Could India's Review of MMRCA Selection Process Bring Back Eurofighter?

[HariPrasad]

Its full of lies,everyone knows we have imported 2032 yes maybe we have got tot for that.

Fine, I post you the most reliable links still it is a lie and your unsupported bluffs are truth.

 

[HariPrasad]

Anyone can make big mouth statements about future aircraft performances..... even before the first prototype has been assembled. Look at almost every design process in aviation history.... it takes decades to build up world class aviation industry and huge investments.

This is not a aircraft which is on paper but it is simply an upgraded version of existing MK1. So it is not a paper plane.

And Tejas is surely a decent 4th gen fighter... definitely able to replace the Mig 21s, but is it a "very good 4th gen fighter?"

yes it is a plane having very low RCS compare to most of the 4th generation plane and has a very decent RADAR and best in the world AAM.

-Speed is comparatively low (Max. speed is 1,350 Km/h), that makes it difficult to outrun or to catch up with enemies

The speed you said is a Speed CAS i.e at sea level which is equal to mighty MKI speed at sea level. No other plane in Asia can hit that speed. At high altitude, tejas has cross Mach 1.6 i.e 2000 KMPH.

- Service ceiling and combat range are lower than another lightweight fighter like the F 16 B50, which limits its effectiveness

Tejas with limited envelop has touched 50000 ft before IOC. which is equal to F 16 block 50. And F 16 is not a light fighter of 6 ton class. It is a plane with 8.5 tons of empty weight so both are not in same category

- It has a lower payload than F 16 B 50

Obviously since it is a light fighter. Mk2 will have a comparable pay load to F 16 inspite of being couple of ton lighter.

T/W ratios are equal. 1.07 to 1.09.

- TWR of Tejas is less than 1.0, while the F 16 B50 has a TWR of over 1.0... that means that the F 16 can outclimb the Tejas in a dogfight

T/W ratio of tejas is 1.07 against 1.09 of F 16B block 50. Tejas with its limited envelop opened has already completed high G turn in just 20 second in Aero india 2013 (In Vertical loop) which is equal to F16. Performance will further improve once the envelop is opened.

- LM already experiments with stealth technology on its F 16`s, Mikoyan Gurevich already puts TV engines on its Migs, both also successfully tested AESA radars and other advanced avionics on their models..... meanwhile, what has HAL done?

Do not talk about what LM tested on F 16. i am talking of F 16 in neighbor hood. Inspite of LM testing stealth of F 16, It will not be able to match low RCS of tejas. RCS of tejas is already comparable to best in the world plane. So far as AESA is concern, ofcourse some latest F16 have it but I am talking about Planes used in Asia.

- Does Tejas use the Kaveri engine? No, because it simply underperforms compared to other engines.

Man Kaveri will be available in another 5 to 6 years. I am talking about plane in totality, Using GE404 doesn't make Tejas any less efficient Machine.

We started in Missile technology very late but we caught surpass European Nation. We can do that in aviation also. I do not foresee any reason why we can not surpass Europe in next decade.

.

- AFAIK, the Tejas has not fired a BVR missile yet? But I could be wrong on that...

It has already fired BVR but not integrated with RADAR. It is a part of FOC test.

 

[HariPrasad]

well just hypothetikalli asking if there are rumours that EFT can make a come back then why not Mig 35 or F18 E/F(we also might get growler version as well )

Mig 35 can kick the *** of any plane in Dog fight. It is the most agile plane in the world. Reduce RCS of increase the range, it can be the most deadly plane.

 

[Bang Galore]

In a word- NO.


THis is pure unsubstantiated BS of the kind we've seen again and again regarding the MMRCA deal.


Rafale will be ordered this year by next GoI no doubt about it.



EFT have been trying to find a way back in since 2012 and have used every card in the book. They've clearly bought some media people but that doesn't make any of this true.

Let the French sweat. If Modi comes, they will sweat even more(many in the BJP have questioned the way the lifecycle costs were calculated), it's why the French were suddenly desperate to get Antony to sign . I'm not a big fan of the French style of negotiating, a good kick in their pants will be good. Hardball should be a two way game.

 

[sancho]

Let the French sweat. If Modi comes, they will sweat even more(many in the BJP have questioned the way the lifecycle costs were calculated), it's why the French were suddenly desperate to get Antony to sign . I'm not a big fan of the French style of negotiating, a good kick in their pants will be good. Hardball should be a two way game.

Whithout even having insight in the competition, just like they have qestioned technical points withouth having a clue about the fighter and just recently asked MoD to hold the procurement, because French police is investigating against Serge Dassault for political issues on state level, who is not even part of the company anymore and has no relation to the competition whatsover!
Doesn't really make the BJP look like they would be good or at least reasonably knowledgable for defence negotiations or?
The statements of Varun Gandhi made with regard to defence sounded promissing, but not sure how much chances he might have to get a useful position in this field and even if, will he be taken seriously or simply overruled by party policy?

 

[Koovie]

This is not a aircraft which is on paper but it is simply an upgraded version of existing MK1. So it is not a paper plane.

This is so wrong and stupid, it hurts.

Tejas MK2 is not Tejas MK1.... and it does not exist yet. Again, go and inform yourself more about aviation.

yes it is a plane having very low RCS compare to most of the 4th generation plane and has a very decent RADAR and best in the world AAM.

Yes, it has a comparatively low RCS, but there are many better radars out there... and why do you think is the AAM of the Tejas the best in the world?

The speed you said is a Speed CAS i.e at sea level which is equal to mighty MKI speed at sea level. No other plane in Asia can hit that speed. At high altitude, tejas has cross Mach 1.6 i.e 2000 KMPH.

I know, and and the F 16, or the Mig 29 are still faster at that altitude.... and from where do you have the 2000 km/h info?

 

[Koovie]

Tejas with limited envelop has touched 50000 ft before IOC. which is equal to F 16 block 50. And F 16 is not a light fighter of 6 ton class. It is a plane with 8.5 tons of empty weight so both are not in same category

Its not equal to the F 16, it has a ceiling + 15,240m and other IAF fighters like the Mig 29 has a service ceiling of over 15,000 m (older Mig version).

And why do you come up with the class of the fighter? You were the one who stated that Tejas is among the best 4th gen fighters around...

T/W ratio of tejas is 1.07

That has been debated many times.... from what I know the Thrust to weight ratio is less than 1 for a loaded Tejas

Maybe some other members with good knowledge about the matter can give more info on that?

Do not talk about what LM tested on F 16. i am talking of F 16 in neighbor hood. Inspite of LM testing stealth of F 16, It will not be able to match low RCS of tejas. RCS of tejas is already comparable to best in the world plane. So far as AESA is concern, ofcourse some latest F16 have it but I am talking about Planes used in Asia.

No sorry, you were the one who started comparing it as the best in the world... not compared to the PAF.

Man Kaveri will be available in another 5 to 6 years.

Yeah.... lets see on that. I admire your optimism

Using GE404 doesn't make Tejas any less efficient Machine.

Never said that... but the fact that Kaveri cant give the required performance does not support your view that Indian aviation tech is at the top of the world.

 

[Koovie]

We started in Missile technology very late but we caught surpass European Nation.

We can do that in aviation also. I do not foresee any reason why we can not surpass Europe in next decade.

.It has already fired BVR but not integrated with RADAR. It is a part of FOC test.

In what aspect did we catch up ?
We still have to induct ICBM which have +10.000 km range with MRV and the capability to be launched from subs... and pls dont come up with "we will do it by blah blah blah", first do it and induct it, THEN brag!

It has already fired BVR but not integrated with RADAR. It is a part of FOC test.

Really? You got a source?

And even if yes, this stage is still miles behind any 4th gen plane that has been introduced into AF and even saw combat ops.

Anyways, point is:

Get out of your blind patriotism and back to reality. HAL is still learning much and has much to do to catch up.... not only in technologies, but also production, management and resources!

 

[HariPrasad]

This is so wrong and stupid, it hurts.
Tejas MK2 is not Tejas MK1.... and it does not exist yet. Again, go and inform yourself more about aviation.

In fact you need it more.

Yes, it has a comparatively low RCS, but there are many better radars out there... and why do you think is the AAM of the Tejas the best in the world?

R77, R73, Paython, Durby in future Astra .

Aren't they world class and best?

I know, and and the F 16, or the Mig 29 are still faster at that altitude.... and from where do you have the 2000 km/h info?

From Here.



Ask any of the 20-odd Indian Air Force test pilots who have flown the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and they will all swear that it is a great fighter to fly. It handles beautifully, screams along at Mach 1.6 (2,000 kilometres per hour) and fires the full range of air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry. With 2,000 test flights under its belt, it has already proven that it can fly and fight better than most fighters on the IAF inventory. It is vastly superior to the MiG-21, and is not too far behind the Mirage 2000.

Why this indifference to Tejas fighter jet? - Rediff.com News


Tejas has touched over 15000 M at IOC (Equal to your F 16 in IOC itself) .

You are simply not able to differentiate between the classification of plane by weight. Light fighter can not lift as much load as medium category fighter and medium category fighter can not lift as much load as heavy fighter. Being 4th generation does not mean that it should be equal to medium class fighter in all aspects. LCA was designed with some specifications in mind. it has achieved all these specification for which was designed.

That has been debated many times.... from what I know the Thrust to weight ratio is less than 1 for a loaded Tejas

Maybe some other members with good knowledge about the matter can give more info on that?

T/W is a measure for empty plane. It will certainly go down once the plane is loaded. DO you want to say that F16 has that ratio of 1.09 with full load?

Anyways, point is:
Get out of your blind patriotism and back to reality. HAL is still learning much and has much to do to catch up.... not only in technologies, but also production, management and resources!

I advice you to get out of pessimism and accept the reality that Tejas is a very good plane. MK2 will be the best and comparable by gripen only. India is a country of highly talented scientist. We have proved that in space . Subsequently we proved that in Missile technology. Now it is the time to prove the same in aviation. With IOC2 of Tejas, we have establish that. It is the time now to surpass Europe in aviation technology like we did in Space and missile technology. You are a pessimist who know little about Tejas. No issue however. You will witness some extraordinary performance of tejas in near future. You will see extraordinary MK2 in coming up in next 3 years.

 

[HariPrasad]

In what aspect did we catch up ?
We still have to induct ICBM which have +10.000 km range with MRV and the capability to be launched from subs... and pls dont come up with "we will do it by blah blah blah", first do it and induct it, THEN brag!

I am not telling you that we simply catch up. We surpass Europeans.

Agni III is already a very long range missile so as Agni V. Agni III is already inducted. MIRV technology is already ready but Mon mohan is not allowing that to test because of international pressure. Isn't K series the missile class of its own?

Actually I can Provide you some excellent literature on this missile but that won't stop your rant.

Agni V touched Mach 24 and hit the target with a single digit accuracy which is never seen before for such type of missile by any country. Isn't is remarkable? 16 ton A IV can go over 4000 KM with 1.5 ton. Isn't it remarkable?

 

[sancho]

Anyways, point is:

Get out of your blind patriotism and back to reality.

Not going to happen, so no point in further discussions. Hari even can calculate the TWR of MK2, although nobody knows the weight of the fighter yet, not even ADA or DRDO as the developers.

 

[Koovie]

I am not telling you that we simply catch up. We surpass Europeans.

Agni III is already a very long range missile so as Agni V. Agni III is already inducted. MIRV technology is already ready but Mon mohan is not allowing that to test because of international pressure. Isn't K series the missile class of its own?

Actually I can Provide you some excellent literature on this missile but that won't stop your rant.

Agni V touched Mach 24 and hit the target with a single digit accuracy which is never seen before for such type of missile by any country. Isn't is remarkable? 16 ton A IV can go over 4000 KM with 1.5 ton. Isn't it remarkable?

So?, French submarine launched ICBMs can carry up to 10 warheads and can hit targets which are 10,000 km away and are OPERATIONAL! And they did it for decades!

Our only ICBM, the A5 is still in testing, has never used multiple warheads and has less than 7,000 km range. How is it superior or equal?

 

[HariPrasad]

Really? You got a source?

Yes.

And even if yes, this stage is still miles behind any 4th gen plane that has been introduced into AF and even saw combat ops.

All main hurdles related to design of platform and performance hurdle are overcome. Only peripheral testing are pending. This is an evolution cycle.

And yes, F22 also has not seen combat ops till date.

 

[Koovie]

R77, R73, Paython, Durby in future Astra .

Aren't they world class and best?

How do you define world class and best?

Based on their number of kills in combat? Or mere paper stats ?

R 73 kill count can be made using one hand.... ever looked at the combat performance of Sidewinder missiles of all generations?

And do you know how many times the LCA fired an ASTRA or Derby missile?
Do you know at which stage the Astra missile currently is?

Well, I guess that does not matter to you because Astra is made by DRDO and therefore it must rape every enemy brutally....


Think what you want.... does not matter... you are just a blind fanboy. The guys who actually get to decide are not blinded like you.

 

[HariPrasad]

So?, French submarine launched ICBMs can carry up to 10 warheads and can hit targets which are 10,000 km away and are OPERATIONAL! And they did it for decades!

No France do not have 10000 KM range SLBM from decade.

We have All types of Missiles that includes supersonic cruise to quasi ballistic missiles which France do not have.

Pl enlight me about the air defense system of France and supersonic cruise missile of France.

How do you define world class and best?
Based on their number of kills in combat? Or mere paper stats ?
R 73 kill count can be made using one hand.... ever looked at the combat performance of Sidewinder missiles of all generations?

I do not define but authorities who can define terms them among best in world.

And do you know how many times the LCA fired an ASTRA or Derby missile?
Do you know at which stage the Astra missile currently is?

LCA never fired Astra. Last year Astra had 3 highly successful test. It is in final stage of firing from sukhoi. You will soon witness that.

Think what you want.... does not matter... you are just a blind fanboy. The guys who actually get to decide are not blinded like you.

You are a brain washed pessimist.