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Could India's Review of MMRCA Selection Process Bring Back Eurofighter?

Not going to happen, so no point in further discussions. Hari even can calculate the TWR of MK2, although nobody knows the weight of the fighter yet, not even ADA or DRDO as the developers. :disagree:

Lol:eek:
 
Whithout even having insight in the competition, just like they have qestioned technical points withouth having a clue about the fighter and just recently asked MoD to hold the procurement, because French police is investigating against Serge Dassault for political issues on state level, who is not even part of the company anymore and has no relation to the competition whatsover!
Doesn't really make the BJP look like they would be good or at least reasonably knowledgable for defence negotiations or?
The statements of Varun Gandhi made with regard to defence sounded promissing, but not sure how much chances he might have to get a useful position in this field and even if, will he be taken seriously or simply overruled by party policy?


This is coming from very high up in the BJP
Senior BJP leader and former finance minister Yashwant Sinha has written to Antony raising a number of questions over the "conceptual shift" in the defence procurement policy and expressed fears that the LCC concept may bring in corruption.

Whatever the reasons or whatever be the merits of the logic, if a senior BJP leader is looking to block this, it is very bad news for the French. It isn't like Yashwant Sinha to simply be obstructionist on matters like this. If they are, it simply means they have some serious doubts about the deal.
 
Rafale deal will be smoother when Dassaults Indian partner Reliance gets breathing space to operate this deal in a professional way rather than dealing with a governmental institution.

I dont think i need to explain who has got good relations with Reliance.

If you still didnt get it , ask kejriwal.
 
Not going to happen, so no point in further discussions. Hari even can calculate the TWR of MK2, although nobody knows the weight of the fighter yet, not even ADA or DRDO as the developers. :disagree:


Why not? I can certainly calculate. It is very easy. MK2 is going to be 400 Kg lighter and 20% more powerful engine will be used. Using these DATA you can reasonably estimate the T/W ratio of MK2 using MK1 T/W ratio as the base. What difficulty did you find in working out these ratios. Even a standard 10 student can do that.

Nobody knows the weigth of MK2 but designers say that it will be 400 to 500 Kg lighter. so it should weigh around 6000 KG. It may be few KG plus or Minus. We are not LCA designer but we are defense entrusts who discuss the topic with their knowledge. I am the one who have provided authentic links in support of my claims when ever it is asked for. While you guys keep posting your pessimistic views and keep denying the facts i quote from none other than the scientist involved in project itself.
 
Why not? I can certainly calculate. It is very easy. MK2 is going to be 400 Kg lighter and 20% more powerful engine will be used. Using these DATA you can reasonably estimate the T/W ratio of MK2 using MK1 T/W ratio as the base. What difficulty did you find in working out these ratios. Even a standard 10 student can do that.

Nobody knows the weigth of MK2 but designers say that it will be 400 to 500 Kg lighter. so it should weigh around 6000 KG. It may be few KG plus or Minus. We are not LCA designer but we are defense entrusts who discuss the topic with their knowledge. I am the one who have provided authentic links in support of my claims when ever it is asked for. While you guys keep posting your pessimistic views and keep denying the facts i quote from none other than the scientist involved in project itself.

:rolleyes:
 
I am sure they are interested in buying all of the ex-FAF Mirage-2000s which might be in 200 numbers....
 
This is coming from very high up in the BJP


Whatever the reasons or whatever be the merits of the logic, if a senior BJP leader is looking to block this, it is very bad news for the French. It isn't like Yashwant Sinha to simply be obstructionist on matters like this. If they are, it simply means they have some serious doubts about the deal.

I guess half the seniors here are middlemen only trying to say that indian economy is fit as a fiddle and we can afford anything.

Truth is pakfa+rafale at approx same time was height of stupidity,whether anyone agrees or not.

Iaf needs to understand we have budget of only 35 billion
 
Best was had we ordered in 2010 or so ,with almost deliveries complete by now.

Due to the same time of deal the inking of pakfa deal has been dragging for 2 years too on cost issues too proving my point further.

Russia on the other hand has gone on to make pakfa without any contribution from our side.
We have paid them zilch till now,also the initial order of 200 plus is reduced to 144 only.

And again we are paying 40 million per plane for upgraded mirage 2000!

And will operate mig 21 for another 5 years.then after every crash(touchwood it dosen't happen)we blame russians when in reality our planning sucks
 
Best was had we ordered in 2010 or so ,with almost deliveries complete by now.

Due to the same time of deal the inking of pakfa deal has been dragging for 2 years too on cost issues too proving my point further.

Russia on the other hand has gone on to make pakfa without any contribution from our side.
We have paid them zilch till now,also the initial order of 200 plus is reduced to 144 only.

And again we are paying 40 million per plane for upgraded mirage 2000!

And will operate mig 21 for another 5 years.then after every crash(touchwood it dosen't happen)we blame russians when in reality our planning sucks


My bat on AMCA and LCA MK3. Out of that 20bn USD we are going to spend on rafale, we can keep world best consultant, we can buy engine technology and induct AMCA in one decade. We can also build state of art LCA MK3 within next 5 years.
 
This is coming from very high up in the BJP


Whatever the reasons or whatever be the merits of the logic, if a senior BJP leader is looking to block this, it is very bad news for the French. It isn't like Yashwant Sinha to simply be obstructionist on matters like this. If they are, it simply means they have some serious doubts about the deal.

Only because he is high in the party, doesn't give him any insights into the procurement of the fighter, nor give him any knowledge about the fighter itself. But yes it is far from being over for Rafale, that's what I always say to our French friends and why I always said it was stupid from Dassault to delay things instead of simply easing up everything to seal the deal as fast as possible.
IF BJP comes to power is not important now, they will already face political and industrial pressure to change the decision and the EF consortium / partner countries surely have some power to influence. That alone gives more than enough reasons for certain people to make baseless complains, but for doubts you need at least some evidence and so far all claims made by the BJP on the issues that I mentioned were only showing their lack of knowledge of the competition.


Why not? I can certainly calculate.

Because there is not even a single MK2 prototypes available, which would have all changes done and therefor could offer a propper figure for the weight changes. You are purely speculating based on basically nothing reliable and even ignoring plain facts!

- heavier engine => adds weight
- extended airframe in lenght and depth => adds weight
- additional fuel tanks => adds weight
- additional avionics => adds weight
- IF it will have AESA, it will be heavier too => adds weight
- IRST is on the list => adds weight
- wing strenghtenings to increase hardpoint limits and payload => adds weight

Lets not forget that the current 6.5t empty are without the refuelling system either, that will be added during the FOC only, so even that => adds weight

There are in fact far more reasons why the weight will be higher, than there are to be lower! They surely will try to reduce the weight of certain parts, to not make the weight increase too high, but in general it will weigh more than the MK1 and as long as you don't know the weight addition of these changes, nor what the final empty weight of the MK2 is, you CAN'T calculate the TWR!

Truth is pakfa+rafale at approx same time was height of stupidity,whether anyone agrees or not.


It wasn't but to understand that, you need to look beyond the technical or operational capabilities and look at what the M-MRCA competition is aimed at, which is not the addition of just a fighter. If we just wanted a fighter, we would had a Mirage 2000 production line by now.
 
my assesement is not wrong.
rafale will mean lower numbers of pakfa and it has already happened.

better was to order in 2010 or so with deliveries completed by now.

the opportunity we got with pakfa is 1000 times more than with rafale.but what did we do?we squandered that 25 pc contribution too.

rafale dosen't offer us any comparable chance.hal will just assemble rafale and thats it.

going 100 pc pakfa(even stage 1) offered hal much much more opportunity.
 
my assesement is not wrong.
rafale will mean lower numbers of pakfa and it has already happened.

better was to order in 2010 or so with deliveries completed by now.

Not really, since the one has nothing to do with the other! Both procurements (FGFA is a joint development) have their own budgets from the start and we couldn't order in 2010, since IAF didn't even had the technical evaluation finished by then. We could had ordered MRCAs (Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29SMT, Gripen C, or F16 B52) in 2006/07, but that didn't happened for more benefits in return. The procedure by IAF and MoD should had been faster, but since LCA is not done there was no way around MRCA or MMRCA and that unrelated to FGFA development.
The only point where Pak Fa instead of other fighters would had make sense in operational AND industrial points, was assembly of 2 early Pak Fa squads instead of the 42 x additional MKIs, because Pak Fa would take over the same roles as MKI, while giving a clear technical edge and could even extend HALs production line till FGFA production comes, just like this follow MKI order does.
MMRCA is simply aimed on different roles, different class, different industrial and technological benefits for a larger part of the industry (FGFA will mainly benefit HAL or other PSUs).
 
Not really, since the one has nothing to do with the other! Both procurements (FGFA is a joint development) have their own budgets from the start and we couldn't order in 2010, since IAF didn't even had the technical evaluation finished by then. We could had ordered MRCAs (Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29SMT, Gripen C, or F16 B52) in 2006/07, but that didn't happened for more benefits in return. The procedure by IAF and MoD should had been faster, but since LCA is not done there was no way around MRCA or MMRCA and that unrelated to FGFA development.
The only point where Pak Fa instead of other fighters would had make sense in operational AND industrial points, was assembly of 2 early Pak Fa squads instead of the 42 x additional MKIs, because Pak Fa would take over the same roles as MKI, while giving a clear technical edge and could even extend HALs production line till FGFA production comes, just like this follow MKI order does.
MMRCA is simply aimed on different roles, different class, different industrial and technological benefits for a larger part of the industry (FGFA will mainly benefit HAL or other PSUs).

Really?
Don't give the same cliched reference of diff class etc.
Its a bullshit theory,makes no sense at all.

Rafale gives us 0 tech and thats the reality,nothing meaningful will be gained and we have squandered so much that for mk2 r&d nothing will be left,same goes for pakfa.

Thats why its stupid to make pakfa,lca and rafale at the same time,no one can disagree.

We will get no knowhow of irst,engine,spectra,t/r elements of aesa.so what the hell are we gonna learn?

Yes u are right.we will learn how to assemble rafale,nothing worthwhile while we had full 25 pc share in pakfa(50 pc financially)
 
Really?
Don't give the same cliched reference of diff class etc.
Its a bullshit theory,makes no sense at all.

Yeah sure, because MKI will be used in the same roles as Mig 21, or Mig 29 right? Please!

The rest are just baseless claims, so...
 
Yeah sure, because MKI will be used in the same roles as Mig 21, or Mig 29 right? Please!

The rest are just baseless claims, so...

New mig-29 does whatever a mki does.albeit its inferior.

So ur point is moot.

The point of tender was multi role capability and whether u wanna call mki air superiority or not but its a multirole only.

We were just going for a far superior jet thats it.rest are all bogous claims.

Multirole and medium count for nothing.

While its a fact we cannot replace rafale with pakfa,no.i concede that
 
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