Comparing India and Pakistan 2010

[desiman]

Everybody relax and cool down, Lets not add fuel to the fire.

 

[RiazHaq]

Show me one area where I have attacked you. I have attacked your methods of selective pruning of articles writtent by others but have never abused you or used derogatory terms. Its you who forst tried to distort the articles and then when caught are not diverting attention by whining about INdian mob mentality..



Havent attacked you so far... Only your falsified and distorted commentary...

I have distorted nothing. On the contrary, you have spun the article and video I posted to deliberately misinterpret its contents which in fact challenge media hype of " India a superpower and Pakistan a failed state". And you are ignoring that key part and clutching for the straws to bolster your baseless arguments.

In fact, here' how the youtube description of the video reads:

While the media has been only too eager to praise India as an emerging superpower, neighbouring Pakistan has been portrayed as a failed state - and the only US ally bombed regularly by Washington. This contrast, Dalrymple said, was a huge exaggeration: India had its own big problems with Naxalite and Maoist insurgents, and Pakistan had an emerging urban middle class, better infrastructure and a proliferation of TV and radio channels.

Your cohorts here are resorting to the sharing the same media that are denounced in Dalrymple's video....they are mindless part of the mob you are leading here.

You either don't comprehend it, or you are being deliberately disingenuous.

 

[Cisco-GUY]

Since when does Shiny buildings and empty motorway became indicator of economic progress. Here is Zimbabwe, Number 2 in failed state list index

BTW, those sulms in Mumbai are estimated at INR 700 crores!!!

 

[desiman]

I have distorted nothing. On the contrary, you have spun the article and video I posted to deliberately misinterpret its contents which in fact challenge media hype of " India a superpower and Pakistan a failed state". And you are ignoring that key part and clutching for the straws to bolster your baseless arguments.

In fact, here' how the youtube description of the video reads:

While the media has been only too eager to praise India as an emerging superpower, neighbouring Pakistan has been portrayed as a failed state - and the only US ally bombed regularly by Washington. This contrast, Dalrymple said, was a huge exaggeration: India had its own big problems with Naxalite and Maoist insurgents, and Pakistan had an emerging urban middle class, better infrastructure and a proliferation of TV and radio channels.

Your cohorts here are resorting to the sharing the same media that are denounced in Dalrymple's video....they are mindless part of the mob you are leading here.

You either don't comprehend it, or you are being deliberately disingenuous.

Again the crying continues, not worth replying to. I have replied in detail in previous post, read them first.

 

[indian_musing]

Here is unedited youtube.

 

[indian_musing]

Foreign Policy ranks Pakistan as the 10th Most Failed State | Teeth Maestro

Nothing to be proud off but in a survey conducted by Foreign Policy Magazine where they evaluated 177 countries across the world Pakistan was ranked as the 10th most failed state where Somalia was ranked as the most failed state followed by Zimbabwe, Sudan, Chad, Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Central African Republic, Guniea and then Pakistan

The used 12 indicators ranking countries on a scale of 1-10 [10 being the most affected] Pakistan’s total aggregated score is 104.1 [Data Sheet available in PDF]

1. Demographic Pressures – 8.3
2. Refugees/IDPs – 8.6
3. Group Grievance 9.6
4. Human Flight 8.3
5. Uneven Development – 8.8
6. Economic Decline – 6.4
7. Delegitimization of the State – 9.1
8. Public Services – 7.5
9. Human Rights – 8.9
10. Security Apparatus – 9.5
11. Factionalized Elites – 9.6
12. External Intervention – 9.5

These numbers may not signify much but its based on a methodology to provide a snapshots of state vulnerability or risk of violence for one time period each year

The more important issue is to understand the term State Failure as defined by the study undertakers

A state that is failing has several attributes. One of the most common is the loss of physical control of its territory or a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Other attributes of state failure include the erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions, an inability to provide reasonable public services, and the inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community. The 12 indicators cover a wide range of elements of the risk of state failure, such as extensive corruption and criminal behavior, inability to collect taxes or otherwise draw on citizen support, large-scale involuntary dislocation of the population, sharp economic decline, group-based inequality, institutionalized persecution or discrimination, severe demographic pressures, brain drain, and environmental decay. States can fail at varying rates through explosion, implosion, erosion, or invasion over different time periods

As far as Pakistan goes in 2008 was ranked at 9 with a total of 103 points, so if there is any solace we inched a little more away from being an outright contender for the title of a failed state, but it does seem that we have the hallmarks of going into some severe crisis as the political ramblings combined with the worsening terrorism situation coupled with a deteriorating IDP crisis, we are in some severe issues. I can only hope and pray that this study can help jolt our irresponsible leaders into pulling our country out of this spiraling disaster, but I dread, that hope alone wont cut it …….

 

[SMC]

You're making yourself look stupid now. You do realize that only small percent of Pakistan's land is not government controlled, maybe similar to the land controlled by maoists in india?

Also, I don't see how most of those factors can be used to determine how failed a state is.

And I have talked about the reliability of this report. You ignored that, didn't you?

You're just trolling, aren't you?

 

[sensenreason]

Unlike your wild and baseless commentary, everything I have said here is backed by tons of data from credible sources, including reliable Indian sources. I have quoted Manmohan Singh, Syeda Hameed, Bharat Verma and others through out this thread.

It's you who has tried to personalize this thread by making false accusations against me personally, while enlisting your buddies to add to your noise to distract attention from the core and factual information I have presented. You are responsible for this thread degenerating with all of the nonsense you have spewed while I have tried to keep it focused on issues.

I know you have not explicitly said "India is a superpower and Pakistan a failed state", the undercurrent of your commentary and that of your buddies implies exactly that. Your outright rejection of the existence of this theme in Dalrymple's video reinforces the perception that you are out to show Pakistan as a failed state, and India a superpower.

My thread about India as failed state is based on factual information about Indian state's inability to provide the very basic necessities such as food and security to its people, and its loss of control of 25%-40% of its territory by various estimates. The rising death toll in the Maoists held areas, and the deployment of 100,000 troops to quell the Maoists insurgency are proof of the lack of security for hundreds of millions of people in India. I invite you to read it again.

Haq's Musings: Are India and Pakistan Failed States?

I have backed my assertions with data from Indian sources such as Syeda Hameed of the planning commission, and Indian analyst Bharat Verma. And I have given you links to the sources.

Please refrain from further personal attacks as they neither contribute to healthy debate, nor do they reflect well on you and the country you love.

Please learn to disagree without being disagreeable!

Please refrain from using your 'perception' of what someone is saying. Dont read between the lines, unless you mean many other things in the above response than is written.

You have mentioned Food and security. Food yes there are certain issues. Pakistan is not significantly different for better or worse than India in this regard.

Security problems due to terror attacks perpetrated by percieved Pakistani state actors on Indians and illegal support to insurgency in North East, Kashmir and now Afghanistan is causing security issues to India..Yes. Please stop it.Maosists are a problem that will be solved in 2-3 years as Home Minister mentioned yesterday. But its a concern.

If you cannot control these factions in Pakistan then you have failed. Pakistan then becomes a failed state...so you and your buddies need to go to work on eradicating these guys instead of spending time on this blog; as a responsible state onus lies on Pakistan to stop them and not India.

At the same time, failed state or power is transitory and changes over time. Failure today is success tomorrow. What determines where you stand today is what you did in the past.

Pakistan doesnt control 50% plus of its territory by the same token, that India doesnmt control 25% of its land.

I repeat India is 'surely not' a superpower today..its 100% true. US is the sole superpower with China way behind.

Pakistan being a failed state is subjective....as far as Im concerned it doesnt matter how you term a state only its actions matter..eg 26/11.

 

[SMC]

The only land not government controlled in pockets in FATA and pockets in Balochistan. It's nowhere near 50%. Less than 5%, I imagine, and probably less than 1% of the population live on that land. Economically that land for the most part is useless.

 

[indian_musing]

You're making yourself look stupid now. You do realize that only small percent of Pakistan's land is not government controlled, maybe similar to the land controlled by maoists in india?

Also, I don't see how most of those factors can be used to determine how failed a state is.

And I have talked about the reliability of this report. You ignored that, didn't you?

You're just trolling, aren't you?

I am just providing unedited and unadulterated data from different sources. Please let me know whom you trust and which source is reliable. I will research and find data.

BTW Did you see what john maccain said??

 

[SMC]

He said Pakistan WAS a failed state. Where or not that's true is arguable, but it's irrelevant beacuse he is saying it WAS.

Secondly, like I mentioned, for the most part the world's media and these kinds of reports cannot be trusted. If you study the media from a political point of view, you'll find out what happens behind the scenes and how heavily controlled the media is. So for the most part I avoid using the media as my source of reliable information. I do listen to it, but keeps other things in mind when listening to them.

So if they report something, I always keep in mind it's high likely they are not reporting the full story or presenting the story in a certain way to make me believe what they want me to believe.

 

[sensenreason]

The only land not government controlled in pockets in FATA and pockets in Balochistan. It's nowhere near 50%. Less than 5%, I imagine, and probably less than 1% of the population live on that land. Economically that land for the most part is useless.

Exactly the same is true for the land IN Naxals control. They try to launch attacks on areas where Mines and other economic infrastructure is there; so that surely wont occur to you or specifically to Mr Haq when talking about India...It surely isnt 5%. Whole of Balochistan should be included in this....ofcourse you can cherry pick.

 

[indian_musing]

Pakistan, a failed state: Noam Chomsky

Pakistan, a failed state: Noam Chomsky
Press Trust of India / Islamabad February 3, 2008
Noted philosopher and political activist Noam Chomsky said Pakistan was a "paradigm example of a failed state" that had undergone an "extremely dangerous form of radical Islamisation."

The country was now in danger of "collapsing" as it grappled with rebellion, militancy and extremism that was "getting worse" and the assassination last month of former premier Benazir Bhutto might increase unrest in Sindh, Chomsky said in an interview.

Asked to draw a parallel between the situation in Pakistan and the characteristics of a failed state highlighted in his book "Failed States", Chomsky said, "I am afraid to say Pakistan is the paradigm example of a failed state and has been for a long time. It has had military rule, violence and oppression."

Since the 1980s, the country had undergone an extremely dangerous form of radical Islamisation, which had undermined a good part of the society, under the Zia-ul-Haq tyranny, he said.

"Now it is in danger of collapsing, there is a rebellion in Balochistan, the (Federally Administered Tribal Areas) territories are out of control and always have been -- and it is getting worse. It is possible that the Bhutto assassination might increase the severe unrest in Sindh, where there has been plenty of oppression, and this may lead to another secessionist movement, " he said.

Recent surveys had shown that the Pakistani people were "in favour of democracy, possibly with an Islamic flavour" but "those hopes are not even near being realised in the existing political and social system", Chomsky said.

Asked about solutions for Pakistan to become a true democracy, Chomsky felt democracy could be achieved only by "developing political and social arrangements in which the population can actually determine effective policy".

Chomsky, a fierce critic of American foreign policy, pointed out that Pakistan's alliance with the US "has been quite harmful throughout its history".

He said: "The US has tried to convert Pakistan into its highly militarised ally and has supported its military dictatorship.

 

[SMC]

Whole of Balochistan? Who told you this? Balochistan for the most part is under government control.

 

[SMC]

LOL. You're seriously on a trolling rampage. The article is from 2008 and most of what that guy is saying is false or is false now.