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Current Tensions in Xinjiang-China

What I don't understand is, China is a great Ally to Pakistan of its entire existence (Pakistan existance). If they are going against them whose gonna be Pakistans friend then ?

US
Middle East
Iran
Russia
South America
Europe
Australia
India
Israel

Let me remind you Pakistan has more enemies than it has trustworthy friends
How is it so hard to comprehend, Pakistan being a Muslim nation, China a great ally can help the Chinese to resolve it peacefully

I do also think the western media has played with some people here just how they played around with Iran. Its there game to demoralise a country that seem to be a threat.
 
Don't try to compare the Chinese human farm to any other countries.

Your right.....china has nowhere near the same amount of slums as india.

Unlike China where gvt. is importing Hans in large numbers to skew the natural demographics is exactly opposite of India's policies in Kashmir. Nobody from other state can make permanent residence inside Kashmir under the Indian constitution. India wants a Kashmir of the Kashmiris but inside the framework of Indian constitution. Chinese Hans are occupying Xinjiang with their civilian invasion. I know Xinjiang is very developed as compared to Kashmir, BUT I also know that all those big industries, apartments and roads are serving the Hans, not the local Uighurs. Uighurs hardly get any jobs in thier own motherland and their rights are trampled by the Hans. Chinese = Hans. I don't think any other ethenic group gets any reasonable share of China's economic development. And that's the truth in Tibet too...where Tibetans can't even worship and Hans harvest their natural resources and lands.

How has every tom dick and indian has become an expert on the han chinese?

Your just parroting western-indian rubbish with no knowledge on the subject......have u ever met a chinese muslim?

By the way pakistan kashmir has the same restriction......non state subjects can not buy land in azad kashmir.


AND..

Massacre in an ethnic conflict is N0T comparable to massacre as a state policy. In China the later is true.

So the thousand and thousand killed and raped by the indian army is the same as a dayfull of riot in one chinese city where the majority of the dead where non muslims......:crazy:
 
Sorry for being naive but i fail to see the difference.

So if tomorrow the UN passed a resolution saying XingJang province is disputed will you then support the Ughirs ?
But untill then you will not support them!

Is that what you are saying ?

The same way if the UN passed a vote and said Arunachal Pradesh, Nagaland, Manipur, Mizoram, Tripura, Meghalaya, and Assam where disputed we woulsd support the UN but up until then shall we call it indians internal affair.
 
Now I want to get to the meat of your argument as this is the most appetizing part of the debate.
....

If this is the quality of your research, with due respect, you need be more serious in order to gain a footage in any academia of any sort.

Let me quote the same source that you quote, but more completely:
Xiongnu raids continued periodically in the subsequent period, but all references to the tribe disappear after the 5th century. The dominant nomad people in the Mongolian steppe in the 7th century, the Tujue, were identified with the Turks and claimed to be descended from the Xiongnu. A number of Xiongnu customs do suggest Turkish affinity, which has led some historians to suggest that the western Xiongnu may have been the ancestors of the European Turks of later centuries. Others believe that the Xiongnu are the Huns, who invaded the Roman Empire in the 5th century. Though possible, this view cannot be substantiated. The graves of several chanyu (Xiongnu chiefs) excavated in the Selenga River valley in southern Siberia have been found to contain remains of Chinese, Iranian, and Greek textiles, indicating a wide trade between the Xiongnu and distant peoples.
Xiongnu (people) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

BTW, Chanyu is also a generic name like “official” or “officer” in Xiongnu system. There are high level Chanyus and low level Chanyus.

In your article, you imply that Uighurs are Xiongnu in some sense, that is wrong, at least not quite correct. You further deduce that Xiongnu’s land is Uighur’s land. That is even more ridiculous.

1. What is Xiongnu?
Xiongnu (or Hsiung-nu) was a derogatory name (I believe, as Chinese characters are in most cases pictographic) coined by the ancient Chinese, literally meaning “ferocious slaves”. This is a generic name that contains a collection of nomadic tribes with many different races and locations in north and northwest of ancient China. For instance, in the Western Zhou(周) period(about 1046B.C.-771B.C.) Xiongnu was also called Hunyi(混夷), meaning “mixed barbarians”. (Note that, this is only a simplified translation. Ancient Chinese called “Barbarians” with many different names based on their locations, etc.)

Westerner thus said:
Origin
The Xiongnu Tribes or the Xiongnu People (old: Hsiung-nu) are often identified with the Huns that invaded Europe in the 4th century and with the White Huns (Hephthalites) that invaded northeastern India. Although there might be similarities in the name of these two people, it must be considered that the name of a mighty nomad tribe (Mongols, Tartars) was often used for very different ethnic people. Pulleyblank has shown that the language of the Xiongnu - of which we possess some words and terms preserved in Chinese literature - was related to the Siberian ethnics (Samoyeds) in the River Yennisej area, and not to the Mongols or Turks, while the Hun hords of Attila that tried to conquer Europe were surely Proto-Turks. The own name of the Xiongnu might have been Hungnor or Hunoch, a word that Chinese people could neither pronounce nor write and hence created the Chinese word Hungnu (modern pronunciation [çjvŋnu], Wade-Giles: Hsiung-nu). The syllable "hu" like in Hu 胡 is often used for barbarian, i.e. non-Chinese people.
Chinese History - The Xiongnu (www.chinaknowledge.org)

Part of Xiongnu actually assimilated themselves into Chinese. According to your logic, the Chinese at least have equal rights to ET.

A typical such example is 刘渊 (Liu Yuan, ?-310 AD) whose ancestors were awarded Chinese emperor’s surname Liu and belonged to South Xiongnu (in contrast to North Xiongnu at that time). 308 AD,(304 in some articles) Liu Yuan established a small state also called Han, because he believed he inherited from already finished Han Dynasty. It was just one of 16 states during the Age of Fragmentation and vanished later in China.

2. Relationship between Xiongnu and Uighur, and the formation of Uighur.
There is some indication that Uighur ancestors are a mixture of many tribes, some of these may belong to Xiongnu. It is illogical to say that Uighur is the only descendant of Xiongnu,or Uighur is ancient Xiongnu, as Xiongnu is a collection of tribes. If so, by above facts (emperor Liu Yuan of South Xiongnu), modern Chinese are also decedents of Xiongnu and is legitimate owner of Xinjiang. lol

The below quote is a true reflection of history as to when Uighur is actually formed as a national.
In the Age of Fragmentation, the Uyghur were not known as a separate group, merely as one of the 15 tribes of the Tiele. After the rise of the Tujue (Turkut), the Tiele became their subjects. In 742 (during the Tianbao reign of the Tang dynasty), the Uyghur (then known as the Huihe 回纥) rose up, vanquished the Turkut and conquered their lands. In 788, they changed their name to Huigu or Huihu 回鹘.
Ethnic origins of Uygurs/Uyghurs/Uigurs, etc. - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum

BTW, please don’t mix Xiongnu with Tujue (Turkut).


This is what an anti-communist ET website has to say
The Uighurs is one of the ancient Turkic peoples. They settled on territory of Eastern Turkestan (at present Xinjiang-Uighur Autonomous Region of Peoples Republic of China), and of present Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan long time ago. Nowadays the population of the Uighurs is about 8-10 millions. The Uighur language belongs to the Qarluq group of the Turkic languages. There are 3 stages in history of the Uighur language:
1. The Ancient stage consisting of 2 periods: the Most Ancient (up to the 5th century AD) and the Ancient (the 6-11th centuries) ones;
2. The Medieval stage breaking up for 2 periods: the Early Medieval (the 11-14th centuries) and the Medieval (the 14-18 th centuries) ones;
3. The Modern stage divided into the New (the 18-19th centuries) and the Newest (the 20th centuries) ones.
At various stages of historical evolution the Uighurs created a number of states. The First Uighur Qaghanat was established in Khanghaj in 323. It existed 200 years. The Second Uighur Qaghanat was founded in 523 and existed 80 years. It was destroyed by the Turkic Qaghanat in 603. In 743 the Third Uighur Qaghanat was built on the ashes of the Eastern-Turkic Qaghanat located on territory of the present Northern Mongolia. It was ruined in struggle with the ancient Khaqases in 840. The Third Uighur Qaghanat was a feudal state with the tribal vestiges.
The Uighurs / History

According to this, their national history can mostly be traced back to 5AD.

In comparison, this is the maps of Chinese sphere of control in Northwest during that time before the formation of Uighur(206BC - 8AD).




BTW, recent discovery of an ancient mummies in Xinjiang (The Mummies of Xinjiang | Archaeology | DISCOVER Magazine ) inadvertently antagonizes some people, because it proves further that Uighurs are not the only native to this land.

BTW again, Chinese history is not and can not be monopolized by Chinese government and parties of any sorts. This history is a result of all scholars with various political backgrounds from across the world, and is backed up by hard evidences and proofs, of course with many questions still remain unanswered. Please point out which source I quoted was from Chinese government that is in contradiction to academic research. Will quotes from terrorist ETIM web site make you feel much happier?

BTW thrice, if twisting history is because Uighurs are Muslims, that is what people call “religious extremist”. In China, Muslims live and do business all over the places. Chinese citizens, regardless of their believes, can call anywhere in China their home.

Let's promote human rights and social equality in Xinjiang together, and stop doing anything counter-productive!
 
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By Chris Buckley Chris Buckley – Sat Jul 11, 11:36 am ET

URUMQI, China (Reuters) – China raised the death toll from ethnic rioting in Xinjiang, giving for the first time the ethnicity of the dead, and a big security presence in the city at the center of the strife prevented protests on Saturday.

The official Xinhua news agency said 184 people had died in the July 5 riots in Urumqi, the Xinjiang regional capital, and 137 of those killed were Han Chinese, who form the majority of China's 1.3 billion population. The previous death toll was 156.

The latest figure included 46 Uighurs, the largely Muslim people of Xinjiang who share cultural bonds with Central Asian peoples. All but one were men. Uighurs, once a sizeable majority in Xinjiang, now make up 46 percent of its 21.3 million people, according to government statistics.

Xinhua said the other person killed in the attacks that erupted last weekend was a member of the Hui ethnic group, which is Muslim but culturally akin to Han Chinese.

The brief report did not say whether any of the dead were killed by security forces.

The reaction on Urumqi streets to the official death toll reflected the deepening ethnic divide in Xinjiang, with Uighurs expressing disbelief in the number.

"That's the Han people's number. We have our own number," said Akumjia, a Uighur resident, as he eyed security forces who had cordoned off a street where there was an outburst of protest near a mosque and then arrests on Friday. A security forces helicopter buzzed overhead.

"Maybe many, many more Uighurs died. The police were scared and lost control."

Close to where he stood, what appeared to be a spray of bullet holes could be seen on the glass front of a Bank of China office. There were no bullets among the shards. The government has not said what kind of forces suppressed the bloody rioting. Many Uighur residents say they heard or saw gunfire.

Chinese authorities had delayed releasing the ethnic breakdown of the dead, possibly out of concern it would further inflame the situation.

Several Han Chinese residents said distrust of Uighurs was likely to persist.

"Uighurs also died ... But then they blame Han for being so angry about the killing and looting," said Zhao Hong, a Han resident who said she saw some of the bloodshed from her home window before hiding.

"BATTLE TO PROTECT STABILITY"

Beijing does not want to lose its grip on the vast territory that borders Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, has abundant oil reserves and is China's largest natural gas-producing region.

Zhou Yongkang, the top domestic security official in China's ruling Communist Party, said the country now had to "vigorously prosecute this tough battle to protect stability in Xinjiang," the Xinjiang Daily reported on Saturday.

Human Rights Watch said that the government had deployed some 20,000 troops in Urumqi since the July 5 riots, which broke out after security forces broke up a protest over the deaths of Uighur workers in southern China.

The show of force appears to be preventing fresh unrest, and the police have issued a ban on protests and "illegal assembly," Xinhua said.

"Police will disperse such illegal assemblies according to the law and are entitled to take necessary means if the crowd refuses to disperse," the report said, without elaborating.

Parts of Urumqi remain tense, especially Uighur neighborhoods, and thousands of troops and police are on guard. There was a brief demonstration on Friday, the main Muslim day of prayer, after some mosques were opened briefly.

On Saturday, anti-riot troops again kept a close watch on Uighur residents, and loudspeakers on vehicles blasted orders that Uighurs should stay at home and accept the government's line on the unrest. There were no public protests.

Security chief Zhou Yongkang continued his tour of Xinjiang. State television showed him in Kashgar, a restive city in the region's south, inspecting riot police.

The show of force is likely to prove popular with most Han Chinese, including those in Xinjiang, who believe their government has done much to help Uighurs.

But a few dissenters have issued an online petition urging the government to rethink its policies and to shift from taking some steps to help minorities to giving full rights to all.

A statement (????? | Truth and Reconciliation) said the petition was launched by three Chinese nationals, one a Uighur.

(Additional reporting by Ben Blanchard in Shanghai; editing by Michael Roddy)

China raises Xinjiang death toll, adds ethnic detail - Yahoo! News
 
The larger issue that comes to mind is the Ummah ?

Why is it applied selectively ? It should be all or nothing. If Muslims in any other part of the world were denied friday prayers there would have been an outcry world wide of denial of religious rights....silence here.

Compare this with the Burka issue in france do we see double standards ?

Yes...I think by far this is most difficult to answer for a person/s who are rational...though expecting one...
 
Yes however the reason is not double standards rather politics. The concept of Ummah is long lost, policies are driven by politics. Welcome to the real world.

Zaid Hamid thrives on that ..the concept of Ummah...If it is long dead why are you so itchy about the "mistreatment and killing" of Muslims in Kashmir or say a Godhra riot?

And aprt from him ..there are scores of other people who swear by it...who believe in it...the Caliphate .....whose turn has come >...

How do you deny it? From Indonesia to West Africa....the concept of Ummat e Muslima runs strong....

Is there a doubt about it ?

"Selective perception" is an appropriate term to describe this.
 
We should support CCP stand on this issue.As far as morality is concerned give me a break..how many times we supported insurgencies in other countries which caused a lot of bloodshed?We Pakistanis have a holier then thou attitude..Have Pakistanis ever spoken about Balochis like this who have been suffering from several years.

Oh....are you not a Pakistani..dont you know what is happening in Kashmir ?

I am amazed that till this day you have nt raised your voice....
 
Uighurs suffer from systematic oppression, and a land grab. Xinjiang is not China, it is annexed territory.

Are you saying all uighurs are terrorists? That seems a bit harsh.

As for uighurs killing Han Chinese, I'd take hte official figures with a pinch of salt. In most previous rioting, years back, 90 percent of the victims were Uighurs themselves, and this time it is no different either. Chinese officials have decided to misrepresent the true number of Uighurs killed. It beggars belief that Uighurs could have invaded the city center from the suburbs, and then kill so many Hans within such a militarised/securatised city.

This is much saner than the other esponses floating around here....I ask to the Chinese...

What is this policy of Incentivised immigration to ethnically weaker aeas to chane the demographics for once and for all?

You have done it in TAR and this Xinjiang....

I am just amazed how do you brainwash millions of peoplke to believe what you are saying?

And how much do you pay these people for uprooting their houses ?

And how much did you pay to uproot people from thier homes to ostensibly build infrastructure for the 2008 Olympics...

These are good to know things...and amazing too
 
The same way if the UN passed a vote and said Arunachal Pradesh, Nagaland, Manipur, Mizoram, Tripura, Meghalaya, and Assam where disputed we woulsd support the UN but up until then shall we call it indians internal affair.

Give them to the Chinese....and let them handles the Nagas, Mizos, Tripuris, NDDB etc, on thier own ...

Just like the way they are handling the Uighurs.....Cheers...
 
and yes i dont consider pakistanis kafir, and if you can check, i have reported his posts to moderators... belonging to my country is not the criteria, but being civil is.

And I appreciate that. BTW you can settle whatever issue you have with that member through PM if he doesn't mind.
 
By Malcolm Moore

Malcolm Moore is the Telegraph's Shanghai Correspondent. He arrived in China in July 2008 after three years in Italy as the Telegraph's Rome Correspondent. Before that, he was the paper's Economics Correspondent.



Yesterday, I was able to use Twitter to relay real-time information from Peter Foster in Urumqi about the race riots which have claimed 156 lives.

Today, nothing works. Peter is not able to receive calls or text messages. My Twitter account has been blocked, even while using the virtual private networks (VPN) that help me skip past the Chinese censors. Twitter remains blocked in general in China, but others seem to be able to access it with their VPN. I guess the problem is just with me.

The situation remains tense in Urumqi, and Hu Jintao has had to fly home to deal with the issue. No one else has enough authority to impose himself above Wang Lequan, the powerful party secretary of the region and member of the politburo. Wang’s days appear numbered, however - the events in Urumqi may well compromise his reelection to the standing committee. It will be interesting to see if Hu flies directly to Urumqi.

Turning over the riots in my mind, I concede I was wrong in my last post to suggest that Rebiya Kadeer would rise in stature as a result of the riots.

When I wrote the post, I had limited information and I jumped to the conclusion that the 156 victims of Sunday’s violence were Uighur.

In fact, it appears that the majority of the victims were Han Chinese, brutally killed by gangs of Uighurs roaming through the back streets of Urumqi. There are some horrific pictures circulating of rows of bloodied bodies and cyclists lying in puddles of blood with their heads bashed in.

I apologise for running ahead of the facts, but the idea that Chinese troops had been unable to prevent the Uighurs from murdering Han Chinese honestly never occurred to me.

Now that the sequence of events is clearer, I have a lot of praise for the Chinese security operation in the city. According to Peter Foster, who is on the scene, they managed to prevent escalating situations getting out of hand several times yesterday with calm and judicious policing.

In addition, allowing journalists to circulate and protecting them from the crowd has clearly paid dividends. Rebiya Kadeer’s claims that 400 Uighurs were killed on Sunday were dismissed by my colleagues on the ground, who have neither seen nor heard any evidence to back up her accusation.

I would encourage the authorities to stop censoring the internet now. Allowing information to circulate does not lead to greater instability - this unrest has shown that the wild rumours that develop when news is suppressed can be incredibly explosive.

My feeling is that the Han Chinese, now that they have marched and let off some steam, are unlikely to assemble in large numbers again. An enormous security operation should succeed in preventing any more chaos. But the long-term picture is still troublesome. How will the Uighurs and the Han Chinese resolve their differences?

The Chinese authorities have taken the first step, arresting 13 people in Guangdong in connection with the factory killings which proved the catalyst for the riots. But that’s unlikely to satisfy the Uighur population, which has been fed ugly and wild rumours of mass rapes and butchery.

In addition, China’s refusal to admit that Uighurs have a legitimate complaint - that they are economically disenfranchised and discriminated against - will hinder any reconciliation.

The Chinese believe that Uighurs get an easy ride from police and are allowed to get away with petty crime. They also worry about policies that allow Uighurs to carry knives and threaten hardworking Han Chinese. This needs to change. Uighurs and other ethnic minorities should be subject to the same laws as everyone else in China.

However, the complaints of the Uighurs are far more serious. They are restricted from worshipping freely, from free movement (their passports are often held by the police and visas are difficult to obtain) and they are clearly not benefitting from the economic prosperity of their province.

When I was last in Kashgar, last year, I asked a former colleague who has since departed China, what the fundamental problem between Han Chinese and Uighurs was. “There’s a total lack of respect for Uighurs,” was his reply. It is difficult to imagine that there will be a change, and the hatred on both sides will run deep in Urumqi long after security is re-imposed.

China may even be succeeding in turning the Muslim Uighurs, who have traditionally been enamoured with Western values and culture, towards the anger and disenfranchisement felt by the fundamentalists just over the border in Pakistan and Afghanistan. These riots have been a watershed moment for Han and Uighur relations, and I fear that more trouble lies ahead.




http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/malcolmmoore/100002509/urumqi-riots-signal-dark-days-ahead/
 
Some Indian members and our own Islamist 5th column have made common cause and have found opportunity in these tragic events to malign and little else and it's too bad that the forum has allowed itself to be used in this way.

Thread after thread repeating the same thing, responsible members are dismayed, after all, who is served by this maligning?? Will China be served will Uighurs be served ?? Will Pakistan be served? Who then benfits??

Some say it is "freedom of speech" - good, but why does this forum imagine that it must serve as a mouth piece of those who use an idea such as freedom of speech to malign, confuse and to promote ideas associated with those who use terror as a tactic in the name of their ideology of using religion as a political tool.
 
1. not saying we should trust PRC's reports of the race of the people killed but does that necessarily mean it is mostly uighurs killed? it is accept by western media the most of the people killed are han and hui

2. aside from religious situation(allow as long as it is inline with government rules) the people(minorities) are known to have more freedom than the han people, ie: no one child laws, extra school points, quotas of various sorts.

3. i believe this protest is based not on religion(this specific case) but on the fact that han people are moving into former Uighur majority areas. the native people have the option of separate school only in their languege, now they complain that job are being taken away and that the economic expansion is no at all benifitting their peoples, i see severals points to this. the standard languege of china, used in business and politics is mandarin when you go to a school that teaches in another languege of course you cannot expect to go far in sociaty.

for other stuff:

now then i agree religiously things are all that free
also as far as "not supporting what is wrong"
this is a riot, people, human beings died, those that had nothing to do with current event only in the wrong time at the wrong place died. what should the police have done?, not crack on down the killers?

as for "What suddenly all the Ughirs are not Muslims anymore ?"

they are muslims, so are the hui that dies and those that are dying in iraq, Afghanistan, bin ladin is muslim, so's the insurgents Pakistan is facing

"China might be a good friend to the Pakistani government, but that should'nt stop the average pakistani from expressing concern about this issue as a human if not as a muslim."

agreed

Uighurs suffer from systematic oppression, and a land grab. Xinjiang is not China, it is annexed territory.

Are you saying all uighurs are terrorists? That seems a bit harsh.

As for uighurs killing Han Chinese, I'd take hte official figures with a pinch of salt. In most previous rioting, years back, 90 percent of the victims were Uighurs themselves, and this time it is no different either. Chinese officials have decided to misrepresent the true number of Uighurs killed. It beggars belief that Uighurs could have invaded the city center from the suburbs, and then kill so many Hans within such a militarised/securatised city.

Xinjiang is China, look it up, it was lost then regained
and sure in the past something happen so it MUST be the same now

"It beggars belief that Uighurs could have invaded the city center from the suburbs, and then kill so many Hans within such a militarised/securatised city"

1. in riot and protests past the capital was always quite
2.yes it beggars the belief, also a reason why there as a han counter protest they say its no longer in the govrnments hand(or something along those lines)


This is much saner than the other esponses floating around here....I ask to the Chinese...

What is this policy of Incentivised immigration to ethnically weaker aeas to chane the demographics for once and for all?

You have done it in TAR and this Xinjiang....

I am just amazed how do you brainwash millions of peoplke to believe what you are saying?

And how much do you pay these people for uprooting their houses ?

And how much did you pay to uproot people from thier homes to ostensibly build infrastructure for the 2008 Olympics...

These are good to know things...and amazing too

1. its the policy of go west
2. the govenment gives incentives to go west and people hear from their friends about the economic opportunities the government is opening up there. the opportunity is real no brainwashing required.

3. depends on the value of the house, there are 3 choices generally, either to pay you what they think the values of the house is, you choose a apartment/house to rent the government pays for the rent the rest of your life, you are given another house/place to live in that you will own. i agree sometime the deal is crap but all in the name of development. my old house was demolished i didnt like it but whatever.

3. as for the Olympics most of the are torn down was the old style neighborhoods other-wise same as above


lastly as for the "islamic brotherhood" this is just talk when was the last time they all banded together and taken on an enermy and won?
on the thought of all muslim nations dropping relations with china... sigh...international politics and far more complicated then being simply based on religion
 

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