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Comparison of IN and PN

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happybirthdaytoyou

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Hi guys i would like to invite every serious member to discuss the comparison between the above mentioned Navies

Note

No Patriotism

No. Future Project


Regards



Happybirthdaytoyou
 
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India has a lot more water to cover, that's all I know :p.
 
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Indian Navy is a mere fledging Navy.

Long way to go.
 
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Interesting how the west relies on us in the east for their weapons sales. We have to constantly buy competing jets, competing naval fleet. If we could engage in meaningful peace dialogue without western interference, think how much both countries could benefit. Joint defense against any western interference investing in self sufficiency and spending the billions on establishing education and ensuring that people do not go to bed hungry at night.
 
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The way the world economy is controlled has to be understood to realise that it will be very difficult to break the stranglehold that is operative in managing gthe global economic sitaution.

I wonder if anyone has any detailed report on the Brentwood Conference. I believe that is what changed the world economy. I have not seen the report, but my economist friends have mentioned something on that line.

This much I can say for sure that anyone who controls Oil (does not mean produce) can manipulate (prices, production, distribution etc) the market and industries and hence the economy.

It would be needless to state that OPEC though controlled can be made to bend to suit the requirement.

Even one of the aims of the Iraq War was aimed to seize the better quality (sweet) oil (less production cost) and the world's second largest oilfields so as to break the monopoly of the OPEC and then be in a better postition to control world oil.
 
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1. Even one of the aims of the Iraq War was aimed to seize the better quality (sweet) oil (less production cost) and the world's second largest oilfields so as to break the monopoly of the OPEC and then be in a better postition to control world oil.

Firstly U.S. would have invaded Iraq and it would have cost 20B, the situation would have been peaceful, because the entire equipment of Iraq was junked, U.S. would sell $5 B in arms a year. It would get a few bases to keep Iran and Syria scared. The entire country would have been rebuilt with Iraq's borrowing money to invest in their infrastructure and all of the contracts would have been won by U.S. firms at inflated prices. The U.S. would also gain a lot from normal trade because new Iraqi admin would have given free trade access to U.S. firms.

Also because the removal of sanction and improvemnt of infrastructure, Iraqi oil exports would have shot through the roof thus lowering the price of Oil slightly and benefiting U.S. consumers.

So in total, the benefit from having bases, recontructing with U.S., incrreasing in preferntial trade and slightly lower Oil price made the invasion a "profitable" venture. Unfortuantely for the White house, they didnt count on so much resistance from the population.
 
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Dear Friends

As far as MPA is concerned Pakistan is far advanced then Indian Navy means 10 upgraded P-3Cs is huge number as far as Pakistani Maritime is concrened

Regards


Happybirthdaytoyou
 
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Respected Friends,

The impact of induction of the P3C Orion Aircraft on the Indian Navy’s Preparedness: An Assessment

by Commodore RS Vasan IN (Retd)

1. A lot of debate is taking place in the naval circles and amongst maritime analysts to understand the full impact of the induction of the P3C Orion in the sub continent. The deal worth over 1.3 billion US dollars has many more military sophisticated equipment. What however interests the maritime analysts is the inclusion of a major item in the form of eight Orion long range maritime aircraft which can be used for surveillance, Anti Sub marine warfare and Anti Surface warfare. Why is this raising the heckles in the Arabian Sea? To understand this and more there would be a need to look at the aircraft itself and then analyse the pattern of Naval Operations in the Arabian Sea.

Figure 1- P3C Orion




2. A look at the P3C Orion. While the airframe and the design of the aircraft is quite old (almost four decades old), what is notable is the regular updates with which the aircraft has been rendered equal to the present day tasks. The US Navy itself has plans to use the aircraft for the next 15 years and expects to support the fleet elsewhere for another two decades plus. A total of over 480 Aircraft have been built to date since the first built some forty years ago.

3. The Pak Navy is expected to be the recipient of the updated P3C Orion aircraft with a capability that will add a great deal in terms of not just surveillance in the Indian Ocean but also in its ability to neutralize both the Indian Submarines deployed on offensive patrols along enemy coasts and the Surface Combatants who would be out there to exercise Sea Control. Both these missions are integral to most of the Navies of the world who are vested with responsibilities in the ocean areas of interest.

The Long Range Maritime Reconnaissance and Anti Submarine Warfare (LRMRASW) aircraft of the world are capable of undertaking multiple missions in wide areas of interests. With the addition of Air to Surface Missiles, the task of Anti Surface Warfare has now become integral to that of Anti Submarine operations.

4. The older Atlantique aircraft which the Pakistan Navy used in the past (Remember the one that was shot down close to our borders) also was equipped for both Anti Sub and Anti Surface Warfare operations. The P3C Orion is no different and is so designed to take on both these tasks. The effectiveness or otherwise of an aircraft like the P3C is largely dependent on the weapon +equipment mix as well as the crew efficiency to handle such technology and missions. The P3C has an array of equipment to enable it to patrol large areas at fairly high speeds. The details of the equipment are provided on open sites by the manufacturers namely Lockheed Martin. This is appended below:-

a) The IR Maverick Missile is an infrared-guided, rocket-propelled, air-to-ground missile for use against targets requiring considerable warhead penetration prior to detonation. The missile is capable of two pre-flight selectable modes of target tracking. The armor or land track mode is optimized for tracking land-based targets such as tanks or fortified emplacements. The ship track mode is optimized for tracking seaborne targets. The missile is capable of launch-and-leave operation. After launch, automatic missile guidance is provided by an imaging infrared energy sensing and homing device.

b) The AN/AAS-36A Infrared Detecting Set [IRDS] provides passive imaging of infrared wavelength radiation to visible light emanating from the terrain along the aircraft flight path for stand-off detection, tracking, and classification capability. The IRDS update will primarily consist of an improved A-focal lens.

c) The AN/AVX-1 Electro-Optical Sensor System [EOSS] is an airborne stabilized electro-optical system that provides video for surveillance and reconnaissance missions. The AN/AVX-1 EOSS has the capability to detect and monitor objects during the day from exceptionally clear to medium hazes, dawn and dusk, and during the night from a full moon to starlight illumination.

d) The AN/APS-137B (V) 5 Radar is capable of multimode operation to provide periscope and small target detection, navigation, weather avoidance, long range surface search and Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and ISAR imaging modes. SAR provides detection, identification, and classification capability of stationary targets. ISAR provides detection, classification, and tracking capability against surface and surfaced submarine targets. The AN/APS-137B (V) 5 ISAR provides range, bearing, and positional data on all selected targets, and provides medium or high resolution images for display and recording.

e) The EP-2060 Pulse Analyzer works in conjunction with the AN/ALR-66C (V) 3 to detect, direction find, quantify, process, and display electromagnetic signals emitted by land, ship, and airborne radar systems.

f) Three Color High Resolution Display [CHRD] general purpose, dual channel, closed circuit units provide the operator with improved Operator-Machine-Interface and 1024 X 1280 pixel landscape orientation, improved response time to operator commands, and an increase of 300 percent in the video refresh rate to minimize display flicker. Five types of data may be displayed on the CHRD: cursors, cues, tableau, alerts, and raw video.

g) The Pilot Color High Resolution Display [PCHRD] provides the ability to display complex tactical and sensor information to the pilot station.

h) The Over-the-Horizon Airborne Sensor Information System [OASIS] III data is received and prepared for transmission via the OASIS III Tactical Data Processor (TDP). OASIS III processes and correlates all data provided via MATT and Mini-DAMA. The OASIS III TDP provides an Officer in Tactical Command Information Exchange System (OTCIXS) message link, coupled with GPS-aided targeting using the AN/APS-137B(V)5 Radar.

j) The OZ-72(V) Multi-Mission Advanced Tactical Terminal [MATT] system will provide Tactical Receive Equipment (TRE) capability to receive and decrypt three simultaneous channels of Tactical Data Information Exchange Subsystem (TADIXS-B), Tactical Related Applications (TRAP), and Tactical Information Broadcast Service (TIBS) information. The system will route the received broadcast data to the OASIS III for further processing.

k) The AN/USC-42(V) 3 Miniaturized Demand Assigned Multiple Access [Mini-DAMA] will provide for secure voice communications. Mini-DAMA provides for the transmission, reception, and decryption of OTCIXS data and the subsequent routing of that data to the OASIS III TDP.

l) The AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning System [MWS] is a passive electro-optical system designed to detect surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles. Upon detection of an incoming missile, the MWS will report the impending threat to the Countermeasures Dispensing System (CMDS).

m) The AN/ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispensing System [CMDS] will be used for dispensing flares, chaff, non-programmable expendable jammers, and programmable jammers.

n) The AN/ALR-66 C (V) 3 Electronic Support Measures Set provides all the same features as an AN/ALR-66 B (V) 3 ESM Set. However, the ALR-66 C (V) 3 Set incorporates the AS-105 spinning DF antenna and the Operational Flight Program is modified to accommodate this configuration difference. Also included is the EP-2060 Pulse Analyzer, an upgrade to the ULQ-16.

p) The Harpoon Missile with advanced features and an expected stand off range in excess of 100 kms.

5. While the details of equipment are applicable to an upgrade programme in the US, the specific equipment cleared for sale to PN is not yet clear. But it can be safely assumed that most of the above equipment and others that are not listed would indeed find its space in an Orion with the crescent and the star. The aircraft has been classified as a counter terrorism aircraft; some description indeed for an LRMRASWand ASUW aircraft! This description has surprised military analysts the world over.

6. Not withstanding the reasons for the sale of this high technology air asset, the fact of the matter is that the P3C Orion is here to stay and would be constantly factored in the tactical and strategic scenarios in the India Ocean.

7. The entire pattern of operations can be simply explained as follows:

>The aircraft based on intelligence is launched to a specific area. The P3C would transit at high speed using all the four engines to reach the area. On reaching the area it could shut down two of its engines to extend it’s loiter time by operating at Patrol speeds. The Avionics are operated as dictated by the tactical situation. Thus the aircraft could be operating the Radar selectively to prevent enemy Electronic Support Measures (ESM) equipment from detecting and tracking the source of transmission. Simultaneously, the aircraft would be using its own ESM equipment to detect and classify the presence of any hostile transmissions.

> The aircraft would methodically build a surface picture in the target area and also pass on the information in real time to the ground monitoring stations. With friendly inputs from Satellites it would be quite easy to correlate plots. The updated version is designed to be capable of net centric warfare .It is child’s play today to have such real time information including transfer of either synthetic or raw pictorial plots to the controlling stations. Certain missions would demand independent prosecution by the Aircraft itself where as certain other missions may demand a coordinated action by other Strike aircraft and Submarines.

>The aircraft has its own stand off Harpoon missile with a range in excess of 100 kms. So the aircraft would be able to release the missile on the target keeping well outside the SAM ranges. However, the aircraft could be vulnerable to integral (Carrier borne) aircraft depending on the scenario existing. Issues related to the Carrier operations are very frequently debated in the Pak online forums. The discussions on the Carrier Operations could form the subject of another analysis.

>As far as the Anti Sub marine operations are concerned, the range of Passive, Active Directional sonobuoys and the Magnetic detector that the aircraft carries provides it the wherewithal to keep probable areas of enemy Submarine deployment under active surveillance. The threat to the P3C would indeed be minimized as it would be operating close to its own shore and would be well with in its shore based fighter cover. On detection and localization, the aircraft has array of weapons including torpedoes and depth charges which could be released with great accuracy enabled by onboard sonic processors and mission computer systems.

The most important asset of the P3C Orion, in my opinion is the Inverted Synthetic.

Aperture Radar (ISAR) which makes it possible for the crew to identify the targets at well over missile release ranges. This does complicate the matters for the Surface Action Group (SAG) or a Carrier Battle Group (CBG) manoeuvring in the areas where Sea Control is desired.
>Similarly, the use of onboard chaffs and jammers would provide some sort of protection from missile (SAMs and AAMs).

In the light of above, let us see how the task of the IN is complicated in the Arabian

Sea and what counters are available to IN in the present context. The element of surprise is something that would be compromised as the P3C aircraft has the means to identify the surface targets at extended ranges. It would enable the planners in Pakistan to develop a surface picture that forewarns them of the possibilities related to a time frame. Thus the most essential aspect of ‘time and space’ in relation to surface dispositions would be known for mounting counter operations. This doubtlessly would affect the classical missions of Sea Control and Blockade.
It is not as if the entire advantage in the Arabian Sea is nullified in one stroke with the introduction of the Orion aircraft; after all, the IN has lived with the presence of the Atlantique aircraft which similarly threatened the surface forces and submarines in the past. The equation was also less favourable to the Indian Navy then with the absence of any credible air early warning with IN till just a couple of years ago.

The introduction of the KA 31Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Helicopters has provided that essential component in IN Fleet operations. With a claimed detection capability of over 100 to 150 kms, tracking ability of more than 40 tracks and the ability to operate from a variety of decks, this platform would provide many options for uninterrupted fleet operations. In the absence of any form of credible AEW, the fleet was mostly at a disadvantage pitted even against the older Atlantique .The Atlantique seemed to get in on many occasions without warning due to the limitations of Surface Radars. The surface radars in any case were detected by the airborne passive sensors well beyond their own detection ranges. This in the past had severely affected the effectiveness of deck launched interception by the Sea Harriers. The limited reaction time provided was inadequate to neutralize the threat before the snooper reached the missile release range.

Figure 2- Kamov 31 Helicopter



The Sea Harriers would now be in a better position to be directed to the source of threat by the AEW Helicopter well before it reaches the weapon release mark. How would the IN cope with coordinated saturation attacks from many directions (for example by dozens of Mirages, Three to four P3C Orion’s and anything else that could be thrown in to the arena) would be a matter of clever tactics and battle of wits. The PN would like to see that the operation resembles the “peeling of the onion”, meaning that they would concentrate on taking out the pickets engaged in the outer periphery to protect the Carrier or any other Surface vessel till they reach the Carrier. The closer co operation between the IAF and the IN to optimize the reach of the Sukhoi aircraft and Tankers to take out the Orion in the initial stages would enable subsequent classical naval operation.

In conclusion, P3C Orion will definitely change the strategic and tactical dimensions of naval warfare in the Arabian Sea. The induction of high technology sensors and precision weapons endangers IN operations. The Navy doubtlessly would be busy in evaluating the changed parameters caused by this induction for developing counters to see that it continues to enjoy the maritime supremacy in the Arabian Sea.

(The author was the Regional Commander of the Coast Guard Region East. He earlier commanded two naval air stations and also the premier Long Range MRASW squadron of the Indian Navy. His email address is vasadri@yahoo.com


Regards

happybirthdaytoyou
 
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Sigatoka,

You must read the Defence Policy Guidelines initiated by Cheney, when he was the Secretary of Defence. Read it with the National Energy Policy of the US. Things will fall in its correct perspective.

Happybirthdaytoyou,

Do give the link/ source of your article.

Thanks.
 
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not a such good comparison when u have an offensive navy against a defensive navy.....
unless u manage to add chinese navy in there with pakistani navy vs. indian navy.......
 
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PLAN gonna fight against IN to help PN? Never happened before.
 
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Tough task ahead for new Navy chief

Vice-Admiral Mehta’s Top Priority: To Make Navy A Stabilising Force In Indian Ocean Region
Rajat Pandit | TNN



New Delhi: When vice-admiral Sureesh Mehta takes over as the new Navy chief on November 1, his topmost priority would be to ‘‘consolidate’’ his force’s rapidly-transforming role from being just ‘‘a silent service’’ to a potent maritime power acting as ‘‘a stabilising force’’ in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).
Though reported much earlier by TOI, the government on Friday formally announced that Mehta, at present chief of the Visakhapatnam-based Eastern Naval Command, would take over from admiral Arun Prakash when he retires on October 31.
Mehta would take over at a time when the Navy, though much smaller than Army and IAF, has emerged as the most ‘‘visible’’ symbol of India’s growing military might in recent years. The role played by it as a diplomatic instrument to further the country’s geostrategic objectives came through when it escorted American ships through Malacca Straits in 2002, rapidly deployed warships to help neighbouring countries during the killer tsunami in 2004, or even evacuated Indian nationals from wartorn Lebanon recently.
Though the foundation for this was laid by admirals Madhvendra Singh and Arun Prakash, Mehta will have to make it a major thrust area. Mehta, who will serve till August 2009, will of course have to ensure forcelevels do not fall below the present 130 warships and 16 submarines.
Experts say India’s resurgence as an economic power depends to a large extent on peace being maintained in IOR. ‘‘Apart from optimum utilisation of available warships and networking of weapon and sensor capabilities, he will have to convince the government for long-term committed budgetary support,’’ said one.
While the Rs 18,798-crore project to build six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks between 2012 and 2017 has now kicked off, Navy also has as many as 33 warships ‘‘under production or order’’ from indigenous or foreign shipyards. These include three more Talwar-class ‘‘stealth’’ frigates, the indigenous air defence ship and the refurbished Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier.
Not only will Mehta have to ensure all these projects progress smoothly, he will also have to get the government’s firm support for another 30 warships after these 33. This is necessary since over 70 existing warships will have to be gradually replaced in the coming 10-15 years.
Another thrust area would have to be the induction of nuclear submarines and submarine-launched ballistic missile capability, which are needed for effective and secure ‘‘second-strike capabilities’’.
As someone from the naval aviation wing, Mehta should also take a hard look at Navy’s rather thin fleet of Long-Range Maritime Patrol (LRMP) aircraft despite India having a 7,516-km coastline, 1,197 islands and a 2.01 million sq km exclusive economic zone. At present, Navy has only three IL-38s, recently upgraded with the multi-functional ‘‘Sea Dragon mission suite’’, and eight aging Tupolev-142Ms, apart from a small fleet of Dorniers and Israeli UAVs for medium-level snooping missions.
Though the acquisition process for eight LRMP aircraft has been now initiated, the process needs to be fasttracked so that deliveries can commence before this decade ends. Pakistan, of course, is on course to induct P-3C Orions from the US.
 
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Dear Friends

As far as MPA is concerned Pakistan is far advanced then Indian Navy means 10 upgraded P-3Cs is huge number as far as Pakistani Maritime is concrened

Regards

Happybirthdaytoyou

Hi guys i would like to invite every serious member to discuss the comparison between the above mentioned Navies

Note

No Patriotism

No. Future Project

Regards

Happybirthdaytoyou

Yu said no future projects!!!:read:
 
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The Chinese navy is a great excuse for indian navy chiefs to demand budget increases. However i think India's miltiary structure is unbalanced with too little funds allocated to the Navy compared to what the army gets.
 
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