Comparing India and Pakistan 2010

[karan.1970]

Do you always quote long articles in their entirety? Or do you select parts that are relevant to the question at hand?

What I quoted from Dalymple was the part relevant to the infrastructure question that was being discussed.

Riaz

Now you are simply trying to weasel out of getting busted. You posted 2 articles, and both were pruned so as to show the part where good things about Pakistan and bad things about india were said. And you left out the parts critical of Pakistan and appreciative of INdia. Please dont insult the intellegence of people on this board by justifying this by saying that you only removed the irrelevent part..

BTW you did the same with your 1st post where you selectively quote an article by the World Bank Director...

 

[riju78]

i dont lash out at fellow indians and like karan has already said we r well aware of our poverty and we r improving like he pointed out with data which u have ignored all this time. The last thing we want is u with u anti india mindset reminding us and saying pakistan is better which again has been proven wrong by many people here. U choose and pick what suits u. U still havent answered y r u not in pakistan

 

[karan.1970]

Dalrymple is not alone in busting the myths perpetrated by the Indians and the western media about India as a superpower and Pakistan a failed state. I know it from personal experience of my travel to both nations.

Here's Yoginder Sikand 10 June, 2008 Countercurrents.org

"Islamabad is surely the most well-organized,picturesque and endearing city in all of South Asia. Few Indians would, however, know this, or, if they did, would admit it. After all, the Indian media never highlights anything positive about Pakistan, because for it only 'bad' news about the country appears to be considered 'newsworthy'. That realization hit me as a rude shock the moment I stepped out of the plane and entered Islamabad's plush International Airport, easily far more efficient, modern and better maintained than any of its counterparts in India. And right through my week-long stay in the city, I could not help comparing Islamabad favorably with every other South Asian city that I have visited. That week in Islamabad consisted essentially of a long string of pleasant surprises, for I had expected Islamabad to be everything that the Indian media so uncharitably and erroneously depicts Pakistan as. The immigration counter was staffed by a smart young woman, whose endearing cheerfulness was a refreshing contrast to the grave, somber and unwelcoming looks that one is generally met with at immigration counters across the world that make visitors to a new country feel instantly unwelcome."

And here's the ending of the article..

But then, Islamabad is as representative or otherwise of Pakistan as
posh South Delhi or any other similar elite-inhabited part of any
other Indian city is of India as a whole. Islamabad is decidedly
elitist, the poor, mainly people who work in the homes of the rich and
for the CDA, being confined to a few anonymous working class
localities in the city or commuting everyday from neighbouring
Rawalpindi. As Zaman Khan, a burly, friendly worker in a posh
restaurant quipped when we got down to talking about mounting
inflation and rapidly expanding socio-economic inequalities in India
and Pakistan, ‘There’s hardly any difference between our two
countries. I am sure you have fancy quarters in cities in India that
are reserved just for the rich, just as Islamabad has. What difference
does it make if the houses and localities of the rich are so beautiful
and comfortable? The rich here and in India as well must be equally
indifferent to poor people like us.’

 

[karan.1970]

Here's Bill Sykes BBC News 12 November, 2007

"Suicide bombs, battles in tribal areas, and states of emergency tend to put off casual tourists. But the impression such events convey can often be misleading and unrepresentative of a country as a whole. A few days ago I was sitting in a cafe sipping best Italian espresso and reading a news magazine. The front page was full of furious faces and clenched fists under the headline, The Most Dangerous Nation in the World isn't Iraq, it's Pakistan. The cafe was in a smart bookshop in Pakistan's capital, Islamabad. I sighed and turned to the article inside.
It was a revealing analysis of some penetration of a few places in Pakistan by the Taleban and al-Qaeda. I pondered the magnifying-glass effect of dramatic news coverage. The suicide bomb attack on Benazir Bhutto's homecoming parade in Karachi in October, which killed an estimated 140 people, and the assault on a Taleban pocket in the Swat valley, a tourist destination, took place while I was in Pakistan.
But neither event had a noticeable effect on the general sense of security and stability where I was in Islamabad or on the road. The notion that Pakistan is more dangerous than Iraq is absurd."

So this shows that this gentleman believes that Pakistan is not worse off than Iraq.. Agreed..

 

[RiazHaq]

Riaz

Now you are simply trying to weasel out of getting busted. You posted 2 articles, and both were pruned so as to show the part where good things about Pakistan and bad things about india were said. And you left out the parts critical of Pakistan and appreciative of INdia. Please dont insult the intellegence of people on this board by justifying this by saying that you only removed the irrelevent part..

BTW you did the same with your 1st post where you selectively quote an article by the World Bank Director...

There's clearly the Indian mob mentality here at work, with several Indian posters using their numbers to make a lot of noise to drown out the facts. It's pattern across many web sites, whether operated by Pakistanis or others. This thread is a prime example of Indians piling in and thanking each other for distorting facts to fool the readers (and probably themselves in some cases) into believing all the myths about India and Pakistan.

As to being busted, the only thing that got busted here are the myths perpetrated by you and many of your fellow Indians that "India is a superpower and Pakistan a failed state".

That's the clear message from Intelligence Squared debate video I posted, and many other analysts and observers who have seen, visited and compared India and Pakistan first hand. The speakers at the debate and others all agree that India is no superpower, Pakistan is nothing like a failed state, and Pakistan is in many ways better than India in terms of standards of living and infrastructure.

Unlike most ill-informed and bigoted Indian posters here who like to opine about Pakistan and claim India is better, I have personally had the opportunity to visit and compare both nations. And I agree with the common theme of the observations of people like Dalrymple, Scrutton, Sikand and others who have done the same and concluded that Pakistan is significantly better than India in many ways.

 

[sensenreason]

There's clearly the Indian mob mentality here at work, with several Indian posters using their numbers to make a lot of noise to drown out the facts. It's pattern across many web sites, whether operated by Pakistanis or others. This thread is a prime example of Indians piling in and thanking each other for distorting facts to fool the readers (and probably themselves in some cases) into believing all the myths about India and Pakistan.

As to being busted, the only thing that got busted here are the myths perpetrated by you and many of your fellow Indians that "India is a superpower and Pakistan a failed state".

That's the clear message from Intelligence Squared debate video I posted, and many other analysts and observers who have seen, visited and compared India and Pakistan first hand. The speakers at the debate and others all agree that India is no superpower, Pakistan is nothing like a failed state, and Pakistan is in many ways better than India in terms of standards of living and infrastructure.

Unlike most ill-informed and bigoted Indian posters here who like to opine about Pakistan and claim India is better, I have personally had the opportunity to visit and compare both nations. And I agree with the common theme of the observations of people like Dalrymple, Scrutton, Sikand and others who have done the same and concluded that Pakistan is significantly better than India in many ways.

Lot of things you have written might be true. Ive never been to Pakistan but from what Im hearing it might have its endearing qualities and is not the worst place in the world and in some ways better than India.

However, I think in any such comparison you have to bear in mind the size of the country either by geography, population or just diversity. Ifyou consider the above parameters while the Indian performance is shoddy but in light of the odds not the worst and maybe a shade better than Pakistan if it was apple to apple environment.

Pakistan gets bad press in India as I never hear anything positive coming out of there about India, ever. The problem here isnt in the details but in the basic lack of 'respect' that Pakistanis have for Indians. Secondly, in every field whether its of any interest on its own but Pakistan must have it if India does. This me too from Pakistan is all pervasive and all consuming.This doesnt mean that India is all good and doesnt do the above but on balance Pakistan 'beats' India hands down in this mentality...While I have no animosity towards Pakistan, its my sad conclusion (by being in this forum) that even if tomorrow Kashmir issue is resolved to Pakistan's satisfaction that Pakistans attittude towards India will not change, because the problem lies in Pakistan's mind.

 

[toxic_pus]

Do you always quote long articles in their entirety? Or do you select parts that are relevant to the question at hand?

Now that karan has called your bluff, you are trying to bullsh!t your way through, eh? What you did is known in debating circle as quote mining.

You took Dalrymple's comment, stripped it off its context and presented in an entirely different light. With that comment, Dalrymple was meaning to say that with a plethora of faults, India is still moving ahead in its own unique way, while the conjoined twin Pakistan is fighting for survival every second week or month, leave aside moving ahead. You used the same comment to mean just the opposite.

You did the same with Scrutton's article. His article makes it clear that one motorway is not representative of entire Pakistan but in fact is an aberration of sorts. But you presented in a way that would lead the audience to believe that, that one highway is quintessential Pakistan.

That is intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.

And come on (a)muser, come up with something original, instead shuffling and reshuffling the same articles over and over and over again. Give us something new.

 

[toxic_pus]

There's clearly the Indian mob mentality here at work, with several Indian posters using their numbers to make a lot of noise to drown out the facts. It's pattern across many web sites, whether operated by Pakistanis or others. This thread is a prime example of Indians piling in and thanking each other for distorting facts to fool the readers (and probably themselves in some cases) into believing all the myths about India and Pakistan.

Whine away. Thats what happens when one is caught with his hands in his pants.

As to being busted, the only thing that got busted here are the myths perpetrated by you and many of your fellow Indians that "India is a superpower and Pakistan a failed state".

That's the clear message from Intelligence Squared debate video I posted, and many other analysts and observers who have seen, visited and compared India and Pakistan first hand. The speakers at the debate and others all agree that India is no superpower, Pakistan is nothing like a failed state, and Pakistan is in many ways better than India in terms of standards of living and infrastructure.

Unlike most ill-informed and bigoted Indian posters here who like to opine about Pakistan and claim India is better, I have personally had the opportunity to visit and compare both nations. And I agree with the common theme of the observations of people like Dalrymple, Scrutton, Sikand and others who have done the same and concluded that Pakistan is significantly better than India in many ways.

You are unbelievable. The 'common theme' of all the names you have thrown in is that both the countries are same in more ways than one, but while India is stepping in the right direction of progress, Pakistan is still caught in a time warp and is many moons away from being mentioned in the context of progress. Dlarymple is particularly scathing about Pakistan. Scrutton sugarcoats his criticism. So does Sikand.

It is amazing how much a person's vision can be blinkered. So blinkered that he forgets that the whole articles, with links have already been presented right in this thread, just a couple of pages back.

Amazing and unbelievable.

 

[RiazHaq]

Now that karan has called your bluff, you are trying to bullsh!t your way through, eh? What you did is known in debating circle as quote mining.

You took Dalrymple's comment, stripped it off its context and presented in an entirely different light. With that comment, Dalrymple was meaning to say that with a plethora of faults, India is still moving ahead in its own unique way, while the conjoined twin Pakistan is fighting for survival every second week or month, leave aside moving ahead. You used the same comment to mean just the opposite.

You did the same with Scrutton's article. His article makes it clear that one motorway is not representative of entire Pakistan but in fact is an aberration of sorts. But you presented in a way that would lead the audience to believe that, that one highway is quintessential Pakistan.

This is nonsense. Or deliberate misleading spin. You are just part the mob I referred to earlier.

The whole premise and theme of Dalrymple's remarks is designed to debunk the myth of "India super power, Pakistan failed state". Any one who has basic comprehension of the English language and basic intellectual honesty can understand that.

Here it is for any one who cares to draw their own conclusions:

It's the same theme with Scrutton, as his caption clearly spells it out clearly :Failed state? Try Pakistan's M2 motorway

WITNESS: Failed state? Try Pakistan's M2 motorway | Reuters

 

[TheEnrichedOne]

U.S. envoy: Pakistan not a failed state

WASHINGTON - Pakistan is not a failed state but its government is facing tremendous challenges and needs U.S. help to counter Taliban advances, the Obama administration's point man for the region said Tuesday.

Richard Holbrooke, the U.S. special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, told a congressional committee that Pakistan's survival as a moderate, democratic state is critical to U.S. national security.

"Our most vital national security interests are at stake," Holbrooke told the House Foreign Affairs Committee. He said that although Pakistan "is a state under enormous social, political and economic pressures," it "is not a failed state."
Holbrooke was testifying ahead of meetings this week between President Barack Obama and the leaders of Afghanistan and Pakistan during which the administration will press the Pakistanis on combating extremists.

Congress considers aid

Congress is considering a major boost in nonmilitary assistance to Pakistan — $1.5 billion per year over five years — and Holbrooke said success there is key to America's escalating military operation in Afghanistan.

"We need to put the most heavy possible pressure on our friends in Pakistan to join us in the fight against the Taliban and its allies," he said. "We cannot succeed in Afghanistan without Pakistan's support and involvement."

Speaking separately at a Washington think tank, Afghan President Hamid Karzai made a similar point. He said the key to the Taliban's resurgence in recent years is its havens across the border in Pakistan.

"The return of the Taliban is because we did not address the question of sanctuaries in time," Karzai said during a question-and-answer session with an audience of policy experts at the Brookings Institution.

Holbrooke played down suggestions that the administration is backing away from Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari in favor of opposition leader Nawaz Sharif. He praised Zardari for taking politically difficult stands by trying to work with Washington.

"We have not distanced ourselves from President Zardari," he said. "We have the highest strategic interests in supporting this government."

He compared U.S. relations with Sharif to contacts that American officials have with opposition leaders in other countries.

Several lawmakers questioned Holbrooke on Zardari's ability to control his country, with Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y., saying "Pakistan's pants are on fire." Holbrooke urged Ackerman and others to speak with Zardari about their concerns while he is in Washington.

Concern about nuclear arsenal

Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton will hold two sets of meetings on Wednesday with Zardari and Karzai. Holbrooke said the talks, which will continue at a lower level on Thursday, will be historically important.

Clinton will meet with Zardari and Karzai and their delegations separately at the State Department before bringing them together there. Later, at the White House, Obama will follow the same pattern in talks with the two leaders, according to Holbrooke.

In the meetings, the administration will be seeking assurances that Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is safe and that its military intends to face down Taliban and al-Qaida extremists in coordination with Afghanistan and the United States.

Holbrooke declined to address the nuclear issue in open testimony, but other officials have said that while they believe Pakistan's nuclear weapons are secure for the moment, there is acute concern that militants might try to seize one or several of them.

Those anxieties have heightened amid the Taliban's recent advances and Americans worry about the commitment from Pakistan's government and military in battling the extremists, the officials said.

U.S. officials have also expressed concern that Pakistan's military and civilian leaders still regard traditional rival India as the greatest threat to their country and do not appreciate the dangers of rising Taliban and al-Qaida influence in their backyard.

"There is a real and present danger to Pakistan's survival but it comes from inside and not outside the country," Holbrooke said.

U.S. envoy: Pakistan not a failed state - Pakistan - msnbc.com

 

[toxic_pus]

This is nonsense. Or deliberate misleading spin. You are just part the mob I referred to earlier.

You are right I am part of that cabal.

The whole premise and theme of Dalrymple's remarks is designed to debunk the myth of "India super power, Pakistan failed state". Any one who has basic comprehension of the English language and basic intellectual honesty can understand that.

Here it is for any one who cares to draw their own conclusions:

YouTube - IQ2 Discussion "Pakistan: what next?" (8 of 12)

Haven't watched the youtube vid so can't comment on that. However I have read the article you had quoted earlier, and much to your chagrin posted by karan. Here is the concluding remark by Dalrymple from that article.

Sixty years after its birth, India faces a number of serious problems - not least the growing gap between rich and poor, the criminalisation of politics, and the flourishing Maoist and Naxalite groups that have recently proliferated in the east of the country. But Pakistan's problems are on a different scale; indeed, the country finds itself at a crossroads. As Jugnu Mohsin, the publisher of the Lahore-based Friday Times, put it recently, "After a period of relative quiet, for the first time in a decade, we are back to the old question: it is not just whether Pakistan, but will Pakistan survive?" On the country's 60th birthday, the answer is by no means clear.​

It's the same theme with Scrutton, as his caption clearly spells it out clearly :Failed state? Try Pakistan's M2 motorway

WITNESS: Failed state? Try Pakistan's M2 motorway | Reuters

So its the caption that means everything and the content means...nothing. Here's the concluding part.

The real Pakistan can be seen from the car window, but in the distance. Colorful painted lorries still ply those roads. Dirt poor villagers toil in brick factories, farmers on donkey carts go about their business.

Of course, four hours of mundane travel is quite enough. Arriving in Lahore, the road suddenly turns into South Asia once again. Dust seeps through the open car window, endless honks sound, beggars knock on car windows. The driver begins again his daily, dangerous battle for road supremacy.

As Pakistan unveils itself in all its vibrancy, it is exciting to be back. But you can't help feel a tinge of regret at having experienced, briefly, a lost dream.
​

What was it you were saying about English and comprehension?

Nevermind. Carry on making a fool of yourself.

 

[karan.1970]

There's clearly the Indian mob mentality here at work, with several Indian posters using their numbers to make a lot of noise to drown out the facts. It's pattern across many web sites, whether operated by Pakistanis or others. This thread is a prime example of Indians piling in and thanking each other for distorting facts to fool the readers (and probably themselves in some cases) into believing all the myths about India and Pakistan.

As to being busted, the only thing that got busted here are the myths perpetrated by you and many of your fellow Indians that "India is a superpower and Pakistan a failed state".

That's the clear message from Intelligence Squared debate video I posted, and many other analysts and observers who have seen, visited and compared India and Pakistan first hand. The speakers at the debate and others all agree that India is no superpower, Pakistan is nothing like a failed state, and Pakistan is in many ways better than India in terms of standards of living and infrastructure.

Unlike most ill-informed and bigoted Indian posters here who like to opine about Pakistan and claim India is better, I have personally had the opportunity to visit and compare both nations. And I agree with the common theme of the observations of people like Dalrymple, Scrutton, Sikand and others who have done the same and concluded that Pakistan is significantly better than India in many ways.

Now you are simply whining.. Dude.. You tried to massage that data a little bit to make your arguement stronger.. Used partial articles to convey a different conclusion than what the author intended and got caught with your hand in the cookie jar. that's all right... ..But now dont act like a priest who when caught in a brothel starts blaming the people for not believing that he came there to sermonize the ladies..

Lets move on... btw.. none of my posts either calls India a super power or Pakistan a failed state and niether have i initiated comparison threads to show who is better off...Actually its the other way round where you have been trying to prove that India is a failed state (there is a thread that you created with the similar name) and Pakistan is better than India. So again, dont play the martyr here...And pardon me for not taking your conclusion on India and Pakistan simply because of you having had the opportunity to see both countries. You may have had the opportunity to form an objective opinion, but I dont believe you have the objective mindset to form one...

 

[desiman]

There's clearly the Indian mob mentality here at work, with several Indian posters using their numbers to make a lot of noise to drown out the facts. It's pattern across many web sites, whether operated by Pakistanis or others. This thread is a prime example of Indians piling in and thanking each other for distorting facts to fool the readers (and probably themselves in some cases) into believing all the myths about India and Pakistan.

As to being busted, the only thing that got busted here are the myths perpetrated by you and many of your fellow Indians that "India is a superpower and Pakistan a failed state".

That's the clear message from Intelligence Squared debate video I posted, and many other analysts and observers who have seen, visited and compared India and Pakistan first hand. The speakers at the debate and others all agree that India is no superpower, Pakistan is nothing like a failed state, and Pakistan is in many ways better than India in terms of standards of living and infrastructure.

Unlike most ill-informed and bigoted Indian posters here who like to opine about Pakistan and claim India is better, I have personally had the opportunity to visit and compare both nations. And I agree with the common theme of the observations of people like Dalrymple, Scrutton, Sikand and others who have done the same and concluded that Pakistan is significantly better than India in many ways.

awwwwww little baby is crying , there there mr.haq don’t start shedding tears when you have lost all your arguments. Now go and open another thread so that you feel better.

 

[indian_musing]

This is nonsense. Or deliberate misleading spin. You are just part the mob I referred to earlier.

The whole premise and theme of Dalrymple's remarks is designed to debunk the myth of "India super power, Pakistan failed state". Any one who has basic comprehension of the English language and basic intellectual honesty can understand that.

Here it is for any one who cares to draw their own conclusions:

YouTube - IQ2 Discussion "Pakistan: what next?" (8 of 12)

It's the same theme with Scrutton, as his caption clearly spells it out clearly :Failed state? Try Pakistan's M2 motorway

WITNESS: Failed state? Try Pakistan's M2 motorway | Reuters

Senator and US presidential runner John McCain saying something. "Pakistan is not a failed state it was already a failed state." It is in same league as Irag, Afghanistan and somalia.

 

[desiman]

Riaz

Now you are simply trying to weasel out of getting busted. You posted 2 articles, and both were pruned so as to show the part where good things about Pakistan and bad things about india were said. And you left out the parts critical of Pakistan and appreciative of INdia. Please dont insult the intellegence of people on this board by justifying this by saying that you only removed the irrelevent part..

BTW you did the same with your 1st post where you selectively quote an article by the World Bank Director...

This guy is prime example of a well educated Fraud. Cutting out pieces of articles to make his point somehow and making up the statistics to go with that, you really should be ashamed of yourself, even at this age you do such petite things. This shows that how intelligence is not gained by age but by humility.