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Comparing India and Pakistan 2010

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The International Bank for Reconstruction and Development would lend $9.6 billion and the International Development Association would make available $4.4 billion of funding, according to India's Financial Express.

Only 30 per cent of India's state highways have two lanes or more, and the majority are in poor condition, the bank said. Electricity generation capacity has grown at less than 5 per cent in the past five years, much slower than overall economic growth of about 8 per cent over the same period.

Haq's Musings: Foreign Aid Continues to Pour in Resurgent India

yes India wants to develop fastly... therefore India takes loans from monetary bodies.... look at the graph for which you provided link..
china takes far more aid than india..... and pakistan is nowhere...:victory::victory:
 
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who so ever the british writer ... he is biased... look he shows whole of kashmir in pakistan..
 
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who so ever the british writer ... he is biased... look he shows whole of kashmir in pakistan..

Here he is. Just listen to him. He calls himself an India lover and has lived there for a while:

 
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Lolzzzzzzzz I go and Teach what you call Economics of Development in LSE {read my intro}....... Let me educate YOU on this on dear.[Need Links????}

And try to get the sense of the message... what call center meant in the senario.... but again who am I talking to... It meant all the FDI [foreign direct investment.... which is not fixed and can be taken out].

But in today's global economy that holds true for every kind of capital. It flows towards the country whereever the risk/reward ratio is favorable. Precisely the reason because of which the US admin has only made noises about outsourcing but have done pretty little against it. Simply because it made business sense for American corporates and enhanced their profitability. Lip service and token gestures aside, specially in US, most stuff is dictated by the financial risk / reward ratio and as long as India (or any other country) is successful in keeping that attractive (along with no obvious threats to US security), there is little probability of reversal of capital investments

Just my 2 cents...
 
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deckinraj,

With due apologies to a few reasonable Indian posters here, let me say to the rest of you that your personal attacks simply show your total desperation. Your behavior and that of some of your fellow Indian posters who engage in personal abuse and insults does not reflect well on your education and upbringing, or your country.
Riaz.. May be its unintentional, but your style of writing.. i.e. supplementing objective research by others (which you pick up selectively and partially) with your maligning interpretations is what results in these reactions. And that too reflects on your pysche towards India.. Its a little naive to expect civilized responses when you make such malicious attacks against one's country..

I know it's very hard for you to digest the reality of India's utter backwardness as a nation (with the exception of a few bright individuals), and abject deprivation of the vast majority of its people when you have been taught by a broken system otherwise.
Yes.. Bad things about one's country always hurt..However in this case, coming from a person whose country is significantly worse off at present time(whatever be the reason and however well that country was in the past) is what is unacceptable to most...

The only thing I can conclude from many of the comments here so far is that you and some of your cohorts are a product of a system of rote learning that does not encourage any reasoning or independent thinking. It's really sad.

Riaz.. Expecting reasonable responses to malicious attacks shrouded in partially selected and at times dated data is naive at best. But I guess you know that..
 
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This is for your infrastructure problems:
Roads are the lifelines of an economy. The Rakesh Mohan Committee on Infrastructure highlighted several facts and issues. The public sector outlay for road development in the First Plan was 6.7 percent. It dropped down to a mere 3 percent in the Eighth Plan. Investments in NHs went down from 1.4 percent of the total outlay to 0.6 percent in the same period.

While in India the road development doesn’t have any strong lobby, the automobile industry has gone for an overkill. The present limited road space with an unbalanced growth of vehicles can only be ignored at a great cost to the economy. The backbone of Macro Logistics is the roads. Unless the anticipated growth of vehicles is accompanied by super highways, NHs and SHs, the economy will get a set back as the basic logistics of both Micro and Macro will be at a snail’s pace. The Rakesh Mohan Committee estimated that the economic cost of bad roads ranges from Rs.20,000 crore2 to Rs.30, 000 crore annually.

In India, hardly 30 to 40 percent of the revenue realized from roads are thrown back into road development. In advanced economies like U.S., Switzerland and Japan, the entire amount is thrown back into road development. These countries realized that the expenditure on roads is an investment leading to accelerated growth in every other sector. The roads in India have become cash cows. It is estimated that the transport sector pays Rs.4500 crore every year to various state governments as taxes. The present practice of taxation in the road transport sector was the practice during British India when the government wanted to protect Railways in which the British had financial interests. There is certainly a need to rethink the entire taxation on the road transport sector if the government wants the road and freight transport infrastructure to support Macro Logistics in India.

Source: Impact of transportation infrastructure on logistics in India Business Logistics & SCM

Great article.. thanks.. Would really like to hear your views on the recent changes in the road development policy of India and also on the impact of the rail network of India as a substitute to Road network
 
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Riaz.. May be its unintentional, but your style of writing.. i.e. supplementing objective research by others (which you pick up selectively and partially) with your maligning interpretations is what results in these reactions. And that too reflects on your pysche towards India.. Its a little naive to expect civilized responses when you make such malicious attacks against one's country..


Yes.. Bad things about one's country always hurt..However in this case, coming from a person whose country is significantly worse off at present time(whatever be the reason and however well that country was in the past) is what is unacceptable to most...



Riaz.. Expecting reasonable responses to malicious attacks shrouded in partially selected and at times dated data is naive at best. But I guess you know that..

Ready to take my advise now karan :P
 
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Here how your social system is getting its pounding:
Social Inequality Threatening India's Economic Stability
BY FC Expert Blogger Anupam MukerjiTue Dec 26, 2006
This blog is written by a member of our expert blogging community and expresses that expert's views alone.

Can a country where a third of the population is illiterate be an Information Technology superpower? Can a country where 78 million rural homes have never seen electricity be an economic superpower? Can anyone feel safe living in islands of prosperity in a sea of poverty? While India’s educated elite are reveling in their new found status on the global stage, inequitable distribution of wealth and opportunities are shaking the very foundation of India’s new economy. Will the Indian government’s apathy towards the rural poor bring India’s party to an abrupt end?
Fair comments by an Indian trying to jolt Indian govt into action. No m. However, go back 20 years and same things were said about China..

In the last 12 years, India's economy has grown at an average annual rate of about 7 percent, reducing poverty by 10 percent. However, 40 percent of the world's poor still live in India, and 28 percent of the country's population continues to live below the poverty line. More than one third live on less than a dollar a day, and 80 percent live on less than two dollars a day. India's recent economic growth has been attributed to the service industry, but 60 percent of the workforce remains in agriculture.
Again.. Statistics can be used to virutally show anything you want.. Now plotting the same indicators as above will show you an extremely positive trend in all of them. However the article here is an attempt by an Indian author to force Indian establishment to Do More and I respect that.. But really, all problems can not be solved together.. It has to be sequential for most parts.. Taking the example of Pakistan (because the thread was opend by Riaz to compare the 2 countries :hitwall:), today Pakistan needs to address the issue of terrorism and extremism before focusing full hog on economy. While in an ideal world, all negatives should be removed immidiately, in real world that may not work


The rate of increasing disparity between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’, is hard to miss in tech centers like Bangalore, Chennai and Delhi. Technology professionals are returning, having made their millions in the US. They are driving expensive cars and living in luxury apartments. Cities are growing in all directions. Farmlands are being acquired to build luxury townships, golf courses, five star hotels, spas and clubs. Poor farmers get paid off, and are forced to move further away from the city. And while global leaders and businessmen wax eloquent about India’s growing status as an IT superpower, everyone turns a blind eye to the majority of the population untouched by the economic growth.

And the scenario is not too different in smaller cities. Nagpur is a bustling metropolis in the heart of India, in a region known as Vidarbha. There are signs of economic boom everywhere in the city – shopping arcades, multiplexes, pubs, and luxury clubs. Yet, right outside the city, farmers are committing suicide due to their inability to repay debts as small as $100. In the last five years, almost two thousand farmers in the region have killed themselves.

Hyderabad is the capital city of the state of Andhra Pradesh. In the last decade, Hyderabad has established itself as a worthy successor to Bangalore. Companies like Microsoft, Wipro, Infosys, GE, HSBC have all made their presence felt in the city. Bill Gates, Bill Clinton, Jack Welch and a host of other global biggies have visited the city and proclaimed their confidence in its play in the global world. Yet, a continuing drought and a lack of government support has led to 4500 farmer suicides in the last 7 years in the state of Andhra Pradesh.


Isnt this true for virtually every developing country. How difficult would it be to apply the above lines to Pakistan by simply changing the names of the city. Do realize that the thread is not about downsides of India, but about how do two countries (India and Pakistan) fare against each other..
A socio-economic structure as lopsided as this is bound to collapse sooner or later. And some horrific incidents in the recent past signal the appearance of cracks in the Indian structure.

Last month, Adobe India CEO Naresh Gupta’s two-year old son was kidnapped from Noida in suburban New Delhi. The child was released on the payment of a ransom of $100,000, but the kidnappers were eventually caught by the police and the ransom amount recovered.

More recently, Adhip Lahiri, a young man working for i2 technologies in Bangalore, was brutally murdered as he was returning home from work at 10.30 pm. His wristwatch, ring, wallet, laptop, cell phone and car were missing, and robbery seems to be the motive behind the crime.

In the last six months, five cases of carjacking have been reported from Bangalore alone.
Do you even want to see how this compares with unlawful (read terrorist) incidents in Pakistan??

And leave Pakistan aside, do you think even economies like USA and China are devoid of such issues??


It is quite obvious that India’s recent economic growth has not trickled down to the bottom. The majority of the population has been sitting by the sidelines watching the buildings grow taller and the roads get wider. What’s concerning is that there doesn’t seem to be any concerted government effort to rectify the situation. For the poor, a severe lack of basic health, education and training opportunities mean that not only are they in a miserable condition today, there isn’t much hope for the future either. It is only a matter of time when they barter their spades for knives, in a desperate attempt to liberate themselves from the throes of poverty.
As I said, it has to start somewhere.. Every body can not be uplifted together.. But yes, govt needs to make the right efforts to now percolate this wealth into social services..But again, how does this compare with Pakistan..


A country with such an unequal distribution of opportunities and wealth can never promise long-term security and stability. Any individual or establishment that symbolizes this economic and social disparity will be under threat. India wishes to become an economic superpower. But, if India wants what it wishes, these glaring social and economic problems must be addressed directly and earnestly. And until, these problems are addressed, no company setting up base in India can feel truly secure.

While, the government must own primary responsibility for social upliftment, the answer to India’s woes probably lies in a public-private partnership towards addressing India’s deprived poor. It’s happening in pockets. Companies like the Tata Group have ingrained social responsibility in their DNA. Azim Premji Foundation, promoted by the Wipro Chairman, is working with state governments to improve grassroots level education in rural India. What’s probably now needed is for all private enterprises and government bodies to collaborate, to create a larger, more meaningful, nationwide impact.

Corporations should not view it purely from a philanthropic perspective. A bigger pool of educated and employable population will mean availability of better quality human resources. And a stable society creates a far more secure environment to do business in. Cleansing the environment where you are running your operations definitely makes better long term business sense. And the sooner corporations realize this, the better it is for everyone.

Source: Social Inequality Threatening India's Economic Stability | Fast Company

Again, a great point but does not address the topic of the thread..
 
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Great article.. thanks.. Would really like to hear your views on the recent changes in the road development policy of India and also on the impact of the rail network of India as a substitute to Road network
From the same blog

Approximately 12,306 route km, constituting over 19.5 percent of the total network and 30 percent of broad gauge network on Indian Railway, is electrified. This carries approx. 41 percent of the passenger traffic and 52 percent of the freight traffic on Indian Railways. The Indian Railway system has developed a capacity to carry 410 million tons of originating revenue-earning traffic, which in turn of transport output is 283 BTKM. During 1995-1996, the revenue earning freight traffic moved by Railways was 390 million tons growing at the rate of 7 percent. The total passenger traffic in the year 1995– 1996 was 4018 million.

The author uses very outdated data. For 2009
According to the report, in 2007-08, out of total originating traffic of 2555.35 million tonnes (mt), the Railways accounted for 30.08 per cent (768.7 mt) share of the cargo, highways accounted for 61 per cent (1558.9 mt), coastal shipping mode accounted for 2.31 per cent (59.1 mt), pipelines accounted for 4.44 per cent (113.5 mt), inland water transport accounted for 2.15 per cent (54.9 mt) and airlines accounted for 0.01 per cent (0.28 mt) share of the cargo. [...] But, in case the parameter for comparison is changed to net tonne kilometres (NTKM), the Railways account for 36.06 per cent, highways 50.12 per cent, coastal shipping 6.08 per cent, airlines 0.02 per cent, pipelines 7.48 per cent and inland water transport 0.24 per cent share of the cargo.

The Hindu Business Line : Share of cargo moved by rail drops to 30%: RITES study

For a better perspective, share of rail freight in US, measured in ton-miles, is 42%, while in Europe the average is about 15%.
 
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Here goes your recent problems:
Problems Facing Indian Economy


1. Inflation.

Fuelled by rising wages, property prices and food prices inflation in India is an increasing problem. Inflation is currently between 6-7%. A record 98% of Indian firms report operating close to full capacity (2)With economic growth of 9.2% per annum inflationary pressures are likely to increase, especially with supply side constraints such as infrastructure. The wholesale-price index (WPI), rose to an annualised 6.6% in Janu 2007 (1)

Inflation is and has been signifiantly higher in Pakistan over last decade..

2009

India 10.7%
Pakistan 15%

2. Poor educational standards.

Although India has benefited from a high % of English speakers. (important for call centre industry) there is still high levels of illiteracy amongst the population. It is worse in rural areas and amongst
women. Over 50% of Indian women are illiterate

Literacy %

India
total population: 61%
male: 73.4%
female: 47.8%

Pakistan
total population: 49.9%
male: 63%
female: 36%


3. Poor Infrastructure.

Many Indians lack basic amenities lack access to running water. Indian public services are creaking under the strain of bureaucracy and inefficiency. Over 40% of Indian fruit rots before it reaches the market; this is one example of the supply constraints and inefficiency’s facing the Indian economy.
If you go thru this thread or some other similar thread opened by Haq, you will find statistics by World Economic Forum that will show how the composite infrastructure is worse off in Pakistan.


4. Balance of Payments deterioration.

Although India has built up large amounts of foreign currency reserves the current account deficit has deteriorate in recent months. This deterioration is a result of the overheating of the economy. Aggregate Supply cannot meet Aggregate demand so consumers are sucking in imports. Excluding workers remittances India’s current account deficit is approaching 5% of GDP

I wouldnt know why to remove worker remittances, but to do an apples to apples, India's current account balance (all inclusive) is close to -2.25 % and Pakistan's is close to -5.1% (double than India)

5. High levels of debt.

Buoyed by a property boom the amount of lending in India has grown by 30% in the past year. However there are concerns about the risk of such loans. If they are dependent on rising property prices it could be problematic. Furthermore if inflation increases further it may force the RBI to increase interest rates. If interest rates rise substantially it will leave those indebted facing rising interest payments and potentially reducing consumer spending in the future

true but noway near what we saw in the US. Rest of it is speculative at best. From a foreign debt perspective India's reserves more than cover for the existing foreign sovreign debt. Which is not the case for Pakistan..

6. Inequality has risen rather than decreased.

It is hoped that economic growth would help drag the Indian poor above the poverty line. However so far economic growth has been highly uneven benefiting the skilled and wealthy disproportionately. Many of India’s rural poor are yet to receive any tangible benefit from the India’s economic growth. More than 78 million homes do not have electricity. 33% (268million) of the population live on less than $1 per day. Furthermore with the spread of television in Indian villages the poor are increasingly aware of the disparity between rich and poor. (3)

As I said every thing can not be done together. Both sections show a continuous increase in their standard. Agreed the curve is steeper in middle class and above section of society, but thats a nay sayer arguement. The net of the country is growing as a whole.. The distribution of the accumulated wealth is skewed and needs fixing. Compare this with Pakistan where the net of the country itself has slowed down to a mere 2% gdp growth.

7. Large Budget Deficit.

India has one of the largest budget deficits in the developing world. Excluding subsidies it amounts to nearly 8% of GDP. Although it is fallen a little in the past year. It still allows little scope for increasing investment in public services like health and education.

Holds true for all economies in the investment phase of growth. However there has been no instances of a IMF Bailout to avoice a default as has been in case of Pakistan..


8. Rigid labour Laws.

As an example Firms employing more than 100 people cannot fire workers without government permission. The effect of this is to discourage firms from expanding to over 100 people. It also discourages foreign investment. Trades Unions have an important political power base and governments often shy away from tackling potentially politically sensitive labour laws.

One of the steps to ensure more protection for the weaker section of society. Here the govt is giving up a little growth to protect the underprivilaged. Actually your this point runs in contradiction to point 6


Now really, my examples above about comparison with Pakistan do not take away the fact that all these are very real problems, and my response to each of them would have been different (and less combatitive) if the thread was not about an idiotic comparison between India and Pakistan..
 
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The International Bank for Reconstruction and Development would lend $9.6 billion and the International Development Association would make available $4.4 billion of funding, according to India's Financial Express.

Only 30 per cent of India's state highways have two lanes or more, and the majority are in poor condition, the bank said. Electricity generation capacity has grown at less than 5 per cent in the past five years, much slower than overall economic growth of about 8 per cent over the same period.

Haq's Musings: Foreign Aid Continues to Pour in Resurgent India

Again .. you restrict your analysis to individual factors and not composites..

World Economic Forum Report
Explore The Global Competitiveness Report 2009-2010 2009 World Economic Forum

Infrastructure..



India 74/133 (Rank)
Pakistan 89/133(Rank)


This Index is a composite of Quality of overall infrastructure
Quality of roads
Quality of railroad infrastructure
Quality of port infrastructure
Quality of air transport infrastructure
Available seat kilometers
Quality of electricity supply
Telephone System

btw in the over all global competitiveness, India ranks 49/133 as against Pakistan who is at rank 101, just behind Kenya, Tanzania and Nigeria..
 
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BRICs have always had 50% of humanity...and yet India, China and Brazil have been nobodies for a long long time

The BRIC hype has been started by none other than Wall Street Bankers in Goldman Sachs out to make a few bucks....remember, these guys almost went out of business and had to be rescued by American taxpayers. .

Are you saying that your cherry picked and selectively edited articles you post are better than what Goldman Sachs analyzes? Than I have nothing to say.

Anyway what has research on BRIC done by Goldman Sachs had to do with Wall Street Bankers going out of the business? I always thought Subprime Securitization and the Credit Crisis was the reason. Thanks for enlightening me

As to your knowledge of Maoists insurgency in India, the less said the better. It seems you know nothing other than what you read in the shallow Indian media reports that are nothing but urban legends.

Do you know the difference between “25% of states have Maoist problems” and “25% of states are controlled by Maoist”? That answers your utter lack of knowledge on Maoists insurgency in India
 
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A British writer William Dalrymple, a self proclaimed Indophile who has lived in Delhi for years, visited and compared India and Pakistan on their 60th anniversary described Pakistan as follows:

"On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity. There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India. Moreover, the Pakistani economy is undergoing a construction and consumer boom similar to India's, with growth rates of 7%, and what is currently the fastest-rising stock market in Asia. You can see the effects everywhere: in new shopping centers and restaurant complexes, in the hoardings for the latest laptops and iPods, in the cranes and building sites, in the endless stores selling mobile phones: in 2003 the country had fewer than three million cellphone users; today there are almost 50 million."
You really have a habbit of selective copy and paste.. Dont you?? So actually left out the starting and ending of this article from Telegraph.. Allow me to do the honors..
The inital part that you left out

Amid all the hoopla surrounding the 60th anniversary of Indian independence, almost nothing has been heard from Pakistan, which turns 60 today. Nothing, that is, if you discount the low rumble of suicide bombings, the noise of automatic weapons storming the Red Mosque and the creak of slowly collapsing dictatorships.
In the world's media, never has the contrast between the two countries appeared so stark: one is widely perceived as the next great superpower; the other written off as a failed state, a world centre of Islamic radicalism, the hiding place of Osama bin Laden and the only US ally that Washington appears ready to bomb.


The Later part that you left out

One is the fundamental flaw in Pakistan's political system. Democracy has never thrived here, at least in part because landowning remains almost the only social base from which politicians can emerge. In general, the educated middle class - which in India seized control in 1947, emasculating the power of its landowners - is in Pakistan still largely excluded from the political process. As a result, in many of the more backward parts of Pakistan the local feudal zamindar can expect his people to vote for his chosen candidate. Such loyalty can be enforced. Many of the biggest zamindars have private prisons and most have private armies.

In such an environment, politicians tend to come to power more through deals done within Pakistan's small elite than through the will of the people. Behind Pakistan's swings between military governments and democracy lies a surprising continuity of interests: to some extent, the industrial, military, landowning and bureaucratic elites are now all related and look after one another. The current rumours of secret negotiations going on between Musharraf and Benazir Bhutto, the exiled former prime minister, are typical of the way that the civil and military elites have shared power with relatively little recourse to the electorate.

The second major problem that the country faces is linked with the absence of real democracy, and that is the many burgeoning jihadi and Islamist groups. For 25 years, the military and Pakistan's powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), have been the paymasters of myriad mujahideen groups. These were intended for selective deployment first in Afghanistan and then Kashmir, where they were intended to fight proxy wars for the army, at low cost and low risk.

Twenty-eight years after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, however, the results have been disastrous, filling the country with thousands of armed but now largely unemployed jihadis, millions of modern weapons, and a proliferation of militant groups.

While the military and intelligence community in Pakistan may have once believed that it could use jihadis for its own ends, the Islamists have followed their own agendas. As the recent upheavals in Islamabad have dramatically shown, they have now brought their struggle on to the streets and into the heart of the country's politics.

The third major issue facing the country is its desperate education crisis. No problem in Pakistan casts such a long shadow over its future as the abject failure of the government to educate more than a fraction of its own people: at the moment, a mere 1.8% of Pakistan's GDP is spent on government schools. The statistics are dire: 15% of these government schools are without a proper building; 52% without a boundary wall; 71% without electricity.

This was graphically confirmed by a survey conducted two years ago by the former Pakistan cricket captain turned politician, Imran Khan, in his own constituency of Mianwali. His research showed that 20% of government schools supposed to be functioning in his constituency did not exist at all, a quarter had no teachers and 70% were closed. No school had more than half of the teachers it was meant to have. Of those that were just about functioning, many had children of all grades crammed into a single room, often sitting on the floor in the absence of desks.

This education gap is the most striking way in which Pakistan is lagging behind India: in India, 65% of the population is literate and the number rises every year: only last year, the Indian education system received a substantial boost of state funds.

But in Pakistan, the literacy figure is under half (it is currently 49%) and falling: instead of investing in education, Musharraf's military government is spending money on a cripplingly expensive fleet of American F-16s for its air force. As a result, out of 162 million Pakistanis, 83 million adults of 15 years and above are illiterate. Among women the problem is worse still: 65% of all female adults are illiterate. As the population rockets, the problem gets worse.

The virtual collapse of government schooling has meant that many of the country's poorest people have no option but to place their children in the madrasa system, where they are guaranteed an ultra-conservative but free education, often subsidised by religious endowments provided by the Wahhabi Saudis.

Altogether there are now an estimated 800,000 to one million students enrolled in Pakistan's madrasas. Though the link between the madrasas and al-Qaida is often exaggerated, it is true that madrasa students have been closely involved in the rise of the Taliban and the growth of sectarian violence; it is also true that the education provided by many madrasas is often wholly inadequate to equip children for modern life in a civil society.

Sixty years after its birth, India faces a number of serious problems - not least the growing gap between rich and poor, the criminalisation of politics, and the flourishing Maoist and Naxalite groups that have recently proliferated in the east of the country. But Pakistan's problems are on a different scale; indeed, the country finds itself at a crossroads. As Jugnu Mohsin, the publisher of the Lahore-based Friday Times, put it recently, "After a period of relative quiet, for the first time in a decade, we are back to the old question: it is not just whether Pakistan, but will Pakistan survive?" On the country's 60th birthday, the answer is by no means clear.

For folks who want to read the full article together , Please find the link below
The 'poor' neighbour | World news | The Guardian
 
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