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Creation of Bangladesh: Shining Moment or Strategic Blunder

LoL, do you want to say if I ignore PK's past crimes then he can also ignores AL's present crimes?
BTW, it was an war. So people were killed by PK in 71 to keep the situation in hand.

There is no comparison between 1971 war and current political rivalry in Bangladesh.


BD will also do the same thing if anything like that happen in BD.
No it will not even go to that level. The only thing could happen is the fall of government which we saw in 1990 and 1996. The army will not simply go against civilians.
As like India is doing in Kashmir now.

Totally different perspective nothing can be compared to 1971 events and Kashmir conflicts.
But I criticize and blame PK for it's misrule which dissatisfied BD

this is more than that. it was a genocide.
people and led to the thinking of separation and your India and conspirators took that chance to break PK and to make a weak BD.

BD is far stronger now than erstwhile east pakistan. the 6 point demand includes security of east pakistan from India. After 1965 war it was evident that East Pakistan was left in the mercy of India.

But I'm not like AL who tries to attract people by 71 who has nothing else to get public support.

I dont blame AL for that. Its a political party and as long as anything could draw more votes than they will use it. Nobody stop BNP/Jamatis to try that and I saw them tried in their own way.

And I found present PK people have well wish for BD and we should think about that now but not past.

Good. We also wish them good. Afteralll they are fellow south asian and Muslim who once belonged with us. No bad feelings.

BTW, is not it better to stay away when two BDmen are talking about AL. Why you guys are desperate?

Its a open forum and anybody could make it interesting.
 
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No it will not even go to that level. The only thing could happen is the fall of government which we saw in 1990 and 1996. The army will not simply go against civilians.


Totally different perspective nothing can be compared to 1971 events and Kashmir conflicts.


Its a open forum and anybody could make it interesting.

In 1990 and 1996 BD civilians did not go for any separation from BD. But in 1971 some BD people went for separation from united PK which was a different scenario? So why BD army would kill BD people?

You are right that Kashmir and 71 issues are not same but in both cases we can see that their respective armies are killing and killed (71) people to keep the situation in hand. And still this common strategy is following by rulers when negotiation fails.

You are right that any one can be interested but I found them desperate many times.
 
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One Muslim warrior Bakhtiyar Khilji, 12 horseman showed up with Islamic swords and all Hindu king ran away from Bengal. Put the history in prospective.

Sher e Bengal's
mother tongue was Urdu and he was speaking Urdu more than Bangla. So I do not think he was in love with Bengaliat like you or Iajdani.

That shows how little you know, or how far you are capable of distorting things, deliberately or otherwise, only your crooked mind will know.

Sher-e-Bangla was from Barisal, from a village, Jhalukathi, close to my mother's father's village, Kulokathi. My father met him a number of times and took his blessings, even after joining the Imperial Police, and the old man always spoke to him in our East Bengali dialect, with great affection, having known my father's father in turn: he used to refer to him by his first name.

I suspected that you were a liar; it is nice that you proved that I was wrong to suspect you.
 
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In 1990 and 1996 BD civilians did not go for any separation from BD. But in 1971 some BD people went for separation from united PK which was a different scenario? So why BD army would kill BD people?

Before March of 1971 it was just a political rivalry. Declaration of Independence came after the genocide started and rightly so.

You are right that Kashmir and 71 issues are not same but in both cases we can see that their respective armies are killing and killed (71) people to keep the situation in hand. And still this common strategy is following by rulers when negotiation fails.

I said they are separate issue and can be discussed in separate perspective. Dont you ever ask yourself when 2 million lost their lives in the event of 1947 when Kashmiris were sleeping. I still believe they could join Pakistan if they wanted it bad.

When negotiation failed you go and you start killing 1.5 million people. You start anhiliation of a entire ethnic and religious group regardless of them armed or unarmed. You kill them under your custody. You raape them and you make 10 million people to flee their own home and livelyhood. Then you start killing intellectuals so that the entire ethnic group will be brainless and sumissive to you. What are you thinking Sky?? I even know one of my girl friends maternal grand father who was a Rajakar and his servent was shot point blank only becuase he made smoke while preparing tea for the Pakistan army. I also know a case when one guy while preparing drink for his cattle was shot dead point blank only because he was late in rasing his hand from the basket where he was preparing the drink. Just think twice before you simplified things when you did not live up with the horror of 1971.

"I was not born as a coward and will not die as a coward". The word of Late Direndranath Dutta who submitted the bill in the parliament for Bengali as the national language. That was his last word to his people when everybody wanted him to leave his home in Comilla and go to India. He did not leave. Pakistan army escorted his home for 3 days and on the fourth day they entered and killed that brave old guy including his sons who never wanted to leave. Did you ever paid respect to him? What Bangladesh did to him? What kind of nation are we? I feel sorry for that guy that he had to born in a ungreatefull country like us.
 
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^ hm actually there was some mistakes and brutality by PK army while they were desperate to search Mukti Bahinis also they killed Hindus and other conspirators brutally mostly but....................

Also I know, my dad and grand dad was arrested by PK army and they was tortured by PK army and PK army wanted to kill my dad but then they become kind on my dad and then free both of them. All army was not so brutal.

YOu are talking about shot point blank by one Razaker. I told that those few type of Razakars was guilty but other Razakars had the right to support PK.


"I was not born as a coward and will not die as a coward".
We know BD people are not coward but who will say that they got some false stimulation by the conspirators.

BTW, do you have girl friend and wife together? :lol:
 
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^ hm actually there was some mistakes and brutality by PK army while they were desperate to search Mukti Bahinis also they killed Hindus and other conspirators brutally mostly but....................

Please refer to my previous post. I said all in there. No need to repeat.
Also I know, my dad and grand dad was arrested by PK army and they was tortured by PK army and PK army wanted to kill my dad but then they become kind on my dad and then free both of them. All army was not so brutal.

Good that they were released after getting caught mistakenly. But what happend afterwards? Did your Father and Grand Father Joined War? If so, then was it Mukti Bahini?

Let me give you a nice example of my place. The famous Rajakar named Awal Sahib who was the chairman of Shanti Committee that time. When Pakistani army entered our area, he was the one first ran to greet them. The Pakistani CO (Commanding officer) slapped him so hard that he spinned five times but later the PK army understood their mistake and accepted his invitation and paid visit his home. He was made the chairman of Shanti Committee. Great honor indeed.

My funny uncle always used to make humor out of it and it was just a blast...

BTW, do you have girl friend and wife together? :lol:

I am still single.. ;)
 
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^ I'm 25+ and you are about 10 years older than me. They why you are still unmarried? Do we need to find someone for your marriage?
 
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^ I'm 25+ and you are about 10 years older than me. They why you are still unmarried? Do we need to find someone for your marriage?

Who wants to buy a cow when milk is free... Just a joke.. :rofl::rofl:

You have somebody in your hand who wants to merry a non vergin.. ? :smitten:

Back to topic..
 
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Good that they were released after getting caught mistakenly. But what happend afterwards? Did your Father and Grand Father Joined War? If so, then was it Mukti Bahini?

No they did not participate in war. But they were not on behalf PK or Razakar and they care and love BD always.


Good Night
 
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Your hero was the worst kind of scoundrel in Muslim invading history. Read it if u’ve time-

“It is sometimes misleadingly asserted that Muhammad Bakhtiyar Khilji conquered Nadiya, the capital of Bengal with only 18 horsemen. This is incorrect. The Tabakat-i-Nasiri by Minhaj-us- Siraj states that Bakhtiyar Khilji "suddenly appeared before the city of Nadiya with only eighteen horsemen, the remainder of his army was left to follow." (Elliot & Dowson, pp. 308-309)

This shows that Muhammad Bakhtiyar Khilji entered Nadiya with a bodyguard-cum-escort of eighteen horsemen professing great friendship but later, when joined by the main body of his troops also on a similar plea, they all went berserk and all of a sudden pounced upon the poor, unarmed, defenseless citizenry indulging in a fanatic orgy of loot, **** and massacre.

Tabakat-i-Nasiri itself gives a clear indication of Khilji's treacherous entry into Nadiya. We are told: "Muhammad Bakhtiyar did not molest any man, but went on peaceably and without ostentation, so that none could suspect who he was. The people rather thought he was a merchant who had brought horses for sale.

In this manner he reached the gate of Rai Lakhminiya's palace, when he drew his sword and commenced his attack. At this time, the Rai was at his dinner and gold and silver dishes filled with food were placed before him. All of a sudden a cry was raised at the gate of the palace and in the city. Before he could ascertain what had occurred, Bakhtiyar had rushed into the palace and put a number of men to the sword.

The Rai fled bare-footed by the rear of the palace, and his whole treasure and all his wives and maid- servants, attendants and women fell into the hands of the invader. Numerous elephants were taken and so much booty was obtained by the Mohammedans as is beyond all compute...Bakhtiyar destroyed the city of Nadiya and established his seat of government at Lakhnauti."

I have read similar account above in the "History of Bengal" written in 1803 (I have the original book) by Charles Stewert, and also in a few Persian language history books translated into Bengali/English. He wrote that the main army consisting of 10,000 Turkic horsemen hid behind in jungles and Afghan Turkic general Bakhtiar Khilji advanced towards Nadia with 17 of his ablest warriors disguised as traders. The present day Bihar was already under his control.

Since muslims are fond of telling about the myth of 17 horsemen, this has created also another myth. This myth is, since there were only 17 of them, therefore, all other muslims were forced to convert. It is just not true. There were certainly conversions of the Budhists in Bengal, but there were too many influx of foreign muslims in Bengal as well, not only in 1203 AD, but also throughout many centuries after that.

People with lack of knowledge of the political history of Bengal during muslim era cannot just analyze the effects of these immigrations. Effects of these immigrations must be analyzed with the number of local population in those times when immigration occured.

For example, I assume that the population in Bihar and Bengal in 1203 AD was no more than 3 million, and the Turkic immigration at no less than 250,000. But, people tend to think that the local Hindu population was static at todays 300 million people. So, the immigration had very little effect. People forget that population is always increasing.

Most of Hindustan including Bengal had a very few number of population in those days. Most of the lands used to remain covered with thick jungle because it was not necessary also. Newly arrived people were allocated fallow lands by the muslim govt in Lukhnouti. They took possession of these lands and gradually opened these for cultivation.

I apologise for writing a long post. But, I thought since you are well-versed in history, therefore, you would like this discussion. I expect the same from other posters as well.
 
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I was thrilled to read your post, and astonished that you had attempted to address several issues on a purely logical basis. As it happens, we differ, but it is only fair to record the enjoyment that your well-marshalled arguments brought out.

I have read similar account above in the "History of Bengal" written in 1803 (I have the original book) by Charles Stewert, and also in a few Persian language history books translated into Bengali/English. He wrote that the main army consisting of 10,000 Turkic horsemen hid behind in jungles and Afghan Turkic general Bakhtiar Khilji advanced towards Nadia with 17 of his ablest warriors disguised as traders. The present day Bihar was already under his control.

This is more or less the true account that you have represented; the 17 horsemen business has been used as a propaganda tool by racists to denigrate Bengalis; we saw an example just a few posts back. The impact of this surprise attack is not to be underestimated; it was a wonderful example, and one that should be cited as very good warcraft, and not in any other sense.

Since muslims are fond of telling about the myth of 17 horsemen, this has created also another myth. This myth is, since there were only 17 of them, therefore, all other muslims were forced to convert. It is just not true. There were certainly conversions of the Budhists in Bengal, but there were too many influx of foreign muslims in Bengal as well, not only in 1203 AD, but also throughout many centuries after that.

This is not quite so certain. The Buddhist population was disaffected; the Sena dynasty had lost its grip on the people, and was even as a dynasty nowhere near as popular as the earlier Palas were; Sena views on religion were harsh and intolerant, perhaps a reflection of their less permissive milieu (they are said to be migrants from the Deccan), and their imposition of resurgent Hinduism on the Tantrik Buddhists of Bengal cannot have been without resentment, not just among the Buddhists but among the caste Hindus as well. This was the period, after all, of the repeated attempts by these kings to 'improve the stock' of Brahmins in Bengal; what a way to retain the loyalty of your existing subjects!

On the other hand, traders from Arabia had been familiar with Bengal since the times of the Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar, so there was an history of more than a millennium of trade and travel exchanges. We already know that the similar contacts with the south-west corner of India had resulted in arguably the first mosques in India excluding Sind being built here, on the west coast, and the establishment of several colonies of Muslims, converts all, definitely from the ninth century onwards, all due to peaceful conversion.

Is it straining credibility too much to argue, as many have done, that the bulk of conversions were peaceful, and by Arab traders preaching their faith among the Buddhists of East Bengal?

The patterns of settlment bear this out.

Immigrants settled in Murshidabad, also in tracts of Burdwan and Bankura. It is recorded that in the course of exploration and conquest, Afghan tribesmen penetrated this way into Orissa, and settled there too in large numbers. Now, if the Muslim population in Bengal had been due to immigration, these western regions would have had many more Muslims than the east.

That is not the case today, and I submit that going back and looking at the records, it will be found that it was not the case then. Note that Sultanate penetration of eastBengal, even Mughal penetration of Bengal was accomplished at a very late date.

So if the immigrants were to be found in west Bengal, and the majority of Muslims were to be found in east Bengal, where there was also a majority of Muslims in the general population, what does the logic of their respective locations indicate? Where did this non-immigrant majority of the population come from other than conversion? And considering that Muslim forces got there very late, how did these conversions happen?

People with lack of knowledge of the political history of Bengal during muslim era cannot just analyze the effects of these immigrations. Effects of these immigrations must be analyzed with the number of local population in those times when immigration occured.

For example, I assume that the population in Bihar and Bengal in 1203 AD was no more than 3 million, and the Turkic immigration at no less than 250,000. But, people tend to think that the local Hindu population was static at todays 300 million people. So, the immigration had very little effect. People forget that population is always increasing.

Most of Hindustan including Bengal had a very few number of population in those days. Most of the lands used to remain covered with thick jungle because it was not necessary also. Newly arrived people were allocated fallow lands by the muslim govt in Lukhnouti. They took possession of these lands and gradually opened these for cultivation.

Very true. But does this not reflect the situation in west Bengal, rather than east Bengal? Where were the forests in the delta region?

Again, while acknowledging your comment about the existence of fallow land in plenty for new immigrants, I am not sure where you have got the information that what was distributed was fallow land for cultivation assigned to immigrants who wanted to take to a life of agriculture. Was this what happened?

I do not remember the sources after a gap of forty years between now and when I studied it as an history student. Was it not a distribution of already-cultivated land to feudal vassals, for their use for their own maintenance? Who were the immigrants? Were they not the cavalry and infantry of the Sultanate of Delhi, of Jaunpur long after, of Lukhnauti and of the little Afghan fiefdoms spreading through western Bengal?

For this immigration model to be logically coherent, as I mentioned, there ought to have been a larger population of Muslims in western Bengal, reducing as we got to east Bengal. The position, historically as well as today, the opposite!

I apologise for writing a long post. But, I thought since you are well-versed in history, therefore, you would like this discussion. I expect the same from other posters as well.

It was very satisfying to read a closely-read, closely-argued case. Please continue. Others more capable of it than I will no doubt keep you company, while the rest of us are happy to read these fascinating exchanges.
 
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I have read similar account above in the "History of Bengal" written in 1803 (I have the original book) by Charles Stewert, and also in a few Persian language history books translated into Bengali/English. He wrote that the main army consisting of 10,000 Turkic horsemen hid behind in jungles and Afghan Turkic general Bakhtiar Khilji advanced towards Nadia with 17 of his ablest warriors disguised as traders. The present day Bihar was already under his control.

Since muslims are fond of telling about the myth of 17 horsemen, this has created also another myth. This myth is, since there were only 17 of them, therefore, all other muslims were forced to convert. It is just not true. There were certainly conversions of the Budhists in Bengal, but there were too many influx of foreign muslims in Bengal as well, not only in 1203 AD, but also throughout many centuries after that.

People with lack of knowledge of the political history of Bengal during muslim era cannot just analyze the effects of these immigrations. Effects of these immigrations must be analyzed with the number of local population in those times when immigration occured.

For example, I assume that the population in Bihar and Bengal in 1203 AD was no more than 3 million, and the Turkic immigration at no less than 250,000. But, people tend to think that the local Hindu population was static at todays 300 million people. So, the immigration had very little effect. People forget that population is always increasing.

Most of Hindustan including Bengal had a very few number of population in those days. Most of the lands used to remain covered with thick jungle because it was not necessary also. Newly arrived people were allocated fallow lands by the muslim govt in Lukhnouti. They took possession of these lands and gradually opened these for cultivation.

I apologise for writing a long post. But, I thought since you are well-versed in history, therefore, you would like this discussion. I expect the same from other posters as well.

I'm not sure if the percentage of Turk population was that great. Bengalis still are an amalgam of Indo-Arayan, Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic. The Semetic footprint is not there or very less to be accountable.

AFAIK, the conversion as that happened was different than North-West India and more similar to South India. A sizable population was already Buddhist and discriminated in the rigid caste system that had been followed during Sen Dynasty. Islam was the way out for them and they embraced it without the need of sword.

In the course of time we will still see revivalist and reformatory actions in Hinduism itself by Sri Chaitanya, Bramha Samaj, Sri Ramkrishna etc. Historically Bhaktibad and Sufism enjoyed more preference in Bengal's social life.
 
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