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Comparison of PAF F-7s and IAF MiG-21s

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I think if no major modifications were required to the F-7pg to use the SD-10 then the PAF would have done so long ago. Same goes for the F-16 A/B.

As Paksniper stated in another thread, the Grifo is compatible with the Sd-10 which has been ordered. (300 units)

The MLU's will all have the BVR ability. The reason that Chinese missiles were not used with the F-16's is simple. Americans would not allow Chinese access to the relevant software/hardware in order to allow compatiblity.The Aim120 has eliminated the need for it.

So in conclusion

F-7's DO have BVR capability
As do ROSE Mirages
As will all the F-16's
As does the JF-17
 
As Paksniper stated in another thread, the Grifo is compatible with the Sd-10 which has been ordered. (300 units)

The MLU's will all have the BVR ability. The reason that Chinese missiles were not used with the F-16's is simple. Americans would not allow Chinese access to the relevant software/hardware in order to allow compatiblity.The Aim120 has eliminated the need for it.

So in conclusion

F-7's DO have BVR capability
As do ROSE Mirages
As will all the F-16's
As does the JF-17

My question is that if PAFs F-7s have BVR capability then why are they not equipped with BVR missiles? Whats the use of having a F-14 Tomcat capable of firing Phoenixes when it will only be used for firing Sidewinders?

Its been 5 years since the latest batch of F-7s were delivered from China. Why does the PAF not fit BVR missiles when they are already compatible?

Here is description of weapons carried by the F-7 from Pakistan Defence:

Armaments

Two 30 mm Type 30-1 belt-fed cannon, with 60rds/gun, in fairings under front fuselage just forward of wing root leading-edges. Two hard points under each wing, of which outer ones are wet for carriage of drop tanks. Centreline pylon is used only for drop tank.

Each inboard pylon is capable of carrying a PL-2, PL-2A, PL-5B or PL-7 missile. PL-9 is used on F-7PG, an R550 Magic; one 18-tube pod of Type 57-2 (57 mm) air-to-air and air-to-ground rockets; one Type 90-1 (90 mm) seven-tube pod of air-to-ground rockets; or a 50, 150, 250 or 500 kg bomb. Each outboard pylon can carry one of above rocket pods, a 50 or 150 kg bomb, or a 500 liter drop tank. For self-defence F-7PG uses Skyranger ECCM.

http://www.defence.pk/F-7PG_Skybolt/

I dont see any BVR missiles anywhere.......
 
My question is that if PAFs F-7s have BVR capability then why are they not equipped with BVR missiles? Whats the use of having a F-14 Tomcat capable of firing Phoenixes when it will only be used for firing Sidewinders?

Its been 5 years since the latest batch of F-7s were delivered from China. Why does the PAF not fit BVR missiles when they are already compatible?

Here is description of weapons carried by the F-7 from Pakistan Defence:

Armaments

Two 30 mm Type 30-1 belt-fed cannon, with 60rds/gun, in fairings under front fuselage just forward of wing root leading-edges. Two hard points under each wing, of which outer ones are wet for carriage of drop tanks. Centreline pylon is used only for drop tank.

Each inboard pylon is capable of carrying a PL-2, PL-2A, PL-5B or PL-7 missile. PL-9 is used on F-7PG, an R550 Magic; one 18-tube pod of Type 57-2 (57 mm) air-to-air and air-to-ground rockets; one Type 90-1 (90 mm) seven-tube pod of air-to-ground rockets; or a 50, 150, 250 or 500 kg bomb. Each outboard pylon can carry one of above rocket pods, a 50 or 150 kg bomb, or a 500 liter drop tank. For self-defence F-7PG uses Skyranger ECCM.

http://www.defence.pk/F-7PG_Skybolt/

I dont see any BVR missiles anywhere.......

I feel like I'm going around in circles here.....Since they have just purchased Sd-10 missiles THATS THE BVR CAPABILITY SORTED OUT ALREADY..........

For the last 5 years the relationship has thawed between the U.S. and Pak hence the the emphasis has shifted to other platforms. The need for F-7 BVR capability was undoubtably placed on the back burner till now.
 
Keysersoze,

Can you give me a link stating that F-7s in the PAF can fire SD-10 missiles or any other BVR missiles? I have given a few stating otherwise....
 
From Jane's Air Launched Weapons 2003

SD-10 (PL-12)

Type: Active-radar guided beyond-visual range air-to-air missile.

Development:

The SD-10 active-radar BVR air-to-air missile is now the highest priority air-to-air weapons programme for China's military industry, and has supplanted several previous developmental projects (such as the PL-10 and PL-11) in terms of effort and importance. When, and if, it enters service, it should provide the People's Liberation Army Air Force with a sophisticated, indigenous airborne weapon that will complement, to some degree the Russian-supplied R-27/R-77 missiles that equip the PLAAF's Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30 force.
The SD-10 (perhaps known also as the PL-12) is evolving under aegis of the Beijing-based China National Aero Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC), while work on various aspects of the programme is underway at a number of different technical centres around the country. The SD-10 is listed as part of CATIC's current 'Thunder-Lightning' family of air-to-air missiles, that includes the PL-5E, PL-9C and TY-90 systems (all developed by the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center). However, confusion surrounds the provenance, and even the designation, of the SD-10 programme. 'SD-10' is the export designation of a national programme that may, or may not be, the PL-12.
The PL-12 designation has also been associated with a notional air-to-air development of China's LY-60 surface-to-air missile, but the actual status of this development effort is unclear. The SD-10 on the other hand is a very real programme.
Prior to the emergence of the SD-10, China's active radar seeker AAM development programme was sometimes identified as the 'AMR-1'. During Air Show China 1996, held during November in Zhuhai, the China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute/No 607 Research Institute exhibited a newly-developed active radar seeker, the AMR-1. This seeker was, in turn, believed to have been applied to a new air-to-air missile design, derived from the LY-60 surface-to-air missile, and dubbed the 'PL-12'. This active radar missile, and the earlier semi-active radar homing PL-11, seemed to have a common design heritage with the Italian Aspide missile, supplied to China during the late 1980s. The status of the PL-11 and 'LY-60/PL-12' development programmes is unclear, but sources within CATIC say these earlier programmes have all been abandoned in favour of the SD-10.
The existence of the SD-10 programme was acknowledged by Chinese officials for the first time in early 2002 (the first pictures of the new missile appeared from Chinese sources during 2001). According to CATIC sources the missile has a range of 80 km. Earlier speculation around the AMR-1/LY-60 programme suggested that a ramjet engine was being developed for it, and such a powerplant would allow a missile to be effective at such long ranges. All available models and artist's impressions of the SD-10 released to date clearly show a rocket-powered missile with a conventional airframe configuration. However, unidentified models of a notional ramjet-powered air-to-air missile have been shown in China and so an enhanced propulsion solution may be under consideration, or even under development, for the SD-10. According to a CATIC engineer, speaking in February 2002, several SD-10 test firings have already been undertaken, and most of the SD-10's subsystems testing had been completed (although the missile was not yet ready for service).

Description

The SD-10 is outwardly very similar to the US-designed AIM-120 AMRAAM. The two share a comparable aerodynamic configuration, although with a length of 3.85m, a diameter of 20.3 cm and a weight of 180 kg the SD-10 is a little longer, wider and heavier than the AMRAAM. The SD-10 has four rear-mounted control fins that each have a very distinctive notch cut into their base. These fins are longer and more prominent than those of the AMRAAM and are cropped at an angle (rather than in line with the missile body). Four larger triangular fins are fixed to the mid-section of the missile. Internally, the leading edge of the centrebody fins is in line with the start of the missile's rocket motor. That motor is a variable-thrust sold rocket booster, that offers two levels of motive power for different sections of the flight envelope.
CATIC is known to be developing X-band and Ku-band active radar seekers, which may be intended for the SD-10. However the latest reports confirm that China has been co-operating closely with Russia's AGAT Research Institute, based in Moscow, and that AGAT is the source of the SD-10's essential active seeker. This joint development effort (perhaps with the name 'Project 129') has reportedly seen the supply of AGAT's 9B-1348 active-radar seeker (developed for the Vympel R-77, AA-12 'Adder') to China for integration with a Chinese-developed missile, the SD-10. Alternatively, technology from AGAT's 9B-1103M seeker family may be offered to China. Russia is also the source for the missile's inertial navigation system and datalink.
The SD-10 has four engagement modes. To take the greatest advantage of its maximum range it will use a mix of command guidance (via a datalink) plus its own inertial guidance before entering the active radar terminal guidance phase. The missile can also be launched to a pre-selected point, using its strap-down inertial system, before switching on its own seeker for a terminal search. Over short ranges the missile can be launched in a 'fire-and-forget' mode using its own active seeker from the outset. Finally, the SD-10 has a 'home-on-jam' mode that allows it to passively track and engage an emitting target, without ever using its own active radar or a radar from the launch aircraft. The seeker is connected to a digital flight control system that uses signal processing techniques to track a target. The missile's warhead is linked to a laser proximity fuse.
The SD-10 is claimed to have an operational ceiling of 20 km, with a maximum effective range of 70 km and a minimum engagement range of 1,000 m. The missile has a 40 g manoeuvring limit and, according to CATIC, it has been tested for a 100-hour captive 'live flight' life.

Operational status

The SD-10 is not yet believed to be in PLAAF service, but is in an advanced stage of development and may have been released for operational test and evaluation with the air force. According to CATIC, the SD-10 can be carried by a range of aircraft including the J-7 (F-7), J-8 (F- and MiG-series fighters, or any Western aircraft that have been fitted with the missile's PF95 launcher and pylon. The obvious radar limitations of these aircraft make it clear that they will probably never be fitted with the SD-10, at least in Chinese service. While trials firings have probably been conducted using Shenyang J-8 testbeds, it is believed that the SD-10/PL-12 programme is intended, initially, to equip China's fleet of Su-27 (J-11) 'Flankers' as part of a wider nationally-sourced capability enhancement for the PLAAF's 'Flanker' force.
The other potential applications for the SD-10/PL-12 in Chinese service are on the Chengdu J-10 next-generation combat aircraft now under development, perhaps the upgraded Shenyang J-8M 'Finback' and the CATIC FC-1/Super 7 lightweight multirole combat aircraft being developed jointly by China and Pakistan. During 2001 officials at Pakistan's National Development Complex confirmed that the NDC was conducting study/development work on a new active-radar missile programme, a possible reference to the SD-10. Certainly the most prominent 'public appearance' of the SD-10 to date has been on the full-size mock-up of the FC-1/Super 7. Pakistan has established a national production line for the Italian Galileo Avionica (formerly FIAR) Grifo 7 multimode fire-control radar at its Kamra Avionics and Radar Facility. A version of the Grifo radar (Grifo S7) is being developed for the FC-1/Super 7, and the Grifo is already fitted to Pakistan's Chengdu F-7PGs. In July 2002 Galileo Avionica confirmed that it would be offering the latest development of the Grifo radar, the Grifo 2000/16, as a candidate radar for the J-10 once its entered the production phase. Galileo Avionics describes the Grifo 2000/16 (originally designed as a radar for F-16 upgrades) as a modern, modular, multimode radar with enhanced air-to-air capabilities that is compatible with modern BVR missiles.


Specifications

Length: 3.85 m
Body diameter: 203 mm
Wing span: n/k
Launch weight: 180 kg
Warhead: HE fragmentation
Fuze: Active proximity fuse
Guidance: Inertial mid-course and /or datalink updates, with active radar terminal homing
Propulsion: Solid dual-thrust rocket motor
Range: 70 km (in a head on engagement)


Contractor

China National Aero Technology Import & Export Corp (CATIC), Beijing.


Thank you come again:coffee:
 
That still doesnt confirm, that Pakistan currently posses a BVR missile. Speculation.
 
That still doesnt confirm, that Pakistan currently posses a BVR missile. Speculation.

No, hence why an order for 300 SD-10's were placed with China, within 5 years we can expect to have them.

But Key's was answering what Fishbed put out, for getting confirmation that our Grifo's do have the capability to fire them, per-say Janes report and Italian Grifo company, the Grifo's that are in F-7 (J-7) are being made in Pakistan with ToT thus we can change the coding or Italy can, and the Grifo S-7 is also said by them to be compatible with SD-10.

And according to the report Key's put out, it also talks about Grifo 2000 which was intended for F-16s and could be used on J-10 and they also have the capability to fire SD-10.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if our JF-17 in the future could use AMRAAM considering with the Grifo's we were able to hook up our AIM-9's on the Chinese origin planes and Mirage planes. (Remember my opinion)

But I also have been hearing about getting South African missiles the ?-Dartar's as a weapons' package for BVR capability in our planes.
 
I asked about the aircraft carrying the missile and not missile itself....

The Article is from 2003 and says "The obvious radar limitations of these aircraft make it clear that they will probably never be fitted with the SD-10, at least in Chinese service".

I agree maybe for test purposes the SD-10 can be used in specially modifed J-7s but what I would like to know if J-7s currently serving in the PAF be equipped with SD-10 without modifications?

If so then why are they so many sources(like the ones I provided) say the contrary?


Also can you give the link please.....
 
Sniper,

What about 'currently' did you not understand. And yes I do agree that Grifo's have a limited BVR capability. Pakistan as of now dont have'em BVR missiles; while India does. If a war breaks out tommrow, does Pakistan have a BVR missile to fire. In Future Pakistan is getting the Aim-120C's. Which is better than anything currently India has.
 
Fishbed, WTF?

SD-10 has yet been ordered by the PAF. They are not equipped on F-7s but will be most likely in the future. Currently F-7s use the AIM series and the Darter series which gives them the capability they need. SD-10 will come as a later food for the IAF. ;)
 
Fishbed, WTF?

SD-10 has yet been ordered by the PAF. They are not equipped on F-7s but will be most likely in the future. Currently F-7s use the AIM series and the Darter series which gives them the capability they need. SD-10 will come as a later food for the IAF. ;)

LOL, dream on brother.....

Guess that should clear your doubts Fishbed. Pakistan Doesnt currently have a missile by which it utilize fully whatever limited capbility in BVR arena the Grifo might give. But 5 years down the line, it is a completly different picture,
 
From the various postings I have come to the following conclusions:
1. The PAF does not have any BVR missiles currently and none are fitted on any aircraft(including F-7).
2. The PAF has will acquire SD-10 from China in the near future and these can atleast theoretically with (or without?) modifications be fitted to the F-7, (although most sources indicate they are only equipped with short range IR missiles).

I think that will be the end of the discussion for me tonight...
 
I asked about the aircraft carrying the missile and not missile itself....

The Article is from 2003 and says "The obvious radar limitations of these aircraft make it clear that they will probably never be fitted with the SD-10, at least in Chinese service".

I agree maybe for test purposes the SD-10 can be used in specially modifed J-7s but what I would like to know if J-7s currently serving in the PAF be equipped with SD-10 without modifications?

If so then why are they so many sources(like the ones I provided) say the contrary?


Also can you give the link please.....
You asked why they had not equipped the F-7 with a missile and inferred that it showed lack of ability. The article contradicts that line of thought. The reason why there was no missile was that none was available. Missiles from Denel and another from france were being looked at. However as I have explained in some detail....It's need became moot when the AIM became available. And now that the JF-17 and J-10 will have sd-10's so dos it really matter?

"The obvious radar limitations of these aircraft make it clear that they will probably never be fitted with the SD-10, at least in Chinese service."

Well it's all moot anyway....
 
The obvious radar limitations of these aircraft make it clear that they will probably never be fitted with the SD-10, at least in Chinese service.

So you saying it would enter Pakistani Service though it did not enter the Chinese service.
 
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