Comparison of PAF F-7s and IAF MiG-21s

[Keysersoze]

So you saying it would enter Pakistani Service though it did not enter the Chinese service.

If it was needed yes.......However like I said the original need to do so, is not as great. And to clear up a point the question was....

"I think if no major modifications were required to the F-7pg to use the SD-10 then the PAF would have done so long ago. Same goes for the F-16 A/B."

Here he shows a complete lack of background knowledge as to why the F-16 A/B AND the F-7 did not have missiles. Here's a clue.....Embargo

Then

"The first link says "Marconi Super Skyranger radar did not meet the PAF requirements, the F-7PG is fitted with an I-band Italian FIAR Grifo-7 pulse-Doppler fire-control radar (37km range), which was optimised to fire the U.S.-made AIM-9L all-aspect short-range AAM"

Radar optimised for a IR missile??????ooops

And the question was not about when but rather about capability

 

[EagleEyes]

Or may be i am just simply wrong and Pakistan did acquire SD-10 before for operational use, but i highly doubt it.

 

[mirage_lover]

I personally come to the conclusion that the Indian Mig21s are better than the PAF F7s..mainly due to BVR disadvantage.

If i am not mistaken, all our F7s need now are BVR missiles. JUST the missiles

 

[Fishbed]

I think we have had enough discussions on BVR AAMs......

How about a comparison of other factors between the two aircraft like:

1. Powerplant
2. ECM capabilities
3. Air to Ground Munitions and Short Range AAMs
4. Helmet mounted sights (HMS)
5. HUDs, RWRs etc......

 

[Fishbed]

Then

"The first link says "Marconi Super Skyranger radar did not meet the PAF requirements, the F-7PG is fitted with an I-band Italian FIAR Grifo-7 pulse-Doppler fire-control radar (37km range), which was optimised to fire the U.S.-made AIM-9L all-aspect short-range AAM"

Radar optimised for a IR missile??????ooops

Its from a "respected source" called SinoDefence

Here is the link again:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j7e.asp

I guess if they made some mistakes describing the the F-7 of the PAF then can surely make some mistakes regarding the JF-17

So no one should ever quote from SinoDefence!

 

[melb4aust]

Its from a "respected source" called SinoDefence

Here is the link again:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j7e.asp

I guess if they made some mistakes describing the the F-7 of the PAF then can surely make some mistakes regarding the JF-17

So no one should ever quote from SinoDefence!

There...is'nt much of the info regarding to F-7PG's there....which is totally a different variant....and alot more advance than the other F-7 variants, cause of its western avionics. Try to find some more info...u may get it.

 

[BATMAN]

I personally come to the conclusion that the Indian Mig21s are better than the PAF F7s..mainly due to BVR disadvantage.

Leaving aside your personal conclusions and going back to discussion.
We know, F-7 is an improved derivative of basic Mig21 and F-7 PG houses Grifo-7MG (search 55km, multi target track able) and as described above can be used to fire and control BVR missiles. So where do you see disadvantage.

If i am not mistaken, all our F7s need now are BVR missiles. JUST the missiles

We all know PAF posses hundreds of SD10 and only mirrage initially were not BVR able, thats why they under went ROSE upgrade. Since mirrage became the new share holder of existing SD10 stocks, so PAF ordered more.
FYI, Now almost all PAF fleet is BVR able.
So don't jump to conclusions very fast.

 

[Fishbed]

BATMAN, Please reading all the previous postings in this thread before you jump to any conclusions.....

We all know PAF posses hundreds of SD10 and only mirrage initially were not BVR able, thats why they under went ROSE upgrade. Since mirrage became the new share holder of existing SD10 stocks, so PAF ordered more.
FYI, Now almost all PAF fleet is BVR able.

If this is the case then I think all the previous discussions on this thread were pointless.

 

[Keysersoze]

Its from a "respected source" called SinoDefence

Here is the link again:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j7e.asp

I guess if they made some mistakes describing the the F-7 of the PAF then can surely make some mistakes regarding the JF-17

So no one should ever quote from SinoDefence!

Ok lets lets apply your "logic" elsewhere shall we? Here is a list of stats for the Mig-21 from FAS

Countries of Origin Russia / China
Builder Mikoyan-Gurevich [Russia]
Xian Aircraft [China] @ Shenyang, Chengdu & Guizhou
# Variants MiG-21F Fishbed C
# MiG-21PF Fishbed D
# MiG-21PFM Fishbed F
# MiG-21R Fishbed H
# MiG-21S Fishbed H
# MiG-21RF Fishbed H
# MiG-21SM Fishbed J
# MiG-21M (Type 96/Hindustan Aeronautics-India)
# MiG-21PFMA Fishbed J
# MiG-21MF Fishbed J
# MiG-21SMT Fishbed K
# MiG-21SMB Fishbed K
# MiG-21bis-A Fishbed L
# MiG-21bis-B Fishbed N
# MiG-21U Mongol A
# MiG-21US Mongol B
# MiG-21UM Mongol B
# J-7 / F-7 Fishbed
# J-7 II / F-7B Fishbed
# J-7 III Fishbed
# F-7M Airguard
# F-7P Skybolt
# Similar Aircraft Fitters, all models,
# Mirage III/5,
# A-4 Skyhawk
# Role Ground-attack
# interceptor,
# trainer
Span 23 ft. 6 in.
Length 51 ft. 9 in.
Height 15 ft. 9 in.
Weight 18,080 lbs. max.
Engines MiG-21 = Tumansky R-11F-300 @ 12,675 lbst w/afterburner
J-7 III = Wopen-13 turbofan @ 14,550-lbst
Crew One
Maximum speed 1,300 mph.
Cruising speed 550 mph.
Range MIG-21 = 400 mi range
MIG-21bis = 600 nm range
J-7 = 230 mi / 370 km lo-lo-lo radius
J-7B = 375 mi / 600 km radius w/ 2 PL-2 AAM + internal fuel
J-7B = 450 mi / 750 km radius w/ 2 PL-2 AAM + drop tanks
J-7M = 550 mi / 875 km radius w/ 2 PL-2 AAM + drop tanks
J-7 III = 525 mi / 850 km radius hi-hi-hi air superiority w/ 2 AAM + drop tanks
J-7 III = 340 mi / 550 km radius lo-lo-hi ground attack w/ 2 bombs + drop tanks
J-7 III = 1,350 mi / 2,200 km ferry range
Service Ceiling 50,000 ft / 14000 meters
Internal Fuel 2277 kg MIG-21pfs
2364 kg MIG-21bis
869 kg J-8
In-Flight Refueling No
Drop Tanks MIG-21bis = Drop tank with 391kg of fuel for 51nm range
MIG-21bis = Drop tank with 631kg of fuel for 80nm range
MIG-21bis = Drop tank with 391kg of fuel for 50nm range
J-7 = 800 l drop tank with 639kg of fuel for 111nm range
Take-Off Runway F-7M = 700-950 m (2,300-3,120 ft)
J-7 III = 800 m (2,625 ft) with afterburning
Landing Runway F-7M = 600-900 m (1,970-2,955 ft) with brake-chute
J-7 III = 550 m (1,805 ft) with flap blowing, drag-chute and brakes
Sensors MIG-21pfs = Spin Scan (R1L) radar, RWR, Balistic bombsight MIG-21bis = Jay Bird radar, RWR, Balistic bombsight
J-7 = Type 222 ranging radar, RWR, Ballistic bombsight
Armament One NR-30 30mm cannon plus
MIG-21pfs = K-13 AA-2 atoll, FAB-500, FAB-250, UV-16-67 rocket pods
MIG-21bis = UV-69 57 rocket pods, AA-8 Aphid, FAB-250, FAB-500
J-7 = 2 PL-2 or PL-7 AAM and 1 800 L drop tank (685 nm)


I guess FAS are saying that the Mig 21 has no BVR then....

Origin: USSR
Type: multi-role fighter
Max Speed: 1,203 kt / 1,385 mph
Max Range: 1,160 km / 721 miles
Dimensions: span 7.15 m / 23 ft 5.5 in
length 15.76 m / 51 ft 8.5 in
height 4.10 m / 13 ft 5.4 in
Weight: empty 5,200 kg / 11,464 lb
max. take-off 22,925 lb /
10,400 kg
Powerplant: one 7500-kg (16,535-lb) afterburning thrust Tumanskii R-25 turbojet
Armament: one 23-mm GSh-23 two-barrel cannon with 200 rounds, plus four underwing pylons suitable for AA-2 'Atoll' orAA-8 'Aphid' AAMs, UV-16-57 rocket launchers, 500- or 250-kg (1,102- or 551-lb) bombs, S-24 240-mm(9.45-in) air-to-surface rockets, or drop tanks

Nope no BVR there either......
http://www.combataircraft.com/aircraft/fmig21.aspx

Armament of the MiG-21
Weapon Description Launcher A B Versions
NR-30 cannon - - 2
1 F
F-13
GP-9 gun pod with GSh-23 cannon - - 1 FL, PFM, S
GSh-23 cannon - - 1 M, MF, SM, SMT, bis
A-12,7 machine gun - - 1 U, US, UM
S-5 / M / K unguided air-to-ground missile UB-16
UB-32 16
32 2 / 4 all
SM, MF, SMT, bis
S-21 unguided air-to-ground missile APU-2 / PU-12 1 2 F-13
S-24 unguided air-to-ground missile APU-68 1 2 / 4 all
Kh-66 radar guided air-to-ground missile APU-68UE 1 2 / 4 all single-seaters from PFM on
R-2US radar guided air-to-air missile APU-7 1 2 / 4 all single-seaters from PF on
R-55 IR guided air-to-air missile APU-68UM 1 2 S, SM, SMT, bis
R-3S IR guided air-to-air missile APU-13U / M
RBP-2-R-3S 1
2 2 / 4
2 all from F-13 on
PF, PFM
R-3R IR guided air-to-air missile APU-13U / M 1 2 / 4 all single-seaters from PF on
R-3P target missile APU-13U / M 1 2 / 4 all single-seaters from PF on
R-13M IR guided air-to-air missile APU-13MT 1 4 SM, MF, SMT, bis
R-60 / MK IR guided air-to-air missile P-62-1M
P-62-2M 1
2 4
2 SM, MF, SMT, bis
bis
FAB-100 100kg free fall bomb -
MBD-2-67U -
4 2 / 4
2 all
FAB-250 250kg free fall bomb - - 2 / 4 all
FAB-500 500kg free fall bomb - - 2 all
244N 450kg nuclear bomb BD3-66-21N 1 1 all single-seaters from PFM on

http://www.mig-21.de/english/technicaldataarmament.htm

Hmmmm anyone see any BVR missiles there? nope me either......

Armament One NR-30 30mm cannon plus
MIG-21pfs = K-13 AA-2 atoll, FAB-500, FAB-250, UV-16-67 rocket pods
MIG-21bis = UV-69 57 rocket pods, AA-8 Aphid, FAB-250, FAB-500
J-7 = 2 PL-2 or PL-7 AAM and 1 800 L drop tank (685 nm)

Nope nothing from another respected source either........

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-21-specs.htm

I could go on with this and remove pretty much ALL sources for you NOT to quote from after all with your impeccable logic it would be incorrect for you to do so.............

 

[EagleEyes]

Or may be i am just simply wrong and Pakistan did acquire SD-10 before for operational use, but i highly doubt it.

Hey hey hey!

^ Now I have no doubts about it.

 

[Keysersoze]

Hey hey hey!

^ Now I have no doubts about it.

Well do share Webby.........

 

[EagleEyes]

Well do share Webby.........

Not for sharing. Unless it is permitted by the source.

PM me.

 

[pg7]

FishBed, i think u should be able to at least differenciate between what is meant by having BVR ability and what is meant by actually using it. It has also been mentioned in sinodefence that paf f-7 have limited BVR capability due to griffo 7 limited track range of 37.7 KM. Although it is another matter that war proven bvrs only have range upto 40km. Moreover the radars being used by f-7 and f-7pg have same ranges, only difference is RCS of these radars. The missiles in use by PAF now for bvr role are AIM-X for f-16 and fd-60 and denel darter missiles are being used on mirages. The reason for not using these missiles on f-7 is to utilise missiles max range and to enhance f-7 wings life. I think its enough to conclude for BVRs. Regarding eccmnad rwrs, since paf uses chinese and western mixture, so they are better than the russian crap on mig-21 bis.

 

[PakSniper]

Webby why were you just talking to yourself?

 

[Fishbed]

FishBed, i think u should be able to at least differenciate between what is meant by having BVR ability and what is meant by actually using it. It has also been mentioned in sinodefence that paf f-7 have limited BVR capability due to griffo 7 limited track range of 37.7 KM. Although it is another matter that war proven bvrs only have range upto 40km. Moreover the radars being used by f-7 and f-7pg have same ranges, only difference is RCS of these radars. The missiles in use by PAF now for bvr role are AIM-X for f-16 and fd-60 and denel darter missiles are being used on mirages. The reason for not using these missiles on f-7 is to utilise missiles max range and to enhance f-7 wings life. I think its enough to conclude for BVRs. Regarding eccmnad rwrs, since paf uses chinese and western mixture, so they are better than the russian crap on mig-21 bis.

I started this thread to compare Mig-21s currently serving in The IAF and PAF F-7s. If PAF are not equipped with BVR missiles currently then I consider them to be not BVR capable as of now. Hypothetically many missiles can be fitted to many different aircraft but I was comparing what armaments are currently available.

If war broke out between US and Iran would Iranian F-14s be equipped with AIM-54s? Theoretically its possible, but it reality they wont.(Dont tell me about Iranian developed Aim-54 equivalents )

Can you give me a link proving BVR missiles are currently fitted to PAF F-16s?

Also for your reason for not deploying BVR missiles on F-7s, please read some of the previous posts in this thread, some members have said no missiles were available to be fitted.

Regarding the "Russian crap" ECM and RWR, which version of Mig-21 are you talking about? A Mig-21FL or what?

Also what is the reason Russian weapons are crap? Doesnt china sell updated version of a 50 year old Mig-21 to PAF? doesnt China make versions of Russian AAMs and Radars?