Bratva
PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2010
- Messages
- 13,832
- Reaction score
- 67
- Country
- Location
Alas, kaya karay, Every one is desperate to eat "Maywaa's" and "HOORS" of Jaanah and for them shortcut to Jannah is Jeee Haad
Consquences of military operation in North waziristan
- Thread starter Marwat Khan Lodhi
- Start date
Alas, kaya karay, Every one is desperate to eat "Maywaa's" and "HOORS" of Jaanah and for them shortcut to Jannah is Jeee Haad
FaujHistorian
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Messages
- 12,272
- Reaction score
- 43
- Country
- Location
Welcome back sher Ji
Let's flip the situation a bit.
What would you have ANA do in a similar situation with East or South of Afghanistan.
Thank you
hamid gul should be tried in a military court and hung o a pole.
I am the first to defend Pak military.
But this @rsehole has gone boinkers and threat to the very institution that made him worth something.
Secur
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Messages
- 10,119
- Reaction score
- 56
- Country
- Location
Trust me , hadn't it been for the terrorists sympathizers dividing the nation's opinion and confusing them to no end about the situation and the true nature , ideology and modus operandi of Taliban , we would have finished this menace , a long long time ago . I really wish that the army wouldn't have formed an alliance with the Islamists back in the 80's .
HRK
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
- Messages
- 14,108
- Reaction score
- 122
- Country
- Location
@Secur & others hope you people will bear me & understand that when I and some other like @Pak-one oppose 'full fledged military operation' in North Waziristan it is not because of Taliban's love, but I sincerely think it’s not in Pakistan Interest.
I have reasons to believe this.(I will try to remain concise as much possible )
1- Any militarization first target the social fabric of the society, be it insurgency or counter insurgency operations, social structure of the tribal area changed or should i say distorted due to Afghan War which initiated in 1979 with the invasion of Soviet Union, and our counter strategy to that invasion.
Without going into the detail of social effect of militarization of the tribal area, I will only hint about the status of 'Maliks and Tribal Elders' which effected due to the involvement of many of the foreign elements having backing of state, that thing undermine the power of an institution which were effective in many way including the maintenance of Law & Order.
If you people had not observed than let me point out that no Tribal Elder or Malik ever participated in activities of TTP or Taliban supportive movement before TTP, thought in early days it was hyped as Pukhtoon resistant movement against USA. In fact TTP targeted some Maliks & Tribal Sardars, who were opposing TTP.
So why is this institution so important .... because an institution of decision making and unity of tribes has been neutralized to a certain degree by the militants armed more heavily than a normal tribesman, which can be used to stop this cancer. Further,weaker social fabric and this tribal institution will benefit TTP in the form of increase recruitment of manpower & influence of militancy in Tribal Area.
2- Geographically NW is not a continuous or plain area as Sawat or Punjab, were the army can cordon-off the whole area and can move in to launch a massive operation.We need to have a support of common tribesmen, in the form of Intelligence or simply 'Buddy System'
3-Please understand that it is the first time that the leadership of TTP has gone out of Tribal Area, or I should say it has gone out from Pakistan .....it is a curse and a blessing at the same time..... we can safely assume foreign influence over the decision making of current TTP leadership ..... and if it is true as we think than the main retaliation will not come from North Waziristan it will be from our Settle Areas all over Pakistan particularly Central Punjab, Rawalpindi and Potohar region, Quetta and adjacent areas and Karachi.
4- Any full scale military operation will lead IDP Crises, which will have its impacts on political, social, economical dynamics of settled areas including metropolis centers (will not discussing in detail about political angle), but it will increase the probability of 'lone wolf' at initial stage, on later stages they may join to form new Wolf pack associated with TTP,in short new recruitment grounds for TTP and other anti national elements from inside & outside
5- There are 40-50 or some says 60 groups under TTP, having estimated strength of 40-50 thousand guerrillas by any far fetch estimate, spread in all over Pakistan, so TTP is just an 'Umbrella Organizations' & most of the groups are 'autonomous' in their operations & in their area of operation,only 'some groups' cooperate with each other over some 'major operations' and degree of cooperation varies depending upon the importance of Operation and Groups involve.I can bet most of the people can't name top ten groups of TTP and their leaders.
6- So in that case we cannot have 'Single Strategy' for everyone, we are bound to deal with different groups differently and in 'different geographical areas', here one more important factor is foreign elements which we have to take care, we have no information to say that this number of groups are under 'foreign influence', there are some groups for sure but how many .... ??. and obviously those compromised group will follow foreign agenda under disguise of TTP ideology.
7- Is full fledge operation in North Waziristan a solution to our problem .... ?? most of the people now a days claiming this, but to me its not, as stated earlier TTP has spread in all over Pakistan and its not the only form of terrorism which we are facing (would not discuss others as the issue in debate is NW operation and TTP), please try to understand the strategically placement of TTP assets in all those area of Pakistan having strategic value in terms of Economy, Politics & National sentiments.Without any well thought strategy is it possible .... ? To me it’s not possible, and if I am not wrong than the strategic objective is bigger than our perception.
8- Related to this point outcome of previous army operations is us under
Sources: GTD, SATP, Google Data.
pls observe we launched 'Operation Sunrise (Lal Masjid) operation' in July 2007, first Sawat operation in October 2007, compare the figures of 2007 with figures for the period of 2003-2006
By Data it is clear that second half of 2007 was more bloody than the previous 4 years of 2003-2006 combined, and in 2008 this fight get more intensified due to which we launched two more operations Rah-e-Rast & Operation Rah-e-Nijat in Sawat and South Waziristan in 2009
So in short military operation has caused us 41,966 lives and 4,824 attacks in 5 years, only thing which we gain from those operations is 'TTP' if someone count it as a gain.
9- One more thing which we should understand that our militancy problem is the outcome of Lal Masjid operation of 2007, we gave them a reason to exploit, this time it’s logical to avoid any such thing, I believe we don't want TTP and other terrorist to use another excuse, This time we may witness Nationalism chant with religious angle, a very dangerous mixture for any movement
10- There was a reason our military resist NW operation in 2004, 2005, 2007 & 2009 that reason exist even today, though as an unwanted liability, one day or other foreigner will pack their bags and leave this region, but we have to live here do we have any escape route …. ??
11- So what should we do leave everything as it is …. ?? And let our hose burn down into ashes …. ?? No one says this we do have alternatives available, which does not restrict the use of appropriate force with the political engagement, I term it as the buddy system.
I have reasons to believe this.(I will try to remain concise as much possible )
1- Any militarization first target the social fabric of the society, be it insurgency or counter insurgency operations, social structure of the tribal area changed or should i say distorted due to Afghan War which initiated in 1979 with the invasion of Soviet Union, and our counter strategy to that invasion.
Without going into the detail of social effect of militarization of the tribal area, I will only hint about the status of 'Maliks and Tribal Elders' which effected due to the involvement of many of the foreign elements having backing of state, that thing undermine the power of an institution which were effective in many way including the maintenance of Law & Order.
If you people had not observed than let me point out that no Tribal Elder or Malik ever participated in activities of TTP or Taliban supportive movement before TTP, thought in early days it was hyped as Pukhtoon resistant movement against USA. In fact TTP targeted some Maliks & Tribal Sardars, who were opposing TTP.
So why is this institution so important .... because an institution of decision making and unity of tribes has been neutralized to a certain degree by the militants armed more heavily than a normal tribesman, which can be used to stop this cancer. Further,weaker social fabric and this tribal institution will benefit TTP in the form of increase recruitment of manpower & influence of militancy in Tribal Area.
2- Geographically NW is not a continuous or plain area as Sawat or Punjab, were the army can cordon-off the whole area and can move in to launch a massive operation.We need to have a support of common tribesmen, in the form of Intelligence or simply 'Buddy System'
3-Please understand that it is the first time that the leadership of TTP has gone out of Tribal Area, or I should say it has gone out from Pakistan .....it is a curse and a blessing at the same time..... we can safely assume foreign influence over the decision making of current TTP leadership ..... and if it is true as we think than the main retaliation will not come from North Waziristan it will be from our Settle Areas all over Pakistan particularly Central Punjab, Rawalpindi and Potohar region, Quetta and adjacent areas and Karachi.
4- Any full scale military operation will lead IDP Crises, which will have its impacts on political, social, economical dynamics of settled areas including metropolis centers (will not discussing in detail about political angle), but it will increase the probability of 'lone wolf' at initial stage, on later stages they may join to form new Wolf pack associated with TTP,in short new recruitment grounds for TTP and other anti national elements from inside & outside
5- There are 40-50 or some says 60 groups under TTP, having estimated strength of 40-50 thousand guerrillas by any far fetch estimate, spread in all over Pakistan, so TTP is just an 'Umbrella Organizations' & most of the groups are 'autonomous' in their operations & in their area of operation,only 'some groups' cooperate with each other over some 'major operations' and degree of cooperation varies depending upon the importance of Operation and Groups involve.I can bet most of the people can't name top ten groups of TTP and their leaders.
6- So in that case we cannot have 'Single Strategy' for everyone, we are bound to deal with different groups differently and in 'different geographical areas', here one more important factor is foreign elements which we have to take care, we have no information to say that this number of groups are under 'foreign influence', there are some groups for sure but how many .... ??. and obviously those compromised group will follow foreign agenda under disguise of TTP ideology.
7- Is full fledge operation in North Waziristan a solution to our problem .... ?? most of the people now a days claiming this, but to me its not, as stated earlier TTP has spread in all over Pakistan and its not the only form of terrorism which we are facing (would not discuss others as the issue in debate is NW operation and TTP), please try to understand the strategically placement of TTP assets in all those area of Pakistan having strategic value in terms of Economy, Politics & National sentiments.Without any well thought strategy is it possible .... ? To me it’s not possible, and if I am not wrong than the strategic objective is bigger than our perception.
8- Related to this point outcome of previous army operations is us under
Sources: GTD, SATP, Google Data.
pls observe we launched 'Operation Sunrise (Lal Masjid) operation' in July 2007, first Sawat operation in October 2007, compare the figures of 2007 with figures for the period of 2003-2006
By Data it is clear that second half of 2007 was more bloody than the previous 4 years of 2003-2006 combined, and in 2008 this fight get more intensified due to which we launched two more operations Rah-e-Rast & Operation Rah-e-Nijat in Sawat and South Waziristan in 2009
So in short military operation has caused us 41,966 lives and 4,824 attacks in 5 years, only thing which we gain from those operations is 'TTP' if someone count it as a gain.
9- One more thing which we should understand that our militancy problem is the outcome of Lal Masjid operation of 2007, we gave them a reason to exploit, this time it’s logical to avoid any such thing, I believe we don't want TTP and other terrorist to use another excuse, This time we may witness Nationalism chant with religious angle, a very dangerous mixture for any movement
10- There was a reason our military resist NW operation in 2004, 2005, 2007 & 2009 that reason exist even today, though as an unwanted liability, one day or other foreigner will pack their bags and leave this region, but we have to live here do we have any escape route …. ??
11- So what should we do leave everything as it is …. ?? And let our hose burn down into ashes …. ?? No one says this we do have alternatives available, which does not restrict the use of appropriate force with the political engagement, I term it as the buddy system.
Last edited:
FaujHistorian
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Messages
- 12,272
- Reaction score
- 43
- Country
- Location
Rain
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2009
- Messages
- 870
- Reaction score
- 3
- Country
- Location
Dear Pak One
Pakistanis are suffering due to wrong policies of the Past Military Regimes..It is time to put thing in their right place, It will cause pains grief and there will be Other Dangers(reaad foreign Invovlement). But this plag has ruined our nation, economically, culturaly and socially.
Lets Tell Tribals if there are with us or with Talebans, and we tell them to choose wisely because the consequence of the their choice will has longterm consequences, first of all for Them then for us others.
If they make a bad choice, they will bear the consequences. if they chose Pakistan, We should be there as a nation to protect and rebuild there homes. but there will some suffering because cancer is needed to be eliminated.
Policy of appeasement always fails, lets not forget that.
Pakistanis are suffering due to wrong policies of the Past Military Regimes..It is time to put thing in their right place, It will cause pains grief and there will be Other Dangers(reaad foreign Invovlement). But this plag has ruined our nation, economically, culturaly and socially.
Lets Tell Tribals if there are with us or with Talebans, and we tell them to choose wisely because the consequence of the their choice will has longterm consequences, first of all for Them then for us others.
If they make a bad choice, they will bear the consequences. if they chose Pakistan, We should be there as a nation to protect and rebuild there homes. but there will some suffering because cancer is needed to be eliminated.
Policy of appeasement always fails, lets not forget that.
niaz
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2006
- Messages
- 5,164
- Reaction score
- 211
- Country
- Location
No doubt he would. He was partly responsible for creating Taliban However I ask again what are the consequences of doing nothing?
Black Mamba1
BANNED
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2014
- Messages
- 508
- Reaction score
- -3
- Country
- Location
Doing nothing is not at all a option for Pakistan. Only thing is that the establishment has to do it is far judiciously with proper planning. Bombing by air force to its own people when you cannot avoid huge collateral damage is not a wise step and should be the last step. This is absolutely a short cut taken by army strategists without considering the other options which require more intelligence, more groundwork, more planning. Actionsshould be more pin pointed. Otherwise you will create new anemies each time instead of abolishing them.
Further , if you are compelled to do military action within the country as a last resort, it must be backed up with huge political and social initiative to prevent alienation which is also absent here.
Further , if you are compelled to do military action within the country as a last resort, it must be backed up with huge political and social initiative to prevent alienation which is also absent here.
livingdead
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2011
- Messages
- 22,952
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
Informant
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2013
- Messages
- 4,436
- Reaction score
- -5
- Country
- Location
Sure stroke that Aghani's dick for your appeasement. 4 civilian casualties, thats it. Rest of them Uzbeks mostly. Dont wanna believe, sure man have fun jerking him off.
You do realize Pak-one is an Afghani masquerading as a Pakistani right?
livingdead
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2011
- Messages
- 22,952
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
he has been here longer than you... and usually have real info about the area he is familier with. Rest are just repeating what their fauz/party/dad said... not really interesting to me.
Informant
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2013
- Messages
- 4,436
- Reaction score
- -5
- Country
- Location
In the end you expect us to carry out a policy of appeasement more or less. Do you really think we can make separate deals with different terror groups. What message does that send to the world? That we are easily strong armed by dirty tactics?
Your points regarding tribals are a little misled. Their support is ours but they are weak compared to the tactics employed by TTP. Suicide bombings have killed scores of tribal elders and supporters. Aman lashkars are nothing but cup cakes for TTP. They are nothing but token guys giving their lives up for something they cannot resist.
You do realise only a small percentage of IDP's had resentment which was cleared later up. There will be here again, but so be it once and for all.
The SWAT operation had huge public backing because they actually saw and heard what the TTP were doing. The videos, the endless suffering of the people there was heard through out the country. NW operation will happen in time, one thing about Nooras is they can pull public opinion in favor of the operation which is very much a prerequisite for an operation.
According our estimates over 60% of the populace is now in favor of hitting back. The rest are still confused between brotherhood and Islam. This is the MO of TTP, blackmail on Islam. Mark my words if we dont act now with the force of Thor's Hammer then this parasite will rear it ugly head ( which it yet has to ). The reason Political class is dilly dallying is due to the threats of violence against political class and they are one of the most easily intimidated.
Lastly every terror attack in the foreign world has some guy who had training in NW. Man do you not feel ashamed in attacks from US, UK, Italy, and other failed attempts through out the world has links to some asshole that uses our soil to conduct training? It is our duty to the country and the world to rid the TTP of the area of Pakistan to welcome and train foreign terrorists?
My opinion is we die like its nothing, Lal masjid so many people say it was wrong. A fucking mosque in downtown Islamabad was in the hands of these extremists with all kinds of weapons. Do you think had we not acted the foreign pressure would have crushed us. We live in the 21st century we are answerable to the world. So what if ran an upsurge of violence? Are we going to pussy out? **** no man, this is it.
he has been here longer than you... and usually have real info about the area he is familier with. Rest are just repeating what their fauz/party/dad said... not really interesting to me.
He is here longer than welcome. If he so hates Pakistan why doesnt he run off to Afghanistan? Because his country is a shithole and he rather badmouth us and live here
Oh btw the figures he put up are devoid of proper sources. And i work in regards intelligence gathering, so i dont need his "info" from his "sources". We have 10 times better than him
HRK
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
- Messages
- 14,108
- Reaction score
- 122
- Country
- Location
hint : 'Shah Ahmed Shaheed' ...
livingdead
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2011
- Messages
- 22,952
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
I like your enthusiasm but you are still a new recruit here.He is here longer than welcome. If he so hates Pakistan why doesnt he run off to Afghanistan? Because his country is a shithole and he rather badmouth us and live here
Oh btw the figures he put up are devoid of proper sources. And i work in regards intelligence gathering, so i dont need his "info" from his "sources". We have 10 times better than him
As regards to calling somebody afgan just because he sympathizes with his tribe/people, how wise is that? This mentality alleniates your own people and creates division in society.
Even if he is so called 'taliban sympathiser', he needs to be heard.
Bratva
PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2010
- Messages
- 13,832
- Reaction score
- 67
- Country
- Location
In the end you expect us to carry out a policy of appeasement more or less. Do you really think we can make separate deals with different terror groups. What message does that send to the world? That we are easily strong armed by dirty tactics?
Your points regarding tribals are a little misled. Their support is ours but they are weak compared to the tactics employed by TTP. Suicide bombings have killed scores of tribal elders and supporters. Aman lashkars are nothing but cup cakes for TTP. They are nothing but token guys giving their lives up for something they cannot resist.
You do realise only a small percentage of IDP's had resentment which was cleared later up. There will be here again, but so be it once and for all.
The SWAT operation had huge public backing because they actually saw and heard what the TTP were doing. The videos, the endless suffering of the people there was heard through out the country. NW operation will happen in time, one thing about Nooras is they can pull public opinion in favor of the operation which is very much a prerequisite for an operation.
According our estimates over 60% of the populace is now in favor of hitting back. The rest are still confused between brotherhood and Islam. This is the MO of TTP, blackmail on Islam. Mark my words if we dont act now with the force of Thor's Hammer then this parasite will rear it ugly head ( which it yet has to ). The reason Political class is dilly dallying is due to the threats of violence against political class and they are one of the most easily intimidated.
Lastly every terror attack in the foreign world has some guy who had training in NW. Man do you not feel ashamed in attacks from US, UK, Italy, and other failed attempts through out the world has links to some asshole that uses our soil to conduct training? It is our duty to the country and the world to rid the TTP of the area of Pakistan to welcome and train foreign terrorists?
My opinion is we die like its nothing, Lal masjid so many people say it was wrong. A fucking mosque in downtown Islamabad was in the hands of these extremists with all kinds of weapons. Do you think had we not acted the foreign pressure would have crushed us. We live in the 21st century we are answerable to the world. So what if ran an upsurge of violence? Are we going to pussy out? **** no man, this is it.
He is here longer than welcome. If he so hates Pakistan why doesnt he run off to Afghanistan? Because his country is a shithole and he rather badmouth us and live here
Oh btw the figures he put up are devoid of proper sources. And i work in regards intelligence gathering, so i dont need his "info" from his "sources". We have 10 times better than him
Airforce Intelligence nai app ko chaye par bula layn ahai mohtaram. kai bohot boltay ho tm internet par
he has been here longer than you... and usually have real info about the area he is familier with. Rest are just repeating what their fauz/party/dad said... not really interesting to me.
He lives 200-300 KM away from Waziristan. I don't know what real info he has about his area.
And yeah, he is afghani migrant.
Similar threads
