Cold Start Doctrine - Pakistani Response. By Jhungary

[Genesis]

Lol.
Here we goes another funny posts.
I didnt claim that Pak forces are defensless. They have also tanks and other things.But what about its numbers.
FYI we also began the induction of MK 2 and already have T 90 and induction will increase around 1000 in numbers.
We are talking artillery systems .We are manufacturing large chunks of Prahar and Pinaka 2 with extended range these are also the part of our artillery wing.
Now LCH will begin its induction within 2 years.If there is emergency situation they will speed up the entire modernization.
We have a good economy for that.
Who told you that Apache is only for your side of the borders?And talks is already going to increase its numbers.

Pakistan also have systems.But you should check its quantity.
Same as I said you are trying for a conclusion on a subject with zero knowledge.
You have no idea about Indo Pak border geography .So dont absurd claims unless you want to ridicule yourselves.
Humves and its copies are not applicable in hilly terrain of LoC and cant ensure its performance in desert .
AFAIK even US dont modernized their armerd forces a weapon like MCIWS till now but they are aiming for it with Scar

really, it's funny. You have proven essentially nothing. Yet, continuously calling my post absurd. You know you can add more facts into this conversation at anytime.

You have 600 something T-90 and a hundred or was it 2 of Arjun, Pakistan has about 500 Al Kalid.

In terms of missiles Pakistan has no shortage of that, at least in this particular category.

LCH isn't in the Indian army and within 2 years still requires a further 6-10 years for the full 120 number. In case of a 6 day war, you are going to ramp up production and make a difference during that war? Now who's absurd.

Apache, from what I read will be given to the new mountain strike corp, could be, wrong, either way, it's 26 or so, a addition, but not so life changing now that Pakistan has heavy attack helicopters of their own in the Russian Mi-35.

I do know of Pakistani quantity, it is you that need to check Indian quantity, because you don't have as many as you think you do.

Zero knowledge, that's interesting, why don't you stop with the personal attacks, and start bring in some facts, cause right now, what exactly have you disproved? I said MK 2 not in service and it's not, I said LCH not in service and you agree, I said Apache on our border, not in service yet, so it doesn't really matter what I say, it's not here.

Granted I don't know too much of its geography, but many, not sure if including you, have said it's a desert enviroment, and now it's hills, either way, if its hills, you are going to drop heavy tanks on top of it? What does it matter the tank number then, if it's both, then Humvee definitely play a role, all of the Desert countries have a massive fleet of Humvee, and it can't guarantee performance in desert?! It's not perfect, but it's about as good as for its role.

But even assuming what you said is true, what are you going to do, walk your troops all the way into Pakistan or ride in the back of a truck that has about as good a chance of lasting as the Humvee, but with essentially no way of fast reaction.

As to Scar, a very good weapon, as is the Indian variant, but it's not next gen. UK bought Euro Fighter too, doesn't make it fifth gen like the F-35. Everybody agrees OICW is the next gen of rifles, I didn't make up this designation.

 

[Hellfire]

First, we don't have too much that we disagree, mostly due to misunderstanding. Second, our biggest disagreements are roads, and thus this element of "surprise."

The first line, yeah maybe so. But the one highlighted .. I told you, the doctrinal thoughts are apparent and open. Meant for conveyance of a message, which has been taken by the other side. I am saying there will be no surprise, instead Pakistan will be aware of our troop placement all the time. It is the nature of strike which will be across the whole of International Boundary that will be slightly different. Since the earlier denomination "holding" or the defensive corps have been upgraded to be "pivot" corps i.e. move from a defensive posturing to an offensive posturing in matter of hours, you have to accept that the upgradation in terms of firepower augmentation, mechanization and force multipliers in terms of close air support, recce and surveillance elements, AD troops for overhead cover, additional troops, special forces etc have been done. And while devising a doctrine, you must also concede that no enemy is a fool. If you have raised these points, then apart from the fact that you are on a fishing expedition for more info, which is classified and unavailable in public domain, accept it as the fact that India must have catered to same points of mobility and logistics of war which you have raised and made the necessary arrangements in terms of advance stockpiling of stores and ammunition already since the troops are already present at their fixed locations before war and the earmarking of the whole logistics has been done as a routine planning. Until and unless a pre-emptive strike by PAF takes place immediately after the trigger for Indian reaction (say a LeT linked attack which may force the GoI to initiate military strikes) ... targeting these prepositioned stockpiles are in itself an open declaration of war by Pakistan. Then if you are premising that the Pakistanis will launch an attack immediately upon execution of a likely trigger for Indian attack ... then you are way off. The troops, along with their war stock and additional reserves, as of today, inclusive of FOL, rations and ammunition, are positioned and even Pakistan may be aware of them in advance for most sites (although not all). So which logistical supply are you talking about? We are planning for no ingress beyond 10-15 kms from the international boundary ... and 10 -15 kms with desert tracks is hardly a 30 mins movement. our stores are just next to the desired areas, so until and unless Pakistan plans to paradrop about a corps worth of Special forces to hunt and take them out (before even commencement of Indian action), by all means you are way off. Also, the mere fact with this theory of Pakistan pre-emption is that even they do not know what might be our threshold. Mumbai was a disaster. US would have attacked while Indian politicians sat on their soft behinds making stupid noises of 'surgical' 'therepeutic' etc etc strikes which never even occurred. The best part is, with the new government in place, now Pakistan is also unsure about what the threshold is.

While Tanks may be able to roll on where ever, oil trucks, and other vehicles will have a hard time with it. Off road driving is a challenge to the driver and the vehicle itself.

I have personal experience with off road, and all the reports I seen with regards to fast mobilization, damages to the vehicles, and other accidents, along with many other things will happen. This is a big limiting factor to the places a force can move effectively.

Logistic Support Area. Read the available Indian military logistics material and you will come across this funny term. Similar caches are already pre-staged. And how much of a problem will that be, when the advance is to be only 10-15 kms into enemy territory? How difficult is the calculation of logistics planning in such a scenario? When you may have catered to a certain significant percentage of your attacking forces being badly mauled and rendered unfit for further operations after an initial contact with the enemy? In logistics, as am sure you are aware, you cater for 100% effective strength, stock for a lesser percentage and on ground end up with a significantly depleted numbers to supply. This in addition to catering for losses of stocks in stores/transit/due to enemy action.

What makes you think you are talking to a novice here? You may have your experiences, I may have mine. And the difference is, I have been to the terrain while you may have not.

So the Indian response won't be a Nazi attacking Ukraine and by passing Maginot line.

A poor analogy , I agree.

Name something that your ground forces have that Pakistan don't.

Er, the ability to concentrate superior numbers in terms of both manpower and material???

As to nuclear strike, US didn't sign on the dotted line either regarding first strike, doesn't mean they can be rolled over..

Yup communication gap. I said Pakistan also understands the conventional disparity and hence has first strike policy. They expect to not be able to hold off to a conventional attack by India. And cater for amphibious assault too, across the southern seaboard. We have the assets and force projection capability now.

 

[SrNair]

really, it's funny. You have proven essentially nothing. Yet, continuously calling my post absurd. You know you can add more facts into this conversation at anytime.

You have 600 something T-90 and a hundred or was it 2 of Arjun, Pakistan has about 500 Al Kalid.

In terms of missiles Pakistan has no shortage of that, at least in this particular category.

LCH isn't in the Indian army and within 2 years still requires a further 6-10 years for the full 120 number. In case of a 6 day war, you are going to ramp up production and make a difference during that war? Now who's absurd.

Apache, from what I read will be given to the new mountain strike corp, could be, wrong, either way, it's 26 or so, a addition, but not so life changing now that Pakistan has heavy attack helicopters of their own in the Russian Mi-35.

I do know of Pakistani quantity, it is you that need to check Indian quantity, because you don't have as many as you think you do.

Zero knowledge, that's interesting, why don't you stop with the personal attacks, and start bring in some facts, cause right now, what exactly have you disproved? I said MK 2 not in service and it's not, I said LCH not in service and you agree, I said Apache on our border, not in service yet, so it doesn't really matter what I say, it's not here.

Granted I don't know too much of its geography, but many, not sure if including you, have said it's a desert enviroment, and now it's hills, either way, if its hills, you are going to drop heavy tanks on top of it? What does it matter the tank number then, if it's both, then Humvee definitely play a role, all of the Desert countries have a massive fleet of Humvee, and it can't guarantee performance in desert?! It's not perfect, but it's about as good as for its role.

But even assuming what you said is true, what are you going to do, walk your troops all the way into Pakistan or ride in the back of a truck that has about as good a chance of lasting as the Humvee, but with essentially no way of fast reaction.

As to Scar, a very good weapon, as is the Indian variant, but it's not next gen. UK bought Euro Fighter too, doesn't make it fifth gen like the F-35. Everybody agrees OICW is the next gen of rifles, I didn't make up this designation.

Well what about upgraded T 72 ?Ring any bells.It isupgraded in such a way that it has night vision equipments and can fight a modern war.I can pull out those conventional numbers from net.But I dont need to and I dont have .AfAIK it is around 2000 .
We already have 125 MKI and already began the induction of 125 MK2 .Will increase its quantity in coming years.
We have heavy duty TATA vehicles and also modernized systems for tropp movements and they have good performance than the Humvees.


It was not a personal attack but it is afact.
You dpnt have any idea about Indo Pak border. Do you know the amount of drill conducting in that area by Indian Army?
Last time I heard that ,According the commander in there we can mobilize a forces that is equivalent to quantity that we mobilized in2002 within 48 hrs.But in 2002that time for that we took 1 month.


Entire CSD is based on our conventional superiority both men and materials.

Pak have 500Al khalid and we have T 90 and Arjun both will have in numbers around 800 numbers even this time .Both of them are quite advanced thanAl khalid.

This why said you judging all these on the basis of some half baked data.Talks are already going in South Block about the further prchasing of Apaches.

Mi 35 .
We already have that system.And we know its merit and demerits of it.How many of them will have ?35,50?
By that time we will have 120+ LCH .Specially designed for high altitude warfare can climb more than Mi 35 specially suited for Kargil type environment .Only Apaches have that much specs.

I already told you ypu can google about our armaments and systems of strike corps and Aviation corps.

 

[jhungary]

I think you are mistaken here about India's objective.

There are two type of war that India may fight with Pakistan, a final war which would be fought with intent of dismemberment of Pakistan and which is neither an object of discussion here nor will it be fought in current situation.

Second is limited war where cold start doctrine comes into play.

A limited Indo-Pak war from perspective of India would be a punitive exercise taken up by Indian Armed forces and primary objective of any limited war would be to degrade Pakistani tactical and strategic capabilities ( to some extent Industrial too).Holding of land would be secondary.

Think about it. What would India gain in return by bartering Pakistani land? A promise of Pakistanis not sending terrorists into India! That promise is not worth the paper it would be written upon. Pakistan could renege on that promise as soon as it get it's land back.

Threat to stop water from Indus and it's tributaries would be more potent than a war, if India were to decide coercion route in resolving Terrorism related matters.

Well, I don't know, but the wording in most document regarding the doctrine have been using the term "Holding Attack"

And you can barter a lot of thing with a piece of enemy lands, buffer zone is one of them. The Brits used to take land from a country and return it to them in place of a buffer zone to be establish in another part of the same country. There are numerous example, from war of 1812 where Brits agree to hand Detroit back to the US in order to establish an Indian territories in the west for buffer between Canada and United State. Or the Israeli occupation of Sinai peninsular and return them in order to gain a piece of buffer zone in west bank...

I am just trying to interpret what I was given, maybe you guys have a different meaning for holding attack, I don't know...

The surrounding area is worth more. You have to understand that Lahore is not a stand alone city with no urban centers around it. The mere presence of Indian Army in the Punjabi heartland of Pakistan will be unacceptable. Why enter a city when we can just sit on our side of border (in case of Lahore) and pound it day and night while dominating the adjoining areas and denying relief by enemy forces? I know you will now go into a tangent and try and enact a war on this line itself by responding with potential moves by Pakistan to counter the point. But have merely raised this point as the fact remains that 10 - 15 kms of territory across board if held, is sufficient enough as a bargain counter. If you think our aims are 50 kms, it is wrong

I think we have a misunderstanding of the term "City" and probably Lahore is not a good example either.

In Australia, urban and most suburban city developed close to one and other, Virtually one city limits end mean the start of another city limits. However, if you compare urban city to another urban city (say for example, City of Sydney and City of Wollongong) then you would see a chain of land that's have nothing in it and not yet developed

In the same analogy I am not talking about land that was within the city limits, thus still within the edge of urban area but far away from city centre (like you said 15-20 km away from downtown Lahore) I am talking about the outskirt of town. which would be thinly defended. Where as within city limits, even tho it's far from the city center, it would still be heavily defended.

And on general term, in the US Army, we can push about 3 km a day if we are fighing urban warfare to a determined enemy.

Who is your wife? Some kind of specialist in warfare in Indian Subcontinent?

My wife was a Major with the Swedish Military, she have a master of military science and a PhD in Far East Politic and is a junior warplanner with the Swedish Defence Force.

Precisely. It is dissuasive.

indeed

It is bloody ambiguous. In spite of our screaming we don't need to mobilize our troops and equipment to fight, you still doubt it is possible. How much more ambiguous you want? You want the whole battle plan? Well here it is .... we will hit at all points that Pakistan has called as demarcation boundary ... in all directions.

Ambiguous means you have several different plan treating the same type of situation, so the enemy could never guess which one you are going for.

In case of the United States Army, we usually have several plan to implement if being dealt with a certain single situation. Say after a 9/11 style terrorist attack, we may choose to bomb the Taliban from our bases in South Asia or ME, we may work out a plan to insert Special Force and attack from different angle. We may also send in special force to train the local rebel for uprising, or we may send in normal troop itself.

Being a doctrine, you train to react what you are dealt with, not to follow the doctrine into some direction. Indeed, if you are talking about a Mobile Strike group attack, you can launch them anyway and anywhere, it is ambiguous in a tactical sense, but since you fixated on a Mobile Strike, it is not ambiguous in a strategic sense.

Not sure if you understand what I says.

We accept their likelihood of employment of nukes at tactical level. We will reply in such a scenario for sure in proportion and much more (as per assessment of local commanders/command chain) .... the targeting will be with tactical considerations only ... and strike will be meant to be dissuasive .. or not ... depends on what the Pakistanis will want to do.

Hence I said in many post, I do not want to discuss the use of nuclear weapon, that would ascent the discuss into another level, the "Sums of all fear" factors.

On the contrary, we will sit outside cities and hold the ground. We expect the West and International community to come and intervene diplomatically. The Pakistani government would also want to end hostilities earliest as India will be willing to withdraw troops in return for the settling of problem of the time ... who would not want to agree to a ceasefire with this line?

In war, every object worth something, yes, it's Indian Provocative to see how much objective is done versus how much they are worth, so I probably cannot say anything or not in a position to say anything if Indian military satisfied with sitting outside the city and hold their ground.

Just so you know, operation like this does not comes cheap, both money, and manpower.

I am sure you are right on this aspect. It is flawed ... it has the chance of going nuclear, but then .. so be it ..... and NASR etc ... we have the capability too ...mind you ..... and willingness enough to use it as per our declared nuclear doctrine

It's is flawed not because of the potential to go nuclear. If two nuclear power are at war, EVERYTHING you do would have the potential to go nuclear, hence again, the "Sums of all fear" factor applied.

The doctrine is flawed as to you let the enemy (Pakistan) know many aspect of your operation before the operation actual gone forward.

 

[farhan_9909]

Due to less depth against India,Pakistan has the advantage of much rapid mobilization as compared to india

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary 'Cold Start Doctrine - Pakistani response' !

I knew it, you are one of us !

@Mrs.Hungary - Ma'am stop commenting on the CSD and tell me 'where is the apple pie you promised me to bake for me' So many days and not a whiff of the apple pie; is this how a Big Sister treats her Pakistani brother ?

On Topic:

We can mobilize much sooner than the Indians can; so far as I know our mechanization is more than theirs and we're right next to the border anyhow. They've already tried mobilizing in '01/02 and at the backdrop of the Mumbai Attacks; we were there at the borders before them.

The whole or even the majority of the Indo-Pak border can't be opened up because the Northern parts of it are mountainous areas and are heavily......heavily entrenched. The North-Eastern parts are ill-suited for Armor, are heavily laced with hardened defenses and aren't that much suited for heavy troop movements either.

In either of the above simple troop movement would not see them through our defenses; 'defenses' which have been prepared with the hindsight of more than 3 wars, numerous skirmishes and a heightened state of military preparedness for the past many decades.

The South-Eastern parts are where the tank battles are projected to happen specifically in the Deserts of Southern Punjab and Northern Sindh and thats where our Armor is concentrated at.

The kind of mobilization that CSD would require needs an impressive array of artillery; ours still remains considerably better than theirs especially in the self-propelled domain.

Our forces are not 500,000. Thats just the Army; its another 450,000 paramilitary forces who are no pushover considering that the FC (which is a part of the same) are the ones battling out with the TTP and have now been battle hardened considerably due to the baptismal that they've received during this War on Terror and have been remodeled into a light fighting force perhaps near to the US Army Rangers during the tenure of Lt.Gen Tariq Khan.

Add to that the Civil Defense Force and a 500,000 strong Army reserve and we have an impressive quantitative number as well.

It certainly doesn't hurt that India's main Forward Operating Basis are a stone's throw away from the Border just as ours are and the range of Nasr doesn't become a limiting factor in this. Nor does the array of stand-off weapons we've got to exploit this further.

If by some miracle the Indians manage to break through our lines and capture (say!) Lahore which is a big if considering the minuscule time line you've given; they'd have street clearances and infighting to content which would make their ability to hold on to the city, even in a short-term, extremely difficult.

Besides our whole philosophy of offense-defense was conceived keeping in mind that in a small window (a matter of days) we can enjoy numerical superiority or at least parity over the Indian and for that work we need to get onto war with our feet running which means we'd get to the Borders quicker come what may. That is the reason behind the mechanization of our infantry, our paramilitary forces manning the borders, our army being just a few kms behind them, our forward operating basis being close to the border areas and us being drilling for prompt response since the '80s.

That response and the response to subsequent developments has been conceived and validated through the 5 Azm-e-Nau exercises.

So in short; 'Bring it On' Baby !

Plus you're forgetting that the Pakistanis have the Greatest Weapon of All - Armstrong the Indomitable; I don't know how to shoot a gun but I'm good with my fists !

@Xeric can add more !

@Xeric waisee Bhai seh kiya naraazgiii keh itnii silent treatment ?



The Area surrounding Lahore ? You do realize that Lahore is a city of more than 10 million inhabitants and the area surrounding Lahore is pretty much up till the Border with India ? I mean literally up till a few kms from the Border.

My buddy's university is pretty darn near the border !

Besides Lahore is my city; we will not let the Heart of Pakistan fall no matter the costs !

Heck I'd make Leonidus and his 300's sacrifice look like a poorly choreographed play of muscled men in their undies, once I put my own 'Defense of Lahore' in motion and etch my name in the History Books !

If it ever comes to pass; who knows Jhungary Jrs. would be telling their school fellas about their brave Uncle Armstrong from across the seas !

lol.....most of the point I have already covered from the response above, beside the Mrs Jungary comment. And for some reason, she now hate you lol

 

[Armstrong]

lol.....most of the point I have already covered from the response above, beside the Mrs Jungary comment. And for some reason, she now hate you lol

What ?

Nooooooooooooooooooooo !

Mrs.Hungary I was just kidding; don't hate me !

Its alright if you don't know how to bake an apple pie !

Just kidding again !

Wait @jhungary did you say that the Mrs. was a Major in the Swedish Army ?

That is....so...so...very cool !

My respects and my utmost admiration for the lady !

Ma'am; the Father of my Nation said: There are two powers in the world. One is the sword and the other the pen. However there is a third power greater than both, that of the women.

I wish more and more women in my part of the world were as proactive as you.

 

[Hellfire]

Due to less depth against India,Pakistan has the advantage of much rapid mobilization as compared to india

At the same time greater susceptibility. Your lines of communication will be susceptible to a greater degree. Your point is agreed to .. but then I have been saying, stocking on Indian side is forward and will not be relying on any replenishment till initial 72-96 hours. Also, our offensive operations will be carried out by the already stationed troops without any new inductions.

Well, I don't know, but the wording in most document regarding the doctrine have been using the term "Holding Attack"[/QUTE]

Incorrect.

I am just trying to interpret what I was given, maybe you guys have a different meaning for holding attack, I don't know...

We are playing with words like proactive defense etc etc. Bloody diplomatic niceties. It is all bullc@#$ at best. It is full on offensive.

I think we have a misunderstanding of the term "City" and probably Lahore is not a good example either.

In Australia, urban and most suburban city developed close to one and other, Virtually one city limits end mean the start of another city limits. However, if you compare urban city to another urban city (say for example, City of Sydney and City of Wollongong) then you would see a chain of land that's have nothing in it and not yet developed

In the same analogy I am not talking about land that was within the city limits, thus still within the edge of urban area but far away from city centre (like you said 15-20 km away from downtown Lahore) I am talking about the outskirt of town. which would be thinly defended. Where as within city limits, even tho it's far from the city center, it would still be heavily defended.

Oh we are talking the same. But the point is .. for example of Lahore, it is barely 32 kms from Amritsar, our main population center. So even 5 - 7 kms will be too much for Pakistan. We are not intending to enter any city or its suburbs, only deny access t the peripheries in such a case.

And on general term, in the US Army, we can push about 3 km a day if we are fighing urban warfare to a determined enemy.

Like your figure of 3 kms a day. Where has the figure come from? Is it based on the combat seen in Iraq? Then it is a dangerous figure to rely on as that was a decimated army and irregular force which was fought by US. In a major population center which is densely populated, the probability of even US reaching this target is highly suspect until and unless your plan of attack calls for flattening of the whole city with massive artillery and air power deployment. Anyways, what I saw of US troops of 14 cavalry training with Indian troops in India, nowhere was this figure touted as being sacrosanct.

My wife was a Major with the Swedish Military, she have a master of military science and a PhD in Far East Politic and is a junior warplanner with the Swedish Defence Force.[?QUOTE]

Impressive. My compliments to her. But how does that qualify as an authority? And do you really think you are talking to a newbie or an ignorant guy here?

Ambiguous means you have several different plan treating the same type of situation, so the enemy could never guess which one you are going for.

In case of the United States Army, we usually have several plan to implement if being dealt with a certain single situation. Say after a 9/11 style terrorist attack, we may choose to bomb the Taliban from our bases in South Asia or ME, we may work out a plan to insert Special Force and attack from different angle. We may also send in special force to train the local rebel for uprising, or we may send in normal troop itself.

Being a doctrine, you train to react what you are dealt with, not to follow the doctrine into some direction. Indeed, if you are talking about a Mobile Strike group attack, you can launch them anyway and anywhere, it is ambiguous in a tactical sense, but since you fixated on a Mobile Strike, it is not ambiguous in a strategic sense.

Not sure if you understand what I says.

Let me assure your, you are not talking to a wannabe soldier/defence expert/novice. I know my stuff. Been there, done that. The biggest flaw in your argument is you are drawing parallel to US army, which has limited your appreciation of the topic so far, and also that you are failing to get that the troops which shall be used for the strike are in normal peace time deployed in areas in proximity to the international boundaries. Their weapons/stocks of rations, FOL, ammunition, equipment etc are already there ... nothing needs to be inducted afresh for waging a war. Additional troops in terms of the strike corps have different areas to operate and different tasking. We are in a position to achieve the objectives with the present dispensation of troops itself without any large or small scale movement of troops or materials over distances. Cold Start means, starting from from the position of this moment .....

The doctrine is flawed as to you let the enemy (Pakistan) know many aspect of your operation before the operation actual gone forward.

It is dissuasive, hence known. Our objectives are multiple and fluid in nature. Just like the battle space that we shall be facing the moment offensive tasking is undertaken. . Your view that the same is flawed, is your view.. Regards

 

[acid rain]

Sir,

You have been given wrong information about pak generals---. We were making nuc threats till 2007 openly---not since then. Things have changed a lot----.

This war will be fought on indian land---there is no east Pakistan to worry about----there are no holds barred---you start the cold start at your discretion and we will finish it on our terms----.

This time---we already know there is no going to uncle Sam for us----. But you will have to make the run.

The problem this time is that you have a lots of uncle sams money tied up---actually you have a lots of western world's money tied up----with any kind of war----you are going to ruin their economies by crashing their stock markets----. The west is going to suffer more---ad th cannot accept a war---either a cold start or a warm strike.

You cannot be more wrong sir,

If what you say is true - and it is to a big extent because it makes more sense for the world to keep India in strong existence than pakistan alive as a liability.

 

[Genesis]

So which logistical supply are you talking about? We are planning for no ingress beyond 10-15 kms from the international boundary ... and 10 -15 kms with desert tracks is hardly a 30 mins movement. our stores are just next to the desired areas, so until and unless Pakistan plans to paradrop about a corps worth of Special forces to hunt and take them out (before even commencement of Indian action), by all means you are way off. Also, the mere fact with this theory of Pakistan pre-emption is that even they do not know what might be our threshold. Mumbai was a disaster. US would have attacked while Indian politicians sat on their soft behinds making stupid noises of 'surgical' 'therepeutic' etc etc strikes which never even occurred. The best part is, with the new government in place, now Pakistan is also unsure about what the threshold is.

If there's one thing I learnt about logistics, after these years following the military, is that almost nothing goes according to plan.

Though if all you need to do is 10-15, then it's even more apparent where you will launch the attack, as worthwhile targets within that range must be very limited. Though we agree on this fact, that it's not a surprise.

But we differ on the logistics, I seen enough Chinese reports of operations, and nothing ever goes according to plan, that's why every few years, we have new APCs, and new everything to help with it.

You are talking moving thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of troops, that's never going to go smoothly, for anyone.

Unless India can catch Pakistan off guard, I don't think India has much of a chance of achieving the type of victory, India thinks it's suppose to.

Er, the ability to concentrate superior numbers in terms of both manpower and material???

I'm not going to say you can't, but based on what? This particular scenario talks Pakistani initiative, which means about few hundred thousand will be ready to fight.

I'm not dissing India here, but no country can be always combat ready, even the SEALs had to retrain before shipped off to Kuwait after 9/11, and they are special forces.

Before Desert Storm, there was Desert Shield, where Americans trained for the up coming operation.

You are assuming too many things will go according to plan, and in fact, almost none will.

Well what about upgraded T 72 ?Ring any bells.It isupgraded in such a way that it has night vision equipments and can fight a modern war.I can pull out those conventional numbers from net.But I dont need to and I dont have .AfAIK it is around 2000 .
We already have 125 MKI and already began the induction of 125 MK2 .Will increase its quantity in coming years.
We have heavy duty TATA vehicles and also modernized systems for tropp movements and they have good performance than the Humvees.
I think you are overestimating how well equipped Indian troops are, in a general sense. First T-72 is not that good even the vastly upgraded Russian ones.

With our military expenditures, even at 130 billion, it is not enough to buy enough for the army and the final deadline for fully modern ground forces is 2020, that's 6 years away, and that's all the while spending far more.

The Pakistani tank is a cousin of our type 99, and thus 96, this is the difference.

Look at the way T-72 compares to a real modern tank. I'm not going to commend on Arjun, never seen it in action before. Maybe next competition we will see it? Hopefully yes.

It was not a personal attack but it is afact.
You dpnt have any idea about Indo Pak border. Do you know the amount of drill conducting in that area by Indian Army?
Last time I heard that ,According the commander in there we can mobilize a forces that is equivalent to quantity that we mobilized in2002 within 48 hrs.But in 2002that time for that we took 1 month.

Do you know the amount of drills conducted by any army? I wouldn't put too much stock into what's being said, until we get on the battlefield, neither China, India or anyone else can claim anything.

Even if the thing you said about 48 hours, not sure what that meant, but even if it meant you can do it now in 48 instead of a month, that doesn't mean it will happen every time, even if it happened every time in training.

Entire CSD is based on our conventional superiority both men and materials.

Pak have 500Al khalid and we have T 90 and Arjun both will have in numbers around 800 numbers even this time .Both of them are quite advanced thanAl khalid.

This why said you judging all these on the basis of some half baked data.Talks are already going in South Block about the further prchasing of Apaches.

They could be, but how so? We have seen T-72 in action, we have seen Type 96 in action, a cousin of Al Kalid, but have we seen T-90 or Arjun in action? If we have, let me know.

All in all, any concrete evidence that it is in fact better? Not just because you said it is. I'm not deducting marks off T-90 because Russia didn't get any, simply because that alone is not a reason to say it's good or bad.

Mi 35 .
We already have that system.And we know its merit and demerits of it.How many of them will have ?35,50?
By that time we will have 120+ LCH .Specially designed for high altitude warfare can climb more than Mi 35 specially suited for Kargil type environment .Only Apaches have that much specs.

I already told you ypu can google about our armaments and systems of strike corps and Aviation corps.

Mi-35 is competent, and I did say they don't have to worry about it for the next 4-6 years, I didn't say forever. As of now, you don't have LCH, or Apache.

I did see the Indian army aviation, and it's not as much as you think.

India Military Strength

Let me know how accurate this is, before I keep going. That and Wikipedia.

 

[jhungary]

What ?

Nooooooooooooooooooooo !

Mrs.Hungary I was just kidding; don't hate me !

Its alright if you don't know how to bake an apple pie !

Just kidding again !

Wait @jhungary did you say that the Mrs. was a Major in the Swedish Army ?

That is....so...so...very cool !

My respects and my utmost admiration for the lady !

Ma'am; the Father of my Nation said: There are two powers in the world. One is the sword and the other the pen. However there is a third power greater than both, that of the women.

I wish more and more women in my part of the world were as proactive as you.

lol yeah, and she is really hating you a lot lol....and i am not q woman lol otherwise it will make my relationship a lot more interesting...

 

[MastanKhan]

You cannot be more wrong sir,

If what you say is true - and it is to a big extent because it makes more sense for the world to keep India in strong existence than pakistan alive as a liability.

Hi,

When it comes down to economic meltdown---the countries would be looking for their wellbeing and anything that gets in between---would have a problem.

The world would also be getting tired of Indians getting their jobs and if Pakistan can market it----it can start a world wide campaign against Indians taking local jobs------

 

[acid rain]

Hi,

When it comes down to economic meltdown---the countries would be looking for their wellbeing and anything that gets in between---would have a problem.

The world would also be getting tired of Indians getting their jobs and if Pakistan can market it----it can start a world wide campaign against Indians taking local jobs------

What's the benefit of being a nuisance ? It would have made sense if you would have aspired to compete rather than suggesting an effort for trying to undermine what many pakistanis themselves are dependent on. Something like the foolish woodcutter chopping the branch he's sitting on.

I think every sane pakistani working abroad would cringe at this idea.

As for the economy part we internally are a huge market for the world, and are in the process of consolidating our manufacturing sector. Once that happens you should suggest starting a worldwide campaign about the loss of manufacturing jobs.

 

[MastanKhan]

What's the benefit of being a nuisance ? It would have made sense if you would have aspired to compete rather than suggesting an effort for trying to undermine what many pakistanis themselves are dependent on. Something like the foolish woodcutter chopping the branch he's sitting on.

I think every sane pakistani working abroad would cringe at this idea.

As for the economy part we internally are a huge market for the world, and are in the process of consolidating our manufacturing sector. Once that happens you should suggest starting a worldwide campaign about the loss of manufacturing jobs.

Pakistanis are not in the limelight for taking jobs---Indians are----.

 

[wolfschanzze]

They do have threshold low or they pretend to have it low to counter much bigger threat - that's my point.

They act like they have low threshold in front of everyone,if you notice in a street fight a person who yell "Let me at them" and is being withheld by others around him are the least who want to fight, they only put up that facade to look brave. Once if those people stopping them free him and say do what you want,Then we have two outcomes
1) That person will back down and make peace.
2)He will try to fight only to be mauled by a bigger and better opponent and then he will learn his lesson (Scenario 2 has already happened 4 times) and they have psychological scars about it especially the 1971 war part where we broke their East Pakistan and made it Bangladesh, that is why they opened up Khalistan and Kashmir fronts and failed miserably.
When you fight another person (unknown) you are full of confidence,but if you are beaten 4 times by the same person, your morale and confidence runs low if you face the same opponent again.
So next time as a fighter you will train to push your limits and avenge the four losses,while the opponent if he in his ego lets down his guard thinking this is easy as a cake, will invite lucky punches which can upset the game.
This is the precise Psychological state of Pakistan Army and we only need to exploit that Psychological factor. We need to be calm ,cold and be prepared as its our first fight,we have the advantage of Psy ops so use it effectively in war.
If they act like they have low threshold,we should only grin a wicked smile which implies , we will erase them from the map kinda threshold for any slightest provocation.
I hope that makes the Psy ops in war thing clear.
We have an advantage ,exploit it!
At the same time we need to give them a ray of hope be sympathetic to its civilians so that it doesnt become hilter youth fighting for its existence, once they are given assurance of safe passage watch how quickly the support for the army and fighting dwindles.,,if you push even a cat to a corner it will fight back for its life.
In that scenario, it would suit us to balkanize the enemy into many nations and leave it that way.

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