important for power projection, especially safe guard our oversea interest.

 

[samsara]

VN or CVN really doesn't matter that much nowadays. The future of SEA POWER has little to do with aircraft carrier. H-20 will dominate.

Aircraft carriers still are important for power projection, especially safe guard our oversea interest.

Yeah, CVBG for power projection + psyche --> mobile power display. Useful, needed but not such decisive.

However, in the Chinese case, indeed the more important thing will be the genuinely deterrent Nuke Triad: more nuke warheads + delivery means both strategic and tactical ones. And the coming few dozens of 096 SSBN with JL-3 will be a very good peace keeping force for China, also 095 SSN will be important too, to form the very capable submarine force.

The effective, capable and reliable Nuke Triad force will essentially ensure the true peace for China!!

 

[vi-va]

Yeah, CVBG for power projection + psyche --> mobile power display. Useful, needed but not such decisive.

However, in the Chinese case, indeed the more important thing will be the genuinely deterrent Nuke Triad: more nuke warheads + delivery means both strategic and tactical ones. And the coming few dozens of 096 SSBN with JL-3 will be a very good peace keeping force for China, also 095 SSN will be important too, to form the very capable submarine force.

The effective, capable and reliable Nuke Triad force will essentially ensure the true peace for China!!

1. No matter how many nukes we have, US is 12000 km away from us.
2. US nukes can be less than 1000 km away from us potentially, which is Okinawa. US has the options open to deploy nukes forward, we don't.
3. We need to penetrate THAAD like systems, which has already been deployed forward in South Korea. There is no way we can deploy THAAD like system in Canada or Mexco.
4. The more nukes we have, the eager Japan ask more protection and safety which make sense. Either from US or themselves, which means remilitarized Japan and nuke armed Japan. Just like how Pakistan responded to India.
5. Another potential damage for more nukes is China-Russia relationship. The more nukes we have, the more suspicious Russian feels. The conventional power balance is on our side, but nukes deterrence is on Russia side, that's the foundation of our relationship.
6. China can have either certain degree of trust of Russians or equal nuclear deterrence. We can't have both.

I did my nuclear strategy homework some years ago, no good options imo.

 

[samsara]

1. No matter how many nukes we have, US is 12000 km away from us.
2. US nukes can be less than 1000 km away from us potentially, which is Okinawa. US has the options open to deploy nukes forward, we don't.
3. We need to penetrate THAAD like systems, which has already been deployed forward in South Korea. There is no way we can deploy THAAD like system in Canada or Mexco.
4. The more nukes we have, the eager Japan ask more protection and safety which make sense. Either from US or themselves, which means remilitarized Japan and nuke armed Japan. Just like how Pakistan responded to India.
5. Another potential damage for more nukes is China-Russia relationship. The more nukes we have, the more suspicious Russian feels. The conventional power balance is on our side, but nukes deterrence is on Russia side, that's the foundation of our relationship.
6. China can have either certain degree of trust of Russians or equal nuclear deterrence. We can't have both.

I did my nuclear strategy homework some years ago, no good options imo.

I won't distract further this 003 thread after this one, but I had posted earlier in this thread... that all the conventional stuffs won't deter a mad domination seeker under decaying condition to suddenly attack using its overwhelming nuke stockpiles to wipe out its peer rival in order to maintain its supremacy when the opposite is deemed as having no enough stocks to send back adequate deterrence -- that is unable to exert the true MAD doctrine.

When the strongest rival is wiped out, the sick man then becomes quite a healthy man for all others will live in terrible fear and do what it commands and feed the beast with all the nutrients to get strong and healthy again, at any price & sacrifice!! And I don't appreciate at all that deliberately being weak brings any value under current mad mad, wild wild west style world. THINK why FAS deliberately keeps on reporting a meager stockpile of China until today (they just released their latest report in Dec 2020 -- I posted in Missile thread). As a major power with the largest population, No. 1 or 2 economy depends on yardstick (and pretty soon be the largest one on whatever yardstick) and No.2 in landmass, the safety, survival and existential continuity of the longest continuous civilization on Earth should lie on its own hands and not relying on any other! well, I am out and won't reply further on this matter here at 003 thread.