Comparison of PAF F-7s and IAF MiG-21s

[Fishbed]

Keysersoze,
What are you trying to say? Your information does not describe AAMs fitted to an IAF Mig-21 'Bison' (also called MiG-21-93 or MiG-21bis UPG) anywhere, they are for earlier versions of Mig-21s. Only Mig-21 'Bisons' of the IAF are BVR capable, not all models.
On the contrary the links I gave specifically described PAF F-7PG which is the version you claim to be capable of theoretically using BVR AAMs.

Anyways if you had searched the Globalsecurity.org site properly(the one you last quoted in your post) you would have found the following link about IAF Mig-21s:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/vikram.htm

Which shows ugraded Mig-21 'Bisons' are BVR capable.

And if you had searched www.Mig-21.de properly(another one of your links) you would have found this link:
http://www.mig-21.de/english/technicaldataupgradesmig-21-93.htm#HAL

you said "Hmmmm anyone see any BVR missiles there? nope me either......"

I think you need to go through this website better, because I found these pictures:

Even if you use the search function in www.FAS.org (another one of your links) you will find in a dated article that India will upgrade 125 Mig-21s to Mig-21-93 standard in the near future.

Thank you come again

 

[mirage_lover]

Leaving aside your personal conclusions and going back to discussion.
We know, F-7 is an improved derivative of basic Mig21 and F-7 PG houses Grifo-7MG (search 55km, multi target track able) and as described above can be used to fire and control BVR missiles. So where do you see disadvantage.


We all know PAF posses hundreds of SD10 and only mirrage initially were not BVR able, thats why they under went ROSE upgrade. Since mirrage became the new share holder of existing SD10 stocks, so PAF ordered more.
FYI, Now almost all PAF fleet is BVR able.
So don't jump to conclusions very fast.

My mistake...could you also clarify wether our current F16 fleet is BVR capable or not? if not are there plans to make the current F16 fleet BVRed?

cheers

 

[JK!]

My mistake...could you also clarify wether our current F16 fleet is BVR capable or not? if not are there plans to make the current F16 fleet BVRed?

cheers

Here is the grand shopping list:

April 17, 2006: Pakistan's cabinet gave approval to the country's air force to begin negotiations for the purchase of F-16 and J-10 fighter aircrafts from the US and China. Both America and China has already offered these planes to Pakistan. PAF will purchase 98 hi-tech aircraft besides missiles and other equipment to improve the capabilities of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Mixed package of hi-tech aircraft and equipment is being purchased from USA and China are as under: J-10 aircraft (36), F-16 A/B, ex-Pakistan (26), F-16 C/D (18 with an option for 18 more), SD-10 BVR missiles (300), BVR, 500 (American) targeting pods 18 and joint direct attack munitions (500).

Now I wonder what those 500 US BVR missiles could be? (HINT AIM 120s)

 

[ahussains]

any one tells me how many planes Mig 21 and F7's (any versions) PAF and IAF losts in peace time and during routine traning flights it easily clear the maintanence and technical abilties of these fighters

 

[BATMAN]

any one tells me how many planes Mig 21 and F7's (any versions) PAF and IAF losts in peace time and during routine traning flights it easily clear the maintanence and technical abilties of these fighters

Below are the extracts of an old article. You may estimate the losses of mig21 in IAF.

The DMIC findings reveals that the IAF is continuously loosing it's Aircraft as well as Pilots and aeronautical engineers. During the past twenty years i.e. from 1980 to 2002, the IAF lost some 441 fighter aircraft, 31 transport aircraft, 98 Helicopters and some72 basic training aircraft. Just during the decade of the 90, according to an official report, submitted in the Indian Parliament, the IAF lost at least 80 of it's top class pilots and over 185 aircraft, with an estimated financial loss of Rs 6,800 crore. And to be more precise, 28 out of these 80 pilots went down just during the year 1999.....
However, much of the IAF problems were attributed to the out-fashioned and obsolete MiG-21, accounting for 62 per cent of the overall crashes. This aircraft was commissioned in the Indian Air Force some 40 years back and was considered as a 'darling machine' long ago. But now it is the most disliked fighter aircraft among the pilots and engineers of the IAF due to variety of complications, this aging aircraft faces. There is a complete lack of confidence in the ability of these MiG-21s to keep airborne without a glitch. The losses of the IAF due to this machine can be gauged from the data which indicates that the IAF loses one MiG fighter every 2500 flight hours.

 

[Fishbed]

any one tells me how many planes Mig 21 and F7's (any versions) PAF and IAF losts in peace time and during routine traning flights it easily clear the maintanence and technical abilties of these fighters

I think you are being a little harsh here describing the Mig-21. Dont forget it wasnt designed today......it was designed more than 50 years ago. For that period of time the aircraft was excellent in maintenance.

Here is a video of the evaluation of a captured Mig-21 by the USAF during the Cold War.

[YOUTUBE]

The narrator says the USAF found "the reliability and maintainability of this aircraft is outstanding" and "it represent an excellent engineering achievement"
and that during the course of 100 test flights hardly any maintenance was required.

If the aircraft is not properly maintained and the airframe is 20-30 years old accidents are bound to occur.

 

[pg7]

My Dear FishBed, u can find on many sites that currently PAF is using BVRs on its mirage fleet and f-16. However, their presence cant be declared for reasons which need not to be mentioned. Regarding, eccm and other abilities, as paf uses european stuff in blend with chinese plateforms thus getting good results. martin baker seats are one good example. Moreover, surviveability rate of paf f-7 is even better than our own mirages reason being that in major overhauls, paf do signficantly improve different wiring and piping qualities making failures less likely. Moreover, in case of india failures are not purely technical but pilots mistakes also play a major part. It has many reason like absence of good jet trainer in iaf for longtime, inability of iaf to induct most talented youth in iaf unlike paf (pilotship is not as lucrative in iaf as in paf considering they also get a chance to serve in uae getting huge chunks of money, same luxury is not availble to indian pilots) and iaf more stringent montary constraints etc. Currently, iaf bvrs are also limited in numbers and will not be used along with mig-21 as iaf would not like to waste missiles in fighters which will fall without contribution from adversary as happened in kargil as well. Use of wide variety of modern stuff has created problems for iaf from maintenance and logistics point of view. Moreover, iaf has not made good decision regarding its purchases of russian stuff when it needed maturity. Mig-27 and 29 are good examples. In contrast, paf even in desperate situations keeps on waiting till chinese really mature their stuff with western mix-up. Hope to continue positively.

 

[Adux]

Pg7

1. There is no need to Hide BVR technology or missiles, It is not some Nuclear weapon.
2. PAF F7 are better cuz they are bought recently, While Mirage's were bought in the 70's.
3. MiG-21, falling out of the sky,lol..I will take your flame bait.. please Tell PAF to attack India.
4. Absence of good jet trainer is problem, but they are sent to Uk and US to train. Please check your facts.
5.IAF has the best BVR in the region, Even better than China, and that is a fact. You want me to compare N001 to N011. i am all ready for that.
6.You got slaughtered, and your F-16's couldnt even engage us. You tried a Siachen,but alsas.We lost a MiG-27, 21 and a helicopter, To ground fire. Not PAF. Go Job PA.
7.IAF pilots are dedicated as any, please do engage India and Find out. We have got more than enough International apperciation for our pilots.
8. MiG-29 is a good aircraft with a very bad maintance record. IAF simply love the MiG-27, They hate the MiG-23 series. Which is already retired
9. PAF never had the money to buy anything new, Thank Musharraf though it is not much different now.
10. All those Chinese stuff are Russian. China's still hasnt shown much innovativeness in their Weapon's design. just go post something in militaryphotos.net, they will eat you alive.

 

[pg7]

Adux, u need to cool down abit and talk sense. Try to to answer which has been asked. Regarding ur answer, pl listen
nukes are not the only thing to be classified
It is a fact and even iaf pilot do dislike mig-21
Even uk and US have not been able to make them best. Check your pilots rating before getting excited
Indian bvr quality was never questioned but only numbers were discussed. Mind it iaf bvrs are not best take australian af into account
why to engage iaf at its own side of border and a force whose front line fighters can be brought by mere ground guns.
Dedication was not questioned.point was that best indian stuff does not make itself availalble for iaf
Why are u so confused pl stick to what is being discussed.iaf always had early russian versions while real improvements came in later version. this happens to every manufacturer and russia is no exception.
Chinese are moving a hell farward and putting in their indigenous designs now. However they are still behind russia but are way ahead india.
Do stick to what is being discussed and do not mix a hell all of things.

 

[Adux]

PG7,

you have no clue what you are talking about and you have no true facts than kids' forum hyperbole's. Therefore I take my leave.

Adu

 

[Bull]

It is a fact and even iaf pilot do dislike mig-21

You mean they dislike the Mig-21 now or they disliked it from the begining. Why do you say that? have you read anything abt this ? If yes post it here.

Even uk and US have not been able to make them best. Check your pilots rating before getting excited.

Well i dont have any pilots ratings with me, other than the comments made by foriegn pilots who came ot India for jt excercises. And they still continue to come ot India itself is testimny to the fact that we have skilled pilots.

And also post the pilots ranking that you have.

Indian bvr quality was never questioned but only numbers were discussed. Mind it iaf bvrs are not best take australian af into account.

Arnt you contradicting to an extend here. in the first line you admit abt quality and then you doubt it in the second line.

why to engage iaf at its own side of border and a force whose front line fighters can be brought by mere ground guns.

Please look at mission objectives. The jets were bought down whle they were flying under tremendous restrictions. Pakistan is set to buy a advanced SAM that can take on India jets as they still lack them.

Dedication was not questioned.point was that best indian stuff does not make itself availalble for iaf.

Well money is all that matters, as per you. There are contradictions plenty. Training and education makes the average do their job effectively. Isnt it.

Chinese are moving a hell farward and putting in their indigenous designs now. However they are still behind russia but are way ahead india.

China came out with JF-17, which everybody is speaking of as it is completed. But in reality its still far away from induction.

Do stick to what is being discussed and do not mix a hell all of things.

You are saying a whole lot of things, so well its already mixed up.

 

[EagleEyes]

J-7 with SD-10. Should give you the sign.

 

[Neo]

Webby, is that a PAF J-7PG?
Can't see any markings, its all grey. :s

 

[EagleEyes]

No, it is chinese.

With that given i think it is obvious that F-7s do have SD-10 capability in PAF.