CPEC a double edged sword???

[Viper0011.]

Sure protect your citizens as much as you want. Indian ships will be just sailing by peacefully. The important part is you can't enforce a no fly zone or deny freedom of movement of Indian warships. Rest is all just gravy.

The proof is ALWAYS in the Pudding i.e., the Gravy!!!! And yes, ANYONE with a few dozen modern jets, over their own EEZ, in a WAR, with about 50 mid-sized advanced Naval ships and submarines, can successfully implement a no fly zone. Now add the Jiwani port where you'd have long range SAM tier also, you can pose an ADF zone, which in a way enforces a no fly zone, and shoots down as needed.

Try crossing towards Alaska from the Russian Gulf of Anadyr, your jet may be blown into shrapnels before you could ever see "Bering Strait" or "Alaska Waters" on your GPS. That's the beauty of an air-force, navy and land defense assets working in a Net-Centric warfare environment.

 

[Spectre]

The proof is ALWAYS in the Pudding i.e., the Gravy!!!! And yes, ANYONE with a few dozen modern jets, over their own EEZ, in a WAR, with about 50 mid-sized advanced Naval ships and submarines, can successfully implement a no fly zone. Now add the Jiwani port where you'd have long range SAM tier also, you can pose an ADF zone, which in a way enforces a no fly zone, and shoots down as needed.

Try crossing towards Alaska from the Russian Gulf of Anadyr, your jet may be blown into shrapnels before you could ever see "Bering Strait" or "Alaska Waters" on your GPS. That's the beauty of an air-force, navy and land defense assets working in a Net-Centric warfare environment.

Blah Blah Blah.

You can't enforce a No fly zone or deny Indian Ships freedom of movement in your EEZ under UNCLOS. Indian ships can get as close as 24 Kms and there is nothing you can do unless you want to be in violation of UN Treaty which you have ratified.

Fact of that matter is your ports are toast if their is war if you look at IN assets. There is no way you can prevent them for coming as close 24 Kms in peace time due to UNCLOS and in times of war well good luck with IN ships 24 kms from your shores.

Now shoo!

 

[Viper0011.]

If we look at countries like Vietnam, Brazil and South Africa they all have strong exports and are making stuff.

Consider Brazil, minus their oil and mineral exports it is roughly $75bn. Pakistan is $30bn.

Brazil has the same population as Pakistan but are on the move.

This is isn't putting things in a bad light, its reality. What we should be discussing is how to improve exports.

The argument makes NO sense. The top economy, the US for one example, is a SERVICES based economy. We don't make anything besides the military stuff. And if we do make something like Beef, etc, we export majority of it. Everything comes from China, India, Pakistan, Holland, Bangladesh, Norway, Denmark, France, Mexico and all.

If you have educated labor, use that and your location which will get you the revenue and growth you need. Why would you want to grow a cow when you are three years away from getting Milk???

Pakistan has agriculture and other things like the Textile and all but you can't be everything. How did India grow? Through their labor services. Pakistan has 110-120 MEN ages between 16-23 ages, meaning they have 30 years of work life left in them by the time they get to retire.

Your government knows that very well. In fact, and they want to make Pakistan a services economy. And you have more benefits in doing so. For example, the US is a services economy. But since China, Europe, India, Pakistan are too far, stuff gets here a bit expensive due to the cost. But in Pakistan's case, if you got your 20-40 million people employed in Technology, Healthcare and Engineering sectors supporting the globe (like India is doing), you can get everything else (like products, etc) from the Chinese, for MUCH cheaper than the US as you are next door and connected through the road!!!

Today, Pakistan's checking account OFFICIALLY crossed $ 20 billion in savings, in addition to your Foreign reserves in Gold, Dollars and Euros. So the people who took it to $ 20 BILLION from a near bankrupt $ 11 MILLION ONLY....have a really good strategy and it is working.

Instead of pissing the Chinese, the US and others off with stupid remarks that I've seen on here, do your hard work. From this point on, Failure or Success lies SOLELY on the Pakistani nation and people. You be lazy and don't do the hard work and just talk, no one can help you change your destiny. If you get up for once and do the hard work needed, your country's services will be used in the US, the UK, Australia, Europe, the ME, etc. Making you third largest destination for IT, Medical, BPO and Engineering work. But you got to trust the people and your system who are delivering and do the hard work!!!

You can't enforce a No fly zone or deny Indian Ships freedom of movement in your EEZ under UNCLOS!

The ONLY way to find out is to try it

Where does the UN charter says to threat and use the Flash lights against each other or attack each other? You think anyone will care for the UN's charter . You are smarter than that. The UN comes in to broker the deal when both the parties are exhausted and a threshold is about to be crossed!!!!

 

[Spectre]

The ONLY way to find out is to try it

Where does the UN charter says to threat and use the Flash lights against each other or attack each other? You think anyone will care for the UN's charter . You are smarter than that. The UN comes in to broker the deal when both the parties are exhausted and a threshold is about to be crossed!!!!

Yeah then why harp about the benefits of EEZ in defense/military terms continuously like a broken record when infact there are none????? On one hand you are relying on EEZ which is defined by UNCLOS to make your point when rebutted you then call the said treaty irrelevant.

Grow Up Man!!

This EEZ extension killed the entire "IN blockade" concept. Now PN just need more ships and a separate branch of Coast Guard for Coastal Protection, while the PN gets more ships and extends out its range to 350 NM, from the coastline of Pakistan.

 

[Sipahi]

Wonder if people are clear on what EEZ Means

In the exclusive economic zone, the coastal State has sovereign rights for the purpose of exploring and exploiting, conserving and managing the natural resources, whether living or non-living, of the waters superjacent to the seabed and of the seabed and its subsoil, and with regard to other activities for the economic exploitation and exploration of the zone, such as the production of energy from the water, currents and winds;

Article58

Rights and duties of other States in the exclusive economic zone

In the exclusive economic zone, all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy, subject to the relevant provisions of this Convention, the freedoms of navigation and overflight and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines, and compatible with the other provisions of this Convention.

PREAMBLE TO THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Territorial Sea

Each coastal State may claim a territorial sea that extends seaward up to 12 nautical miles (nm) from its baselines. The coastal State exercises sovereignty over its territorial sea, the air space above it, and the seabed and subsoil beneath it. Foreign flag ships enjoy the right of innocent passage while transiting the territorial sea subject to laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State that are in conformity with the Law of the Sea Convention and other rules of international law relating to such passage.

EEZ is not the same as Territorial Sea and EEZ does not restrict freedom of navigation and flight.

Will UN allow us to build a nawal station at Jiwani which is on our own land and our own sea ??

And Will UN allow us to park a frigates or subs in our EEZ waters ??

 

[Spectre]

Will UN allow us to build a nawal station at Jiwani which is on our own land and our own sea ??

And Will UN allow us to park a frigates or subs in our EEZ waters ??

Yes. Your point being? I was informing the uniformed gentry out here that EEZ is useless for defense/military/naval purposes.

 

[Viper0011.]

Yeah then why harp about the benefits of EEZ in defense/military terms continuously like a broken record when infact there are none????? On one hand you are relying on EEZ which is defined by UNCLOS to make your point when rebutted you then call the said treaty irrelevant.

Grow Up Man!!

That's all you can come up with? Allow me to REMIND you, the SAME UN you are gloriously using here to your benefit, you've abused their declarations on Kashmir since 1950's!!! As of today, you have such a large number of Army vs. local Civilian ratio that no where in the entire world it can be found. A staggering 7 Indian Army men to 1 Civilian!!!! And you call Kashmir "a part of India"???? I don't think you need to appoint 7 Army men to control "1" Civilian if it REALLY was a part of your country and people had allegiance to the Indian flag.

Why is it that I can see you youtube, any political rally in Kashmir has PLENTY of Pakistani flags. But I've YET to see a rally in Baluchistan or Pakistani Kashmir, showing a rally with Indian flags???? People use flags to show allegiance right???? So the Kashmir you guys vehemently call "a part of our India" has Pakistani flags getting waved in it during any or every public protest....WHILE you have 7 Indian Army soldiers vs. 1 Kashmiri Civilian>>???? . What's wrong with the picture? This isn't a part of your country or everyone would be loyal to India, like its in Bombay, Delhi, Chinai, and everywhere else!!!

So ONE maharaja, for his religious affiliation with Indian Hindus, put 91% of the Kashmiri population under the Indian rule WHEN, 91% of the people, in an open and fair election told the world they wanted to remain an independence state. That wasn't blowing off all UN charters and demands? And when the UN told you to allow the majority of the people their electoral voting rights.....what did you guys do?? You didn't act on ANY UN declarations and a few years ago, through influence, you finally forced them to become a much lower level title than UN declarations!!!

Is supporting mass terrorism inside Pakistan a UN mandate???? Is financially and weapons wise supporting Taliban and other terrorist extremists, who have killed thousands in Pakistan, including hundreds of CHILDREN....was a UN mandate??? NO!!!

YOU grow up man!

 

[Spectre]

That's all you can come up with? Allow me to REMIND you, the SAME UN you are gloriously using here to your benefit, you've abused their declarations on Kashmir since 1950's!!! As of today, you have such a large number of Army vs. local Civilian ratio that no where in the entire world it can be found. A staggering 7 Indian Army men to 1 Civilian!!!! And you call Kashmir "a part of India"???? I don't think you need to appoint 7 Army men to control "1" Civilian if it REALLY was a part of your country and people had allegiance to the Indian flag.

Why is it that I can see you youtube, any political rally in Kashmir has PLENTY of Pakistani flags. But I've YET to see a rally in Baluchistan or Pakistani Kashmir, showing a rally with Indian flags???? People use flags to show allegiance right???? So the Kashmir you guys vehemently call "a part of our India" has Pakistani flags getting waved in it during any or every public protest....WHILE you have 7 Indian Army soldiers vs. 1 Kashmiri Civilian>>???? . What's wrong with the picture? This isn't a part of your country or everyone would be loyal to India, like its in Bombay, Delhi, Chinai, and everywhere else!!!

So ONE maharaja, for his religious affiliation with Indian Hindus, put 91% of the Kashmiri population under the Indian rule WHEN, 91% of the people, in an open and fair election told the world they wanted to remain an independence state. That wasn't blowing off all UN charters and demands? And when the UN told you to allow the majority of the people their electoral voting rights.....what did you guys do?? You didn't act on ANY UN declarations and a few years ago, through influence, you finally forced them to become a much lower level title than UN declarations!!!

Is supporting mass terrorism inside Pakistan a UN mandate???? Is financially and weapons wise supporting Taliban and other terrorist extremists, who have killed thousands in Pakistan, including hundreds of CHILDREN....was a UN mandate??? NO!!!

YOU grow up man!

Try again this time restrict yourself to relevance or lack there of EEZ for purposes of Naval Warfare/Defense and Military.

 

[Shamain]

For the past few weeks i have been reading a lot about this economic corridor but only the good thing like how this road is gonna boast our economy and make lives of 20mil people better. So I feel like be the critic here. At the moment I have three Potential risks of this project.

1. Despite the positive outlook of the CPEC, we also need to understand the potentially long run negative impact it shall have on Pakistan’s industrial sector. The goods from China will likely flood Pakistan’s market more rapidly, which will potentially slow down or in worse case cripple the local industry.

2.Excess of every thing is bad, & in this case it is our reliance on china. Pakistan needs to secure its own national interests and keep the balance of its relations with both China and the West for relying on one sphere of influence can damage relations with the other. By becoming a diplomatic balancer, as pointed out previously, Pakistan can get the best from both powers and bridge their sloppy relations.

3.(very pessimistic case) If every thing get out of hand and pakistan becomes the life line of china & russia. we will be ideal target for any agressor. and yes i dont think we have enough fire power to handle such an event, and we must not , we can not allow chinese armed forces on our soil in any case. (thats how the british came, just trade). So, I think with our bugdet and resources, It is wise not to become a point of interest.

So, the conclusion would be, that we must be very careful in the negotiation, our limited focus can hurt us in the long run. And the whole thing has the potential to blow up in our face. And due to our incompetency this thing can turn out to be the worst thing thing that ever happened to pak rather than the best thing.

by MECH

(+ve,-ve, neutral) reviews & views are welcomed

So much awkwardly writtn bullsh1t.

Blah Blah Blah.

You can't enforce a No fly zone or deny Indian Ships freedom of movement in your EEZ under UNCLOS. Indian ships can get as close as 24 Kms and there is nothing you can do unless you want to be in violation of UN Treaty which you have ratified.

Fact of that matter is your ports are toast if their is war if you look at IN assets. There is no way you can prevent them for coming as close 24 Kms in peace time due to UNCLOS and in times of war well good luck with IN ships 24 kms from your shores.

Now shoo!

And the true warmngering face of pretentious Spectre is showing.

 

[Sipahi]

Yes. Your point being? I was informing the uniformed gentry out here that EEZ is useless for defense/military/naval purposes.

If we can built a naval station at Jiwani and we can park some 2 subs and 2,3 frigates at the gate of dwarka ... What more a Pakistan can ask

Good Luck Mumbai

 

[VelocuR]

What did Pakistan achieve last 50+ years? They managed our economy terribly and very slow but we now always prefer China's way of thinking, capabilities, and economy master.

 

[Spectre]

If we can built a naval station at Jiwani and we can park some 2 subs and 2,3 frigates at the gate of dwarka ... What more a Pakistan can ask

Good Luck Mumbai

Just for my benefit can you quote the actual distance b/w Mumbai/Dwarka and Jiwani.

Edit: From Dwarka it is 700 or so Kms and from Mumbai it is 1300 kms - hardly at the gates.

And the true warmngering face of pretentious Spectre is showing.

Ok, where did I advocate war?

 

[MastanKhan]

If you were to walk on the coastline of Pakistan, from Gawader to Chahabar, its about 80 miles away I think (its been a while I read those analysis so I am not sure if it was 80 or more, but its below 100), so as you walk towards Iran, the last part of the Pakistani coastline is on the border, a town or area called Jiwani. Then you cross into Iran within 20+ miles and in about 40 miles or so, is the port of Chahabar.

Now to monitor and keep in check, any activity from the IN or even activity around the Indian trade, you could build a naval station there and a FOB with a squadron of modern jets. You can keep both Iran and India in check big times. Now in a war if you attacked on Indian ships through long range missiles WITHIN Pakistani airspace....nothing happens in the world. Its a war.

Second, if you use this base, you could provide backup air and naval defense to Gawader (YET posing a super heavy punch to nearby Chahabar based IN ships or even cargo ships). If you have a squadrons of heavies there, you can even go as far as to the Strait of Homez or Gulf of Oman near Maskit, and pose a no fly zone for any Indian planes and take out ships. Its the end of Pakistan's new EEZ, ending at 350 NM's from the coastline of Pakistan..!!! All good things have started to happen to Pakistan it seems like . This EEZ extension killed the entire "IN blockade" concept. Now PN just need more ships and a separate branch of Coast Guard for Coastal Protection, while the PN gets more ships and extends out its range to 350 NM, from the coastline of Pakistan.

Remember, the Lion in a jungle doesn't have to show up everywhere, majority of the times, its roar makes pretty much all animal get anxious and run away from wherever they were at, thinking the Lion's close by

@Oscar @MastanKhan @Windjammer : what are your thoughts on the above scenario? Heavies are a must have or something like FC-20 would do the trick I am explaining above?

Hi,

Thanks for the tag-----. Air Commodore Haider in his interview stated that the IAF with its long ranged aircraft can and will strike Pakistan entering from the border of iran.

And long before his statement---I been saying on this board---that if commitment is made for Gwadar-----then there is no reason for PAF not to have long range strike aircraft.

These aircraft to be based in Pasni---a new air port at Gwadar---@Dalbandin---and even @Shamsi air base----. This covers the crucial Pakistani flank and it also gives it the opportunity to strike at the indian flank----.

Pakistan will have to have a Garison at Gwadar with at least 2 division strength----light and heavy combined----and at least 2 sqdrns of aircraft in that area.

 

[Donald Trump]

Pakistan has been refusing to give MFN status to India for the reason that cheap and better quality Indian goods will flood Pakistan's markets destroying local industry. That's exactly what is going to happen when Chinese goods start flooding Pakistan's markets when the CPEC opens for business.

The fact is that the Chinese are making this 'economic corridor' for their own strategic and national interests. Their strategic aim is to establish a PLAAN base at Gwadar to try and dominate the Strait of Hormuz from where a large proportion of the world’s oil flows. Not only the Strait of Hormuz but also to try and dominate the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean. The CPEC is the only viable option for providing logistics support to their future naval base at Gwadar.

Pakistan is just a side show in this project. The sooner this is realized by the Pakistanis, the better. All this talk of them achieving super power status due to the CPEC is a lot of bull and hot air - unfortunately!

 

[Sipahi]

Just for my benefit can you quote the actual distance b/w Mumbai/Dwarka and Jiwani.

Edit: From Dwarka it is 700 or so Kms and from Mumbai it is 1300 kms - hardly at the gates.



Ok, where did I advocate war?

Jewani to Chahbahar it is below 100 KM.

Mumbai and Dwarka are on the eastern side, and after enhanced EEZ waters our navy can sail very near to the cities

Pakistan has been refusing to give MFN status to India for the reason that cheap and better quality Indian goods will flood Pakistan's markets destroying local industry. That's exactly what is going to happen when Chinese goods start flooding Pakistan's markets when the CPEC opens for business.

The fact is that the Chinese are making this 'economic corridor' for their own strategic and national interests. Their strategic aim is to establish a PLAAN base at Gwadar to try and dominate the Strait of Hormuz from where a large proportion of the world’s oil flows. Not only the Strait of Hormuz but also to try and dominate the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean. The CPEC is the only viable option for providing logistics support to their future naval base at Gwadar.

Pakistan is just a side show in this project. The sooner this is realized by the Pakistanis, the better. All this talk of them achieving super power status due to the CPEC is a lot of bull and hot air - unfortunately!

Accept it that we like China more then you and we will not ever, I repeat ever be like Bangladesh or Nepal.

and you can't bully us baby