Congressi Propaganda: Hindu Majority provinces and Muslim Majority provinces can't live together

[scorpionx]

@Guynextdoor2:

The problem is while reading the history of partition,we Indians straight away jump to Jinnah's 14 points and his insistence on separate electorate. But many of us feel convenient to exclude two facts.

First,For Mr.Jinnah separate electorate was a temporary but necessary evil to protect the Minority's interests.

Secondly,he was ready to give up his demand of separate electorate and replace it with joint electorates,with a minimum number (1/3rd) of minorities representation in MMPs and HMPs to protect their respective interests. This was famously known Delhi Muslim Proposal. For conservative Pro-British leaders like Sir Fazli Hussain and Sir Muhammad Shafi this was an enormous risk Mr.Jinnah was taking.

About this time Mr.Jinnah's wife Ruttie was severely sick and Jinnah left India to take care of her.When he returns he finds that due to some dubious reasons (probably influenced by Hindu Mahasabha) the Nehru report reduced the number of minority representation from 1/3rd to 1/4th. Jinnah again went for negotiations. What was the reaction of Congress and HMS? well,he was called naughty child and there was no need to consult with him when his own faction (read Mr.Chagla) has agreed upon the report. This is where Jinnah changed his stance and actively turned to the pro-British Shafi and Agha Khani factions.

Almost 16 years later, cabinet mission failed to achieve it's objective.But surprise,surprise!! It was not the devil above who was responsible for it.

The point of all these discussions is not to blame Congress for the partition,as you said in later of your post. Mountbatten,ML,HMS all are equally responsible for this sadistic climax of the freedom struggle.These are just series of events we are discussing which are deliberately obliterated from Indian History and needs a complete revival. As an Indian,we should and must know how in order to cover up our own failures we created a demon to blame upon everything.

Try to understand @scorpionx (Scorp, please correct me if I paraphrased it wrong).

Spot on Fauj sahib. This is what I was telling.Bulls eye. I do not have much knowledge about Egyptian freedom struggle.But I read that the Coptics and Wafd party out rightly rejected the British plan to electoral representation based on any religious reservations. Any ways, I am looking for your comments on this I am very little informed on this subject.

 

[scorpionx]

Dear @adwityagrata:

I blame the Muslim scholars in the AICC first. What was they doing by that time? For ordinary muslims anything in Arabic was a Godly lyrics from heaven because they did not understood a word of it.But this what was being fetched to them during 20's. An ordinary muslim did not know that what was happening in Turkey and Balkans was not a holy war but a pure political struggle.Muslim scholars of Congress failed to comprehend knowingly or unknowingly that they are driving Indian Muslims from a secular and liberal understanding of Islam towards a communal and more harder line of intolerance.

 

[adwityagrata]

Dear @adwityagrata:

I blame the Muslim scholars in the AICC first. What was they doing by that time? For ordinary muslims anything in Arabic was a Godly lyrics from heaven because they did not understood a word of it.But this what was being fetched to them during 20's. An ordinary muslim did not know that what was happening in Turkey and Balkans was not a holy war but a pure political struggle.Muslim scholars of Congress failed to comprehend knowingly or unknowingly that they are driving Indian Muslims from a secular and liberal understanding of Islam towards a communal and more harder line of intolerance.

This sounds eerily like the same game we play nowadays demonizing the politicians for everything that is wrong with India. Its always easier to blame others than accept responsibility.

The muslims of India made a choice. If you disagree with that choice and want to blame the mulla's, the scholars, the congress or even the british that is your prerogative.

I personally would like to hold people accountable for their choices rather than blame others. But that is just me.

 

[scorpionx]

This sounds eerily like the same game we play nowadays demonizing the politicians for everything that is wrong with India. Its always easier to blame others than accept responsibility.

Completely agree.This is what we are doing skillfully for years.Thank you.

 

[adwityagrata]

Completely agree.This is what we are doing skillfully for years.Thank you.

Are you accusing Indians of blaming anyone ? we only acknowledge and accept who demanded separate reservation and special treatment and subsequent escalation for TNT.

Every Indian I know is glad it happened. There is nothing to blame.

 

[scorpionx]

Are you accusing Indians of blaming anyone ? we only acknowledge and accept who demanded separate reservation and special treatment and subsequent escalation for TNT.

Every Indian I know is glad it happened. There is nothing to blame.

Well, there is nothing collective sort of reaction about partition.Some believe it should not have happened,some says it was good to be divided while others choose to remain indifferent. My intention was to come out of junior school version of freedom struggle and discuss it from an wider perspective.

You are right in the sense that there is nothing to be blamed or mourned after so many years but true essence of academic studies comes out only when discussing it from a neutral point of view,that's all I wanted. Thanks.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Dear @adwityagrata:

I blame the Muslim scholars in the AICC first. What was they doing by that time? For ordinary muslims anything in Arabic was a Godly lyrics from heaven because they did not understood a word of it.But this what was being fetched to them during 20's. An ordinary muslim did not know that what was happening in Turkey and Balkans was not a holy war but a pure political struggle.Muslim scholars of Congress failed to comprehend knowingly or unknowingly that they are driving Indian Muslims from a secular and liberal understanding of Islam towards a communal and more harder line of intolerance.

Right on!

I'd like to add a bit, if I may. This was the time that Gandhi Ji and other Congressi Hindu leaders could have pulled back a little on this Khilafat movement drama. Just to show the light to the Mullahs sitting in Gandhi Ji's tonga, bus, motor car, or whatever.

But sadly it didn't happen.

It is almost like Hindu leadership (secular however it may be) wanted to encourage Mullahs, extremists within Congress and without.

And thus

Gandhi Ji while talking about non-violence down to the teeth,

Cames out and suports the extremist Islamist movement aka Khilafat movement.


This movement destroyed so many Muslim young men, smart men, men who could have proven their potential for their motherland aka INdian subcontinent.


But they didn't, and thanks to Congressi Mullahs and Gandhi Ji,

majority of them died hungry and cold, right in the dead of Kabul winters.


This is all the while Jinnah's anti-Khilafat statements were drowned out by Congressi and Hindu press.


I wish Gandhi Ji would have come out supporting Jinnah on this, in the long term interests of the people, people of INdian subcontinent.



peace

Are you accusing Indians of blaming anyone ? we only acknowledge and accept who demanded separate reservation and special treatment and subsequent escalation for TNT.

Every Indian I know is glad it happened. There is nothing to blame.

It will be grave injustice if this thread gets used to play "blame game".

As scorp ji has said,

We are trying to complete the story of Indian subcontinent.

The story that has been badly cut and terribly pasted by the political elite.

And this incomplete story, this censorship, this nonsensical attitude towards our shared history,

is wrecking a havoc on the ways we treat each other now or perhaps we'll do in future.



So please understand


That we are discussing different actors, and their roles in the "story".


Many such actors and their roles have been incorrectly presented by the entrenched "Mullahs" (both Muslim and Hindu) and they try to treat us the educated men, as if we are goats and cows.



And this thread is meant to say, we the Pakistani and Indian educated class cannot be treated as goats and cows by our ruling elite, our text book writers.


peace

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Dear @adwityagrata:

I blame the Muslim scholars in the AICC first. What was they doing by that time? For ordinary muslims anything in Arabic was a Godly lyrics from heaven because they did not understood a word of it.But this what was being fetched to them during 20's. An ordinary muslim did not know that what was happening in Turkey and Balkans was not a holy war but a pure political struggle.Muslim scholars of Congress failed to comprehend knowingly or unknowingly that they are driving Indian Muslims from a secular and liberal understanding of Islam towards a communal and more harder line of intolerance.

I don't understand the purpose of this point. Khilafat movement was mistakingly considered b Gandhi as an opportunity to bring hindus and muslims together by showing hindu solidarity with a 'key' muslim cause. The intent cannot be faulted and maybe the importance of the issues was misjudged by Gandhi. But there is no evidence to prove that his support of that movement led to partittion or irreversible animosity. As worst it created a bemusement among certain sections of mulsim community that a non issue is being supported. Big deal. mistakes happen all the time and in this case without much real consequence. WHy should this point be brought in to start with then?

 

[adwityagrata]

I dont agree with that part ... in 1947 we Hindu Nationalist where totally against Partition ... and infact that was the main reason y RSS became Anti-Congress...

The Fight became Ugly when one among us Veer Nathuram Godse decided to gun down Gandi for partition and other concession given to Pakistan... ( even today Ashes of veer Nathuram Godse is stored as per his wish that, it will only be immersed when river sindhu flows in India)...

But today most Hindu Nationalist think that what ever happened was good for us... and respect Sardar patel as the real hero cause he managed to grab as much as land and keep India united...


And Congress now and even then had nothing to do with Hindutva and Hindus ... infact most of their leaders where totally against Hindu Nationalist and considered RSS on par with Muslim League even worse...

while very few leaders in congress like Sardar patel was sympathetic with Hindu Nationalist ... But Nehru a Pseudo Socialist and Pseudo Secularist managed to sideline all of these type leaders in congress finally... and net result is a Anti-Hindu Congress today...

Jinnah was a good politician with bad luck... but he kept his loyalty with Muslims... and delivered what he promised to Muslims ...

But Congress ( Nehru and Gandi) never made any promises to Hindus but turned out to be a bad Politician with good luck...

You need to understand that in 1947 the congress was a Hindutva party. The congress was not under the control of Nehru or his clan then. That happened much later.

Nathuram Godse was an principled Idealist and he worshiped Gandhi because he thought Gandhi was an principled idealist too and put Gandhi on a pedestal. He killed Gandhi because he thought Gandhi abandoned his principles for political expediency.

If Nathuram Godse had recognized Gandhi for what he really was, a brilliant and dedicated politician with an indomitable will and desire to free India, but with a understandable weakness for abandoning certain principles for a more practical solution, he would have been less inclined to kill him.

He judged Gandhi by the very high exacting standards he had set for Gandhi. Not by the standards which Gandhi chose.

It is futile to judge the older congress by the standards of the present day congress party.

 

[scorpionx]

I don't understand the purpose of this point. Khilafat movement was mistakingly considered b Gandhi as an opportunity to bring hindus and muslims together by showing hindu solidarity with a 'key' muslim cause. The intent cannot be faulted and maybe the importance of the issues was misjudged by Gandhi. But there is no evidence to prove that his support of that movement led to partittion or irreversible animosity. As worst it created a bemusement among certain sections of mulsim community that a non issue is being supported. Big deal. mistakes happen all the time and in this case without much real consequence. WHy should this point be brought in to start with then?

Kindly arrange the series of events that happened since 1909 to 1946 keeping Khialafat movement in the middle,as a buffer zone. This movement was a milestone from where the Pro-Congressi faction in Muslim League slowly drifted away from the main course of our national movement. I will try to point out what were the grave consequences of this movements which is still eroding our social and moral fabrics,both in India and Pakistan as well.

This was the very movement from when Islam was "politicized" in the subcontinent by the formation of Jamiat-e-Ulama-e-Hind. From this point the Muslim clergies started intervening in Indian politics. Ironically, sons and grandsons of this party,today dictates which is real Islam and which is not.

This was the movement from where we, Indians started mixing up Muslim nationalism with politics based upon religious ideologies.We failed utterly to comprehend that we have given birth to a Frankenstein which was in coming days going to swallow Nehru's idea of a secular India and Jinnah's dream of a liberal Islamic Pakistan.

This is where lies the importance of Khilafat,the blunder which could neither be reversed nor rectified. Congress,sadly did not attempt to learn from it's mistakes and wrongly chose Jinnah to be the devil to be blamed.

 

[Nair saab]

You need to understand that in 1947 the congress was a Hindutva party. The congress was not under the control of Nehru or his clan then. That happened much later.

Nathuram Godse was an principled Idealist and he worshiped Gandhi because he thought Gandhi was an principled idealist too and put Gandhi on a pedestal. He killed Gandhi because he thought Gandhi abandoned his principles for political expediency.

If Nathuram Godse had recognized Gandhi for what he really was, a brilliant and dedicated politician with an indomitable will and desire to free India, but with a understandable weakness for abandoning certain principles for a more practical solution, he would have been less inclined to kill him.

He judged Gandhi by the very high exacting standards he had set for Gandhi. Not by the standards which Gandhi chose.

It is futile to judge the older congress by the standards of the present day congress party.

Gandi was a Rascal... He deserved a Bullet long before... Veer Naturam Godseji is a Martyr in real sense ...

Congress where, is and will be the illegitimate children's of British ... they are parasites who lay no claim on India, its culture and its people...

Congress is the continuation of imperialistic policies of British and There is nothing Indianess in them ... And was was British puppet who was used to implant weakness among Hindus ...

Cause British knew when the tide of Hindus as a religion would come together they wont stand chance and would have to exit India in Humiliation ...

 

[adwityagrata]

Kindly arrange the series of events that happened since 1909 to 1946 keeping Khialafat movement in the middle,as a buffer zone. This movement was a milestone from where the Pro-Congressi faction in Muslim League slowly drifted away from the main course of our national movement. I will try to point out what were the grave consequences of this movements which is still eroding our social and moral fabrics,both in India and Pakistan as well.

This was the very movement from when Islam was "politicized" in the subcontinent by the formation of Jamiat-e-Ulama-e-Hind. From this point the Muslim clergies started intervening in Indian politics. Ironically, sons and grandsons of this party,today dictates which is real Islam and which is not.

This was the movement from where we, Indians started mixing up Muslim nationalism with politics based upon religious ideologies.We failed utterly to comprehend that we have given birth to a Frankenstein which was in coming days going to swallow Nehru's idea of a secular India and Jinnah's dream of a liberal Islamic Pakistan.

This is where lies the importance of Khilafat,the blunder which could neither be reversed nor rectified. Congress,sadly did not attempt to learn from it's mistakes and wrongly chose Jinnah to be the devil to be blamed.

The founding meeting of the All India Muslim League was held in Dhaka in 1906. Khilafat movement in India started in 1920.

Where is the connection ?

It is a good thing that the idea of Nehru's secularism is being destroyed. Secularism in India has long been fractured by the burden of carrying the guilt of Nehru's ambition.

India's secularism is not Nehru's gift. It is India's gift to nehru which he twisted to fuel his ambition.

Gandi was a Rascal... He deserved a Bullet long before... Veer Naturam Godseji is a Martyr in real sense ...

Congress where, is and will be the illegitimate children's of British ... they are parasites who lay no claim on India, its culture and its people...

Congress is the continuation of imperialistic policies of British and There is nothing Indianess in them ... And was was British puppet who was used to implant weakness among Hindus ...

Cause British knew when the tide of Hindus as a religion would come together they wont stand chance and would have to exit India in Humiliation ...

Gandhi did what the people asked him to do. Why blame him ? Godse had no business judging Gandhi and then appoint himself the executioner.

As I said, do not mistake the All India congress of 1947 with the Congress (Indira) Party that is in existence today. That would be a great disservice to the people of India.

 

[scorpionx]

The founding meeting of the All India Muslim League was held in Dhaka in 1906. Khilafat movement in India started in 1920.

Where is the connection ?

It is a good thing that the idea of Nehru's secularism is being destroyed. Secularism in India has long been fractured by the burden of carrying the guilt of Nehru's ambition.

India's secularism is not Nehru's gift. It is India's gift to nehru which he twisted to fuel his ambition.

If we analyse the events,characters,their stand points and change of stance later, we can easily dig out the connection. Sir Sayed,the inspiration of the flag holders of Muslim League had said in TNT that Hindus and Muslims are two eyes of this country. During Khilafat, these two eyes started drifting apart and gave birth to a deformed face of divided India.There are several other factors,critical years like 1916,1928,1933,1939 and 1946 which need to be thoroughly studied. Then you will clearly understand the connection you are asking for.

Secondly,Nehru's idea of secularism was bound to face difficult challenges. What ever happened in Bombay with Khurshed Nariman and in Bihar with Dr.Sayed Mahmud during 1935 was a prelude to what was coming in the following years.But ideas flourish only after facing gruesome challenges and fortunately a large part of the Indian and Pakistani society still hopes to reverberate the ideologies dreamed by the respective founding fathers,no matter the appalling degree of criticism they face even after seventy years.

 

[Nair saab]

Gandhi did what the people asked him to do. Why blame him ? Godse had no business judging Gandhi and then appoint himself the executioner.

As I said, do not mistake the All India congress of 1947 with the Congress (Indira) Party that is in existence today. That would be a great disservice to the people of India.

Congress Including every congressi from its founder Allan Octavian Hume to present Rahul gandi to their mentor Nehru and Gandi all where Rascals ...

And their present followers are fools ...

Veer Nathuram's act was correct...

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Gandi was a Rascal... He deserved a Bullet long before... Veer Naturam Godseji is a Martyr in real sense ...

Congress where, is and will be the illegitimate children's of British ... they are parasites who lay no claim on India, its culture and its people...

Congress is the continuation of imperialistic policies of British and There is nothing Indianess in them ... And was was British puppet who was used to implant weakness among Hindus ...

Cause British knew when the tide of Hindus as a religion would come together they wont stand chance and would have to exit India in Humiliation ...

I ALWAYS like to read Nair Saabji's posts

If we analyse the events,characters,their stand points and change of stance later, we can easily dig out the connection. Sir Sayed,the inspiration of the flag holders of Muslim League had said in TNT that Hindus and Muslims are two eyes of this country. During Khilafat, these two eyes started drifting apart and gave birth to a deformed face of divided India.There are several other factors,critical years like 1916,1928,1933,1939 and 1946 which need to be thoroughly studied. Then you will clearly understand the connection you are asking for.

Secondly,Nehru's idea of secularism was bound to face difficult challenges. What ever happened in Bombay with Khurshed Nariman and in Bihar with Dr.Sayed Mahmud during 1935 was a prelude to what was coming in the following years.But ideas flourish only after facing gruesome challenges and fortunately a large part of the Indian and Pakistani society still hopes to reverberate the ideologies dreamed by the respective founding fathers,no matter the appalling degree of criticism they face even after seventy years.

So, you will prove that the Khilafat movement was the reason why India got partitioned?