Featured Commander Iraqi Air Force, along with his delegation visited Air Headquarters & JSHQ

[peagle]

From what I gather they are regular Block 52s, just delivered without AMRAAMs. If they were basic US would not be as worried as it is now of of them falling in Iranian hands....

My understanding was that they are newer built and newer block versions, but the on-board sensor load has limitations.
How would they fall into Iranian hands? the American's would murder the Egyptians. I would have thought there is an almost non-existent risk of that happening.

 

[Yasser76]

My understanding was that they are newer built and newer block versions, but the on-board sensor load has limitations.
How would they fall into Iranian hands? the American's would murder the Egyptians. I would have thought there is an almost non-existent risk of that happening.

Do you have a source for the sensor down grades?

Please read the following

Iraqi F-16s Could Be in Jeopardy Amid Iran Tensions | RealClearDefense

Iraqi F-16s Could Be in Jeopardy Amid Iran Tensions | RealClearDefense

www.realcleardefense.com

Also what has Egypt got to do with all this?

 

[peagle]

Do you have a source for the sensor down grades?

Please read the following

Iraqi F-16s Could Be in Jeopardy Amid Iran Tensions | RealClearDefense

Iraqi F-16s Could Be in Jeopardy Amid Iran Tensions | RealClearDefense

www.realcleardefense.com

Also what has Egypt got to do with all this?

The nature of the thread is about Egypt, and you hadn't clarified the source of those concerns, so naturally my instinct turned towards Iranian getting their hands on Egyptian F16's. Yes, Iraqi ones should be a concern.

Some people like this site, some don't, but the article seems to be sensibly written. The deficiencies do point to largely a missile range gap, but also refers to the differences with the internal sensors, which would make sense, considering American sensitivities towards Israeli security.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...o-match-for-the-israel-s-own-fighting-falcons

 

[Akh1112]

I thought their F16's were rubbish, basic of the basic version, everything striped, to ensure they cant be effective against Israel.
Are they really worth acquiring, other then for spare parts?

No, they are literally the same as our 52's but the only difference is a software block which does not allow AMRAAM use- however, this can be undone by LM. Same for Egypt, this is to prevent sh*t hitting the fan and them having similar levels of gear as Israel- Degrading IL's QME.

I thought their F16's were rubbish, basic of the basic version, everything striped, to ensure they cant be effective against Israel.
Are they really worth acquiring, other then for spare parts?

nah, they are the same as other blk52

 

[peagle]

No, they are literally the same as our 52's but the only difference is a software block which does not allow AMRAAM use- however, this can be undone by LM. Same for Egypt, this is to prevent sh*t hitting the fan and them having similar levels of gear as Israel- Degrading IL's QME.

nah, they are the same as other blk52

I believed that to be the case. What is "LM".

I thought American permission would be required not just for the sale, but also to unblock any limitations placed on these planes.

 

[Akh1112]

I believed that to be the case. What is "LM".

I thought American permission would be required not just for the sale, but also to unblock any limitations placed on these planes.

Lockmart, but yes, they would need American assistance and permission. Issue is, US arms sales are a means of maintaining influence, by having the majority of the IQAF by the balls, the US can seriously cripple the IQAF making it harder for them to fight their insurgencies, this way the US gets to keep IQ under its sphere of influence as opposed to going deeper with Iran, Russia, China etc. I also have concerns about the Quality of those falcons. Once the LM contractors left, the Iraqi's tried their own Jugaad, their incompetence lead to many issues, at one point, they had left tools INSIDE the engine after maintenance, poor, poor falcons. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[peagle]

Lockmart, but yes, they would need American assistance and permission. Issue is, US arms sales are a means of maintaining influence, by having the majority of the IQAF by the balls, the US can seriously cripple the IQAF making it harder for them to fight their insurgencies, this way the US gets to keep IQ under its sphere of influence as opposed to going deeper with Iran, Russia, China etc. I also have concerns about the Quality of those falcons. Once the LM contractors left, the Iraqi's tried their own Jugaad, their incompetence lead to many issues, at one point, they had left tools INSIDE the engine after maintenance, poor, poor falcons. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I think it would be quiet hard for Pakistan to get any of those permissions from America with the present geo-strategic situation, and as you have highlighted the poor Jugaar-ship by the Iraqis is a big negative.
But, originally the post was concerning the possibility of getting our hands on Egyptian F16's, which I am sure are better kept then Iraqi ones, but without the required permissions, It's all a moot point.

Although if permissions are forthcoming, I think the Turks will come forward with their knowhow.

 

[Akh1112]

I think it would be quiet hard for Pakistan to get any of those permissions from America with the present geo-strategic situation, and as you have highlighted the poor Jugaar-ship by the Iraqis is a big negative.
But, originally the post was concerning the possibility of getting our hands on Egyptian F16's, which I am sure are better kept then Iraqi ones, but without the required permissions, It's all a moot point.

Although if permissions are forthcoming, I think the Turks will come forward with their knowhow.

There shouldn't be an issue with the PAF acquiring 2nd hand falcons, it negates the USA of responsibility to some extent, kind of like how france may not directly sell to us (this is a bad example as the relations are very different but kinda relevant anyway) however approved re export of Mir-V Horus, aircraft that are to the same level of some M2K's in terms of avionics- very capable fighters. The US is a-ok with selling to us granted we pay- the reason those AH-1Z are frozen is due to the way they were paid for- Using US subsidies, something trump revoked, if we want them, we need to pay up.

 

[peagle]

There shouldn't be an issue with the PAF acquiring 2nd hand falcons, it negates the USA of responsibility to some extent, kind of like how france may not directly sell to us (this is a bad example as the relations are very different but kinda relevant anyway) however approved re export of Mir-V Horus, aircraft that are to the same level of some M2K's in terms of avionics- very capable fighters. The US is a-ok with selling to us granted we pay- the reason those AH-1Z are frozen is due to the way they were paid for- Using US subsidies, something trump revoked, if we want them, we need to pay up.

I do understand what you are saying, but, these things change with time and conditions. It seems, things have changed a lot in the last few of years, and the above transactions happened long ago.

I don't think the French would give permission for resale of mirage 2000's from the Qatar to Pakistan, not that we should, but even if we tried, because they are more relevant to the modern battlefield, then the mirage 3's and 5's. I think we were quiet clever with the Mirage deal, finalise the fighter deal without too much drama, then negotiate an upgrade package.
The American permission for resale of F16's is only a possibility during the Afghan withdrawal, even then I would say a very slim possibility, especially as they are trying to bid for the Indian MMRCA contract, quiet a few if's and but's.

Anyhow, it seems our time has come to look beyond as we have more options available, and yet more over the horizon, depending on how the American vs. Indian vs. Russian relations workout. India is almost solidly in the American camp by the looks of it.

 

[Akh1112]

I do understand what you are saying, but, these things change with time and conditions. It seems, things have changed a lot in the last few of years, and the above transactions happened long ago.

I don't think the French would give permission for resale of mirage 2000's from the Qatar to Pakistan, not that we should, but even if we tried, because they are more relevant to the modern battlefield, then the mirage 3's and 5's. I think we were quiet clever with the Mirage deal, finalise the fighter deal without too much drama, then negotiate an upgrade package.
The American permission for resale of F16's is only a possibility during the Afghan withdrawal, even then I would say a very slim possibility, especially as they are trying to bid for the Indian MMRCA contract, quiet a few if's and but's.

Anyhow, it seems our time has come to look beyond as we have more options available, and yet more over the horizon, depending on how the American vs. Indian vs. Russian relations workout. India is almost solidly in the American camp by the looks of it.

I think i was unclear/there has been a misinterpretation.

I was referring to the Mirage V's from Egypt, those have been upgraded to the Horus standard, which includes the RDY-3, the same radar present on Moroccan F-1s and a derivative of the M2K-5's RDY-2 (which the IAF operates).

In terms of the MMRCA bid, the IAF realistically will opt for Rafales, in terms of F-16s for PAF, new builds might be iffy, however, the Indians and Lockheed believe the F-21 is superior to the F-16 Block-72(which, it kind of is in some aspects however its effectively a rebadged F-16 to clear up its image in India after balakot- this can be kind of seen by 2 ways, LM saying its nicer than Block 52s which the Indians claimed to shoot down and its also superior to the supposed mainstay of the PAF) so the Americans could pull a whole Malaysia-Singapore thing where they arm both sides, just one side is favoured a little more. In terms of used F-16 though, there should be little to no objection from US in PAF picking up used low hour Euro airframes and then down the line slapping SLEP kits or even Upgrades at some point in the future.

In terms of Russian gear, i am firmly in the camp that they are not fit to fight in modern battlefields, atleast, in the air, Russia suffers from decades of underinvestment in its aviation sector. IMO any Russian gear without suitable modifications (primarily Chinese avionics/missiles) should not be considered, at all.

 

[peagle]

I think i was unclear/there has been a misinterpretation.

I was referring to the Mirage V's from Egypt, those have been upgraded to the Horus standard, which includes the RDY-3, the same radar present on Moroccan F-1s and a derivative of the M2K-5's RDY-2 (which the IAF operates).

In terms of the MMRCA bid, the IAF realistically will opt for Rafales, in terms of F-16s for PAF, new builds might be iffy, however, the Indians and Lockheed believe the F-21 is superior to the F-16 Block-72(which, it kind of is in some aspects however its effectively a rebadged F-16 to clear up its image in India after balakot- this can be kind of seen by 2 ways, LM saying its nicer than Block 52s which the Indians claimed to shoot down and its also superior to the supposed mainstay of the PAF) so the Americans could pull a whole Malaysia-Singapore thing where they arm both sides, just one side is favoured a little more. In terms of used F-16 though, there should be little to no objection from US in PAF picking up used low hour Euro airframes and then down the line slapping SLEP kits or even Upgrades at some point in the future.

In terms of Russian gear, i am firmly in the camp that they are not fit to fight in modern battlefields, atleast, in the air, Russia suffers from decades of underinvestment in its aviation sector. IMO any Russian gear without suitable modifications (primarily Chinese avionics/missiles) should not be considered, at all.

I would agree with you regarding the Russian quality issues, but we don't have to buy into them lock stock and barrel. We've purchased helicopters because they were the mostly suitably available for our requirements, and acquired their anti tank missiles with some woodoo magic, I think we still don't know how we got those missiles, unless I am unaware, also the engine on the JF17.
The options do open up, and we can pick and chose. So, less reliance on trigger happy sanctions team and more room for new players, I think should payoff in the long term.

 

[ali_raza]

I think i was unclear/there has been a misinterpretation.

I was referring to the Mirage V's from Egypt, those have been upgraded to the Horus standard, which includes the RDY-3, the same radar present on Moroccan F-1s and a derivative of the M2K-5's RDY-2 (which the IAF operates).

In terms of the MMRCA bid, the IAF realistically will opt for Rafales, in terms of F-16s for PAF, new builds might be iffy, however, the Indians and Lockheed believe the F-21 is superior to the F-16 Block-72(which, it kind of is in some aspects however its effectively a rebadged F-16 to clear up its image in India after balakot- this can be kind of seen by 2 ways, LM saying its nicer than Block 52s which the Indians claimed to shoot down and its also superior to the supposed mainstay of the PAF) so the Americans could pull a whole Malaysia-Singapore thing where they arm both sides, just one side is favoured a little more. In terms of used F-16 though, there should be little to no objection from US in PAF picking up used low hour Euro airframes and then down the line slapping SLEP kits or even Upgrades at some point in the future.

In terms of Russian gear, i am firmly in the camp that they are not fit to fight in modern battlefields, atleast, in the air, Russia suffers from decades of underinvestment in its aviation sector. IMO any Russian gear without suitable modifications (primarily Chinese avionics/missiles) should not be considered, at all.

horus have rc400 radars
rdy3 is rafale radar

 

[Akh1112]

horus have rc400 radars
rdy3 is rafale radar

RDY-3 is Mirage radar, RBE-2/AA is Rafale's radar.

I would agree with you regarding the Russian quality issues, but we don't have to buy into them lock stock and barrel. We've purchased helicopters because they were the mostly suitably available for our requirements, and acquired their anti tank missiles with some woodoo magic, I think we still don't know how we got those missiles, unless I am unaware, also the engine on the JF17.
The options do open up, and we can pick and chose. So, less reliance on trigger happy sanctions team and more room for new players, I think should payoff in the long term.

i was referring to a2a platforms which is where the main issue lies, especially since they are long term purchases

 

[ali_raza]

RDY-3 is Mirage radar, RBE-2/AA is Rafale's radar.

i was referring to a2a platforms which is where the main issue lies, especially since they are long term purchases

last i checked horus had rc400 radars capable of firing mica ir missiles
ironically this was almost exact package we wanted for jft in the beginning

 

[Akh1112]

last i checked horus had rc400 radars capable of firing mica ir missiles
ironically this was almost exact package we wanted for jft in the beginning

Yep, they are BVR capable via MICA, however, its quite a dated system with glaring vulnerabilities as seen on the 27th for modern combat. However, the MICA is a formidable missile and id take one any day over an R-77(RVV-AE)