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Cold Start Doctrine - Pakistani Response. By Jhungary

I doubt we need to capture cities to make it work.most of the times,Cities aren't fortified positions.even then,one can simply bypass and cut off the city's access points to make it work.not every time,occupation is needed.

The goal for cold start is to gain land so India can use it to trade with pakistan for anything in the negotiation table.

What do you think worth more? Lahore or the area surrounding Lahore?

And you have to go in and secure the city, siege only work if you have months or years to do so not with a few days of operation
 
No, in Flat rolling planes, there is no need of Air supply. It is costly and a single goods train could deliver more ammunition that a 300 plane fleet. Also there are more than enough Indian cantonments within 100 Km of border.

Indo-Pak border is well connected by both Railways and Roadways, and a Train journey from Indore to Amritsar just take 16 hours.



No it does not include unpaved roads. They are not counted in any road statistics because they are not under jurisdiction of any authority.

And expressways are not synonymous with roads connecting urban centers.Probably only in China they are. Expressway means entry/exit controlled toll roads with higher speed limits. There are national highways, and state highways which connect Urban centers , apart from Expressways ( at least in India). Total length of such roads in India is 231160 Km which is more than double the length of Chinese expressways.And most of these highways are 4 laned.

Expressway does not give magical capacity to vehicles plying on it. It allows higher than normal speed by controlling access, thus reducing traffic. In war, every highway would be access controlled to allow faster military movement. Expressway is a civilian concept.

Though ignorent, he does have a valid point - why did our deployment take so long in 2002? - and CSD is exactly that. A strategy to quicken counter strike in case of a major terrorist attack linked to pakistan before international players move in to negotiate a drawdown.
 
The goal for cold start is to gain land so India can use it to trade with pakistan for anything in the negotiation table.

What do you think worth more? Lahore or the area surrounding Lahore?

And you have to go in and secure the city, siege only work if you have months or years to do so not with a few days of operation

the requirment is different from kursk and for CSD

German needs Nd wanted to engage the soviet armoured head on at some place, so they can weaken the soviet assault firc3, kursk is choosen for 2 reasons, 1, an attack on kursk would flatten the front line, mean you need less german troop to.defend against the soviet incursion 2 Area surround kursk is prime land for armored assault. The city of kursk is not of any importance for the german objective

Howevee, for cold start to work, indian need to occupy Pakistani city so they can barter on the negotiation table. You cannot hold the area surrounding lahore and hope to go get something out of the negotiation table.

that would mean they must attack and engage in Pakistani city, then thos3 city would become a serious strategic depth if pakistani decided to fight it out on urban warfare..

I think you are mistaken here about India's objective.

There are two type of war that India may fight with Pakistan, a final war which would be fought with intent of dismemberment of Pakistan and which is neither an object of discussion here nor will it be fought in current situation.

Second is limited war where cold start doctrine comes into play.

A limited Indo-Pak war from perspective of India would be a punitive exercise taken up by Indian Armed forces and primary objective of any limited war would be to degrade Pakistani tactical and strategic capabilities ( to some extent Industrial too).Holding of land would be secondary.

Think about it. What would India gain in return by bartering Pakistani land? A promise of Pakistanis not sending terrorists into India! That promise is not worth the paper it would be written upon. Pakistan could renege on that promise as soon as it get it's land back.

Threat to stop water from Indus and it's tributaries would be more potent than a war, if India were to decide coercion route in resolving Terrorism related matters.

Though ignorent, he does have a valid point - why did our deployment take so long in 2002? - and CSD is exactly that. A strategy to quicken counter strike in case of a major terrorist attack linked to pakistan before international players move in to negotiate a drawdown.


I do not think deployment time was too long because India did not have Airlift capability. No country, not even US, has capability to airlift 14 Corps. And travel time between Central India and Border by train is not too long. Border could still be reached within 12-24 hours from Central India. Most of lag in deployment time was due to mobilizing protocols.
 
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I think you are mistaken here about India's objective.

There are two type of war that India may fight with Pakistan, a final war which would be fought with intent of dismemberment of Pakistan and which is neither an object of discussion here nor will it be fought in current situation.

Second is limited war where cold start doctrine comes into play.

A limited Indo-Pak war from perspective of India would be a punitive exercise taken up by Indian Armed forces and primary objective of any limited war would be to degrade Pakistani tactical and strategic capabilities.Holding of land would be secondary.

Think about it. What would India gain in return by bartering Pakistani land? A promise of Pakistanis not sending terrorists into India! That promise is not worth the paper it would be written upon. Pakistan could renege on that promise as soon as it get it's land back.

Threat to stop water from Indus and it's tributaries would be more potent than a war, if India was to decide coercion route in resolving Terrorism related matters.




I do not think deployment time was too long because India did not have Airlift capability. No country, not even US, has capability to airlift 14 Corps. And travel time between Central India and Border by train is not too long. Border could still be reached within 12-24 hours from Central India. Most of lag in deployment time was due to mobilizing protocols.

It was a huge movement for a full scale engagement. And it took more than a month - meanwhile the US worked feverishly to prevent a war while they were engaged in Afghanistan. That delayed logictics gave rise to csd to prevent outside players from stopping it if the movement is too prolonged.
 
Not sure if I quoted the right piece, but I wanted to discuss the can't defend everywhere point. India is no Soviet or US, it's strategic lift is severely limited. Right now only the US has the necessary power to lift that many troops that quickly.

Wrong. Situation has changed dramatically. You have failed to take into account the provisions where in the civil airlift is available at an hour's notice. The civil aviation infrastructure in India is way too vast. We have the assets in terms of airlift capacity. An airborne brigade can be dropped in a couple of hours notice along with its load for combat operations and at a given time, a division worth can be airlifted. This has been tested and validated. And this is purely with own assets and not going for civil asset surge.

India has about two dozen large transports, that's not nearly enough for a quick mobilization. Through rails, it would cripple India economically, not to mention, with the way Indian rails are, it's not going to be fast even if it didn't.

Our rail links for the "economy" are different than those which will be used predominantly in case of a war on the western front. This point is irrelevant and invalid.

You would be naïve to believe that our economic corridor is same as rail links for troop mobilisation

On roads, India lack the large expressways that US and China have.

What? The point of expressways is hilarious. And anyways .... please first travel in the specific geographical areas covered for this discussion, there are excellent roads in Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat ... and they are about 4 lanes on an average and 6 lanes at quite a few roads (if it pleases you to assume that we need to drag our equipment from deep interior in totality).


But let's set that aside, and say India has some 200+ large transports and hundreds more of medium transports and can charter even more civilian airliners, assuming they have such a program. That would still require large airports and many of them, which they also don't have.


Irrelevant. The distances from adequate airports to forming up points for attacking troops is hardly 20 to 30 kms on average. You are off on this.

So why would Pakistan need to defend everywhere? Pakistan can easily figure out the few places that India can attack without being completely cut off from supplies, or even just getting there on time or near on time.

What's your opinion on this?

The reason is, we have large formations, which have been dubbed the pivot corps, which have been redesigned to fight offensive war and hence, the attack starts across the whole border by these in-situ formations while the "strike corps" take their 24 hours to start the offensive operations. You have ignored the whole rationale for the COLD START itself by raising this issue.

I never said you need lift or roads to fight, just to get all your troops in one place. You said satisfactory results, but why are the Indian sources I read saying they couldn't get them all into one place in time and it's vastly delayed the operation.

It might be talked about in this one, I'll confirm later.

Why do you guys talk as if the troops are deep in interior India? If mobilization and large scale movement of troops was required in this doctrine, no one would name it COLD START. The phrase means, as is where is .... we fight as of today's locations and as of todays strength. Period. There is no large scale movement of troops planned.

It was a huge movement for a full scale engagement. And it took more than a month - meanwhile the US worked feverishly to prevent a war while they were engaged in Afghanistan. That delayed logictics gave rise to csd to prevent outside players from stopping it if the movement is too prolonged.

It was due to the decade preceding the Kargil war, that is the 90s, saw hardly any expenditure towards capital head and only revenue expenses being met for the armed forces. We had mothballed our tanks and sent our armored regiment troops to valley to fight the counter insurgency war in Kashmir. Let us call a spade a spade. We were not ready to invade Pakistan in 99 as we did not have the reserves to confidently be able to fight an all out war. This problem was seen in Op Parakaram too as in spite of troop mobilization, the preceding decade had ensured limitation is reserves and there was paucity of reserves which should have been prepositioned for such eventualities but had not been done as the money was not there to ensure they were procured for the same. We were ready for a war (in a better shape thanks to increase in capital expenditure post Kargil but the teeth were yet to be sharp enough).

The goal for cold start is to gain land so India can use it to trade with pakistan for anything in the negotiation table.

What do you think worth more? Lahore or the area surrounding Lahore?

And you have to go in and secure the city, siege only work if you have months or years to do so not with a few days of operation

The surrounding area is worth more. You have to understand that Lahore is not a stand alone city with no urban centers around it. The mere presence of Indian Army in the Punjabi heartland of Pakistan will be unacceptable. Why enter a city when we can just sit on our side of border (in case of Lahore) and pound it day and night while dominating the adjoining areas and denying relief by enemy forces? I know you will now go into a tangent and try and enact a war on this line itself by responding with potential moves by Pakistan to counter the point. But have merely raised this point as the fact remains that 10 - 15 kms of territory across board if held, is sufficient enough as a bargain counter. If you think our aims are 50 kms, it is wrong
 
So all your troops are stationed in one place? You would need to concentrate troops and that requires air power, I mean if you want to get there before getting old.

As to "fetish" with expressways, India includes way too much unpaved roads that leads from nowhere to nowhere. It plays no part in getting your troops to where they need to be. Expressways go from one major centre to another, it's also many lanes, with faster speeds and better road conditions to allow heavy equipment to move quickly.



Seeing as a single soldier can only bring a couple hundred round, that would be gone soon. Never being a soldier maybe I'm wrong, but a war with Pakistan, would a few hundred rounds be enough, if they can carry that much. They don't have Humvees for every 4 troops so they would be limited in carry ability.

There's also satellites now, and a large concentration of troops cannot be unnoticed.

Why would Pakistan post troops everywhere, due to the nature of modern warfare, I doubt India dares to kill civilians, and thus must actively looking to take out Pakistani army, which makes the operation even more predictable.

Lastly, what's your view on how many troops India would need to conduct this operation. To me it must be around if nto more than a hundred thousand men to have any effect.

The Indian ground force have no advantage in weaponry if at all.


It would be quite funny when I ask you this question Actually What do you know about Indian Army?
You are making assessment with some hollow facts and details.First it was Airport facility and expressways and now it become advanced weaponry.
Have ever seen Indo Pak border in your life?
Since when did USArmy used expressways for their invasion in other continents.?
Nooffense mate.But you are trying to arrive to a conclusion about our set up with some fake reports and figures.
 
Pakistan also holds an option to open up its dams and flood the area with water before Indian Army can mobilise there.

I like this line. But .... what of your DCBs?? You want to wipe them off too?

infact my wife doubt if this doctrine ever existed. The whole thing is quite counter productive.

Who is your wife? Some kind of specialist in warfare in Indian Subcontinent?


If i were to initiate an assault on somebody after an event, i would not say much other than i will strike you. But CSD did more than that. This is actually a formal battleplan.

Precisely. It is dissuasive.

A doctrine need to be clear, but also need to be ambigous so not to dictate the tactical thinking. But CSD would venture just that.

It is bloody ambiguous. In spite of our screaming we don't need to mobilize our troops and equipment to fight, you still doubt it is possible. How much more ambiguous you want? You want the whole battle plan? Well here it is .... we will hit at all points that Pakistan has called as demarcation boundary ... in all directions.

About pakistan nuclear response, their threshold is low, but they will still try to fight it out until that too become impossible. That is a fine line to walk if India wanted a limited war with Pakistan

We accept their likelihood of employment of nukes at tactical level. We will reply in such a scenario for sure in proportion and much more (as per assessment of local commanders/command chain) .... the targeting will be with tactical considerations only ... and strike will be meant to be dissuasive .. or not ... depends on what the Pakistanis will want to do.

as for the city defence part, those are the only land that worth something or anything in an negotiation tabke which CSD originally intented, you will not strike Pakistan and try to attack rice paddy or rocky cave or any open ground, you would need to go for city in the end and being a short war, indian would have to enter the city and expel the defender as you cannot lay siege with less a than a week fighting

On the contrary, we will sit outside cities and hold the ground. We expect the West and International community to come and intervene diplomatically. The Pakistani government would also want to end hostilities earliest as India will be willing to withdraw troops in return for the settling of problem of the time ... who would not want to agree to a ceasefire with this line?

CSD is flawed as i mentioned time and again. The only good use of it is for deterrant factor only, its quite impractical as you said and quite counter productive

I am sure you are right on this aspect. It is flawed ... it has the chance of going nuclear, but then .. so be it ..... and NASR etc ... we have the capability too ...mind you ..... and willingness enough to use it as per our declared nuclear doctrine
 
It would be quite funny when I ask you this question Actually What do you know about Indian Army?
You are making assessment with some hollow facts and details.First it was Airport facility and expressways and now it become advanced weaponry.
Have ever seen Indo Pak border in your life?
Since when did USArmy used expressways for their invasion in other continents.?
Nooffense mate.But you are trying to arrive to a conclusion about our set up with some fake reports and figures.

@Genesis

The Indo pak border is the only one visible from space - see the concentrations nearby.

ISS028-E-029679_lrg.jpg
 
So much hype and drama around the "Cold Start Doctrine" and mostly from the Pakistani side. I am yet to see the CSD actually mentioned by any serving Indian Military officer but the Pakistani Military has produced countless documents on countering the CSD.

The CSD's origins lay purely in Op Parakram in response to a terrorist attack originating from Pakistan wherein it took the IA days to mobilise and be in a posture ready to fight the PA. Whilst many get lost in the content of the CSD i.e. capturing swathes of Pakistani territory and bargaining with Pakistan most miss the crux of the CSD- shorter mobilisation times. This is the main failing that was found in 2001 and this is what CSD mostly sought to address.


Thus whilst not an official doctrine of the IA's the CSD has been largely implemented in regards to India's mobilisation time can now being measured in hours and not days. Additionally the ongoing development of Integrated Battle Groups (IBG) provides the IA with extreme operational flexibility and scope to in flint devastating damage on Pakistan.

In terms of the actual strategy the CSD puts forward i.e. capturing Pakistani and holding it to ransom is simply one option available to India. India would be incredibly foolish to advertise its game plan to the enemy for years and years. Just like the US, India has contingency plans and military plans galore, I'm surprised @jhungary that you wouldn't understand this given your home nation (the US) is probably the leading propionate of this- there are entire departments in the Pentagon devoted to creating doctrines and strategies for any conceivable eventuality which includes alien invasions, zombie outbreaks, meteor strikes etc.


Pakistan simply likes to hype up the CSD purely as a way of justifying their own development of tactical nuclear weapons.
 
@hellfire

If it is indeed like you said, that it is close by, then what element of surprise is there, Pakistan would know exactly where those bases are, as they are not secret, and they can defend accordingly.

I was assuming that the elites may not be at the border, and they are in more prosperous areas. China's border army are not exactly elite, they exist, and we'll leave it at that.

I guess the Indian elites are on the border then.


It would be quite funny when I ask you this question Actually What do you know about Indian Army?
You are making assessment with some hollow facts and details.First it was Airport facility and expressways and now it become advanced weaponry.
Have ever seen Indo Pak border in your life?
Since when did USArmy used expressways for their invasion in other continents.?
Nooffense mate.But you are trying to arrive to a conclusion about our set up with some fake reports and figures.

So Indian government reports are fake?

I do know all the procurement programs for the Indian army that are public, I seen the INSAS rifle that the Indian army uses, I know the amount of spending India has for military.

You are saying I don't know anything, but why don't you list somethings you got an overwhelming advantage with.

In terms of ground force equipment, you have no advantage over Pakistan, at the very least, none that would standout like US to Iraq.

US army or any army always have to use road networks for their invasion, to think they don't is pretty insane. Sure some can break off, but the main troops must use roads to move, or else they be too slow. People build roads for a reason, it's not just to look pretty.

Look at any operations US did, they always used road networks to advance into Bagdad or anywhere else.
 
@hellfire

If it is indeed like you said, that it is close by, then what element of surprise is there, Pakistan would know exactly where those bases are, as they are not secret, and they can defend accordingly.

I was assuming that the elites may not be at the border, and they are in more prosperous areas. China's border army are not exactly elite, they exist, and we'll leave it at that.

I guess the Indian elites are on the border then.

Well, exactly. The Pakistanis know where the troops are as these are static locations for the majority of troops in proximity to the border. The concept is that there will be simultaneous ingresses over the entire spectrum of border region with adequate force levels being brought to bear. This is based on assessment of conventional superiority at any given time in the battle space. But as for the 'elite' .. we don't have any so called elite troops. The so called strike corps, which are three in no and sitting deep in, will be mobilized in tandem with initial hostilities and it is with these three corps the ambiguity will creep in, the exact point where an overwhelming force will be brought to bear upon by incremental force application at specific points. In any scenario, the initiative to commence hostilities lies with the Indian side as this doctrine is to be deployed in specific scenarios only. Hence, the initial initiative is of consequence here, not any element of surprise. In case of any decision by Pakistan to undertake any strike in terms of using their proxies like LeT, JeM, HM etc for such a target wherein they will expect an Indian retaliation, they will have increased alert level of their troops prior to the strike. Your last line of elite ... well we don't have any such differentiation. Our army is not in border guarding role in this border region and the responsibility is with BSF a paramilitary force under Ministry of Home.

In terms of ground force equipment, you have no advantage over Pakistan, at the very least, none that would standout like US to Iraq.

US army or any army always have to use road networks for their invasion, to think they don't is pretty insane. Sure some can break off, but the main troops must use roads to move, or else they be too slow. People build roads for a reason, it's not just to look pretty.

Look at any operations US did, they always used road networks to advance into Bagdad or anywhere else.
If the ground forces difference was not there, you would not be seeing Pakistan declaring a first strike nuclear doctrine. Period.
As for your contention of road network, you are ignoring a point I have been making since starting, the forming up points for the attack elements will be maximum 20-30 kms from their home bases. The terrain is such that it has high density of urban hamlets, thus the restriction on maneuver war or highly mechanized employment of forces over large distance is curtailed in Punjab sector. As for the desert, the roads are useless. Instead sand tracks will be laid by combat engineers ..... the desert warfare we have is the classic one and in those areas again, there is substantial urbanization. We are not too reliant on roads for these sectors. Accept it at that. US and Indian parallel is useless. We have been fighting insurgencies for 64 years now and high altitude warfare are considered expert by some (atleast US and UK forces were coming for training to Ladakh prior to Afghan deployment initially) ... our methods may seem primitive, but they suit our kind of operations. So a parallel is useless.
 
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@jhungary 'Cold Start Doctrine - Pakistani response' ! :unsure:

I knew it, you are one of us ! :kiss3:

@Mrs.Hungary - Ma'am stop commenting on the CSD and tell me 'where is the apple pie you promised me to bake for me' So many days and not a whiff of the apple pie; is this how a Big Sister treats her Pakistani brother ? :(

On Topic:

We can mobilize much sooner than the Indians can; so far as I know our mechanization is more than theirs and we're right next to the border anyhow. They've already tried mobilizing in '01/02 and at the backdrop of the Mumbai Attacks; we were there at the borders before them.

The whole or even the majority of the Indo-Pak border can't be opened up because the Northern parts of it are mountainous areas and are heavily......heavily entrenched. The North-Eastern parts are ill-suited for Armor, are heavily laced with hardened defenses and aren't that much suited for heavy troop movements either.

In either of the above simple troop movement would not see them through our defenses; 'defenses' which have been prepared with the hindsight of more than 3 wars, numerous skirmishes and a heightened state of military preparedness for the past many decades.

The South-Eastern parts are where the tank battles are projected to happen specifically in the Deserts of Southern Punjab and Northern Sindh and thats where our Armor is concentrated at.

The kind of mobilization that CSD would require needs an impressive array of artillery; ours still remains considerably better than theirs especially in the self-propelled domain.

Our forces are not 500,000. Thats just the Army; its another 450,000 paramilitary forces who are no pushover considering that the FC (which is a part of the same) are the ones battling out with the TTP and have now been battle hardened considerably due to the baptismal that they've received during this War on Terror and have been remodeled into a light fighting force perhaps near to the US Army Rangers during the tenure of Lt.Gen Tariq Khan.

Add to that the Civil Defense Force and a 500,000 strong Army reserve and we have an impressive quantitative number as well.

It certainly doesn't hurt that India's main Forward Operating Basis are a stone's throw away from the Border just as ours are and the range of Nasr doesn't become a limiting factor in this. Nor does the array of stand-off weapons we've got to exploit this further.

If by some miracle the Indians manage to break through our lines and capture (say!) Lahore which is a big if considering the minuscule time line you've given; they'd have street clearances and infighting to content which would make their ability to hold on to the city, even in a short-term, extremely difficult.

Besides our whole philosophy of offense-defense was conceived keeping in mind that in a small window (a matter of days) we can enjoy numerical superiority or at least parity over the Indian and for that work we need to get onto war with our feet running which means we'd get to the Borders quicker come what may. That is the reason behind the mechanization of our infantry, our paramilitary forces manning the borders, our army being just a few kms behind them, our forward operating basis being close to the border areas and us being drilling for prompt response since the '80s.

That response and the response to subsequent developments has been conceived and validated through the 5 Azm-e-Nau exercises.

So in short; 'Bring it On' Baby ! :smokin:

Plus you're forgetting that the Pakistanis have the Greatest Weapon of All - Armstrong the Indomitable; I don't know how to shoot a gun but I'm good with my fists ! :bunny:

@Xeric can add more ! :)

@Xeric waisee Bhai seh kiya naraazgiii keh itnii silent treatment ? :cry:

The goal for cold start is to gain land so India can use it to trade with pakistan for anything in the negotiation table.

What do you think worth more? Lahore or the area surrounding Lahore?

And you have to go in and secure the city, siege only work if you have months or years to do so not with a few days of operation

The Area surrounding Lahore ? You do realize that Lahore is a city of more than 10 million inhabitants and the area surrounding Lahore is pretty much up till the Border with India ? I mean literally up till a few kms from the Border. o_O

My buddy's university is pretty darn near the border ! :o:

Besides Lahore is my city; we will not let the Heart of Pakistan fall no matter the costs ! :kiss3:

Heck I'd make Leonidus and his 300's sacrifice look like a poorly choreographed play of muscled men in their undies, once I put my own 'Defense of Lahore' in motion and etch my name in the History Books ! :smokin:

If it ever comes to pass; who knows Jhungary Jrs. would be telling their school fellas about their brave Uncle Armstrong from across the seas ! :ashamed:
 
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Well, exactly. The Pakistanis know where the troops are as these are static locations for the majority of troops in proximity to the border. The concept is that there will be simultaneous ingresses over the entire spectrum of border region with adequate force levels being brought to bear. This is based on assessment of conventional superiority at any given time in the battle space. But as for the 'elite' .. we don't have any so called elite troops. The so called strike corps, which are three in no and sitting deep in, will be mobilized in tandem with initial hostilities and it is with these three corps the ambiguity will creep in, the exact point where an overwhelming force will be brought to bear upon by incremental force application at specific points. In any scenario, the initiative to commence hostilities lies with the Indian side as this doctrine is to be deployed in specific scenarios only. Hence, the initial initiative is of consequence here, not any element of surprise. In case of any decision by Pakistan to undertake any strike in terms of using their proxies like LeT, JeM, HM etc for such a target wherein they will expect an Indian retaliation, they will have increased alert level of their troops prior to the strike. Your last line of elite ... well we don't have any such differentiation. Our army is not in border guarding role in this border region and the responsibility is with BSF a paramilitary force under Ministry of Home.

First, we don't have too much that we disagree, mostly due to misunderstanding. Second, our biggest disagreements are roads, and thus this element of "surprise." While Tanks may be able to roll on where ever, oil trucks, and other vehicles will have a hard time with it. Off road driving is a challenge to the driver and the vehicle itself.

I have personal experience with off road, and all the reports I seen with regards to fast mobilization, damages to the vehicles, and other accidents, along with many other things will happen. This is a big limiting factor to the places a force can move effectively.

So the Indian response won't be a Nazi attacking Ukraine and by passing Maginot line.


If the ground forces difference was not there, you would not be seeing Pakistan declaring a first strike nuclear doctrine. Period.

Name something that your ground forces have that Pakistan don't. I may not know all Indian army has, very possible. As to nuclear strike, US didn't sign on the dotted line either regarding first strike, doesn't mean they can be rolled over.

To me in terms of tanks, no advantage, in terms of vehicles, like refuel, and Humvee like combat vehicles, and APCs, no advantage, small arms, nope, helicopter, maybe, but probably not much, small arms, nope, infantry equipment, nope. Artillery? Nope.
 
Cold Start Doctrine - Pakistani Response.

Since there are many, many request from the member here, asking me to look at the Cold Start doctrine that Indian Defence is rumored to be using. I was thinking, instead of going over some other threads and some other post and answer what i can with their concern, it may be best for me to open up a brand new article and address all of the concern in a new page, that way it would be easier to control and easier to understand and member can have a big picture of what was going on, instead of having to jumping up and down and skipping post and changing title......

to be fair , I have not even heard of cold start doctrine, not being a follower of South Asian Defence, there are many thing i have to learn and research. And in this article, i will solely go after the military value of the doctrine, trying not to (well, can't even if i wanted) go over to the political side of the story.

What is cold start?

Cold start is a doctrine developed by the Indian Military, in the event of an provoked attack, this doctrine, or guideline on layman term, would be dictating the action Indian Military took after such an event.
In an historic sense, a doctrine would not serve as a tactical capacity but would be incorporated into the training for the action and reaction that to be occur in the environment lay out by the doctrine. Hence, it's serve only as a guideline, but not a step by step instruction to Indian Military if said event do happens in the future.

Cold Start centred at a mobile strike group (or numbers of battlegroup) that when provoked, will be mobilised to engage in a limited war before the Pakistani Defence can be mobilise and put into action. This is the core value of Cold Start Doctrine. Where a full mobilisation of Indian Army would not only take times, but also dangerous as it may felt into full on nuclear warfare.
How Cold Start Works

Cold start would guarantee a limited war with Pakistan, while evade and dodge any negative international pressure, the purpose is for India to launch a holding strike using the mobile strike group. Where as act as a quick grab of territories, it would be useful when the eventual international pressure demand a cessation of hostilities and said territorial gain could be use as bargaining chips on the negotiation table.

This would mean an immediate combine assault toward Pakistan and the whole operation would last for only a short time, mostly before Pakistan can fully mobilise and before international pressure can be pile in.

Strategical Consideration for India

What India need to consider on a strategic level mainly evolve around the question how to not go all nuclear. Attack of any kind will result in correspondent response and it's utmost important for India not to overstep the attack and trigger a full on nuclear war.

With that in mind, the main focus should be target selection. Where a target is important enough to gain point on the negotiation table, but not important enough for Pakistan to start or risk to start a full on nuclear war.

That would directly link to troop deposition. Being a "mobile strike group" If you are going to position them hundreds of mile away from your target, how mobile can it be? Especially when you are talking about time sensitive ops where every minute mean more power on the table. You cannot put your troop far away from your target. However, you also cannot position your troop near the target on the border, or else everyone will know where are you going for when you are about to do it.

Strategically Consideration for Pakistan

One word - Land. The main objective for PDF should be minimise lost. There are pretty much nothing there are the Pakistan need to do, but to fight off the attack and limit Indian gain.

The real estate in this case should be the big focus on the Pakistani mind

Limitation for India

First thing being a plan for retaliation, that is your first step is fixed. What it means is you basically advertise that you have a Military operation incoming. Pakistan will always ready as long as said trigger event happen, they would have expect a strike will soon follow.

This is a bad thing, because in war, the less you let your opponent know the better and being a set piece attack, basically you give enough time for Pakistan to prepare for what coming up next, yes the Pakistani would still have to guess where the attack is going to go down and how it is going down, but the first piece of information is out even before the fight, which give Pakistani the initiative.

Also a limitation would be the troop strength, India cannot afford to march in overpowered, as this will most likely trigger a nuclear war. And being a short campaign, we cannot expect Indian would have anything in reserve to put into action in case something or everything go south. Simply there are not enough time. Also, more troop take longer time to organise and mobilise. And you cannot put a lot of troop on a 24/7 ready state hoping for an attack, so the troop India can mobilise within that timeframe would be minimal.

So, that would severely inhabit the Indian Striking ability, as 2 out of 4 question would already be answer before the war even start. Which is the When and What. Now, the Pakistan military would only need to tactle the problem of "How and Where"

and finally the effort. Being a mobile strike force, the element Indian need to perform a holding strike would be increase in number exponentially, Say for example, you need a brigade of tank to cross the border, you don't just stick 1 flight (or squad or whatever unit apporiate to support) but ideally you will need 3, if what you want is a continous support. You need 1 flight in the air, 1 flight on ready, and one flight for replacement. So in the end, you would need a giantic support force just for a small, multiday campaign.

Limitation for Pakistan

As we know, pakistan is smaller, and narrower piece of land next to india, being small would limited their defence as you have a smaller depth of defence (Strategic Depth), meaning there are no much to buffer and absorb an enemy attack.

Couple with the fact that, basically, nearly half of Pakistan bordered India, that mean strike can be expected anywhere within the border and with increasing Indian amphibious capability, which mean a mobile strike can launch in the western part of Pakistan, leaving only the border with Afghanistan safe from being assaulted.

With that comes the dilemma, with not enough man power (Approximately 500,000 men), you cannot possibly defend the whole stretch of your border with India, and with every inch of land lost would see as a failure to the eventual negotiation, that means Pakistan have to do more with less.


How to counter Cold Start


Technically with this limitation, there are only 3 possible ways to get out of the situation alive. There are and could be asymmetrical response but i am not going to say it here

1.) Take out the provoking factor, i know this is kind of lame, and Pakistani member probably don't wanted to hear this, but this way is the easiest way to make sure Cold Start Doctrine would never actually start. By shaping up the country and eliminate the "Provoke Factor" with the terrorist, that would directly shut off the reason to maintain a cold start.

Simply because the whole doctrine is build on one single thing, that's a terrorist event that trigger Indian Retaliation, so if the triggering event is removed, that would also mean the whole doctrine lose its value.

2.) Take out the "mobile" factor, this is based on Russia Armoured Doctrine, where it was tried and tested during WW2. Which involve setting up defensive perimeter along the border with multiple delaying defences. The universal answer to lack of depth is to strength static defence

However, as i said before on the limitation, Pakistan would have not enough men to fill the defense position, while in WW2, the Russian outnumber the German. So what we need is a little twit on the concept, and put in a factor that make Israeli the king of defence with lack of strategic depth - The potentcy of reserve force
The same problem have been faced by Israeli during the 48 and 73 war, where Israel is the more or less same situation as Pakistan, small piece of land, narrow mass, and surrounded by 3 sides of enemy. What they do during the war was to make the reservist first line of defence. Group them not by divisional location but by where they live.

Modern military usually require reservist to report to duty to a place far away from his/her home, putting reservisst into unit assemble a "Home Guard" means their mobilisation time is shorten and they would fight best on the land they know and they grew up with.

Another thing Pakistani need to pull a victory out of this is a force multiplier. In other word, how to do more with less. What Iraq war (The first one) has taught us, that without some sort of Communication and Update, we would waste a lot of resources in redundance.

Between the First and Second Gulf war, the equipment the US use has not change much, yet we perform better with less troop, less aircraft and less tank. C4I and network centric warfare would improve the Pakistan warfighting capacity greatly, that maybe enough to stop.

3.) Being mobile than the Indian mobile battle group. Base on US Mobile (Organic) warfare. Where the main focus is on choosing the right battleground and try too counter attack the initial assault.

What US facing after WW2 is a massive Soviet Russian Force, particularly with the Russian Armoured Force, it's projection is about the same situation with modern Indian/Pakistan military relationship, where India is bigger and have more force and more power. Pakistan is smaller and have a small force with medium to highly supplicated equipment. Mobile warfare is the answer to a more high tech approach to the problem
Essentially, what you do is a serious of delaying tactics and avoid the main fight, until you have terrain, troop number and support in your favour. If Pakistan defence can be liquid, mobile and self sufficient enough, you can go around the spearhead of Indian Mobile Strike group and attack the vulnerable supply train.

To do that, you will need a very modern armed force, highly technological and highly mobile. Enough to know in advance where the enemy is going to strike, then move your force out of the way to main integrity and also quick enough to organise an attack to outflank your enemy.

Again, Pakistan would need a kind of force multiplier, in a form of "the eyes of the skies" or any form of early warning. As said before, Pakistan would laterally expect an attack after a triggering event, so you will need AEWCS to know first hand where the strike is going to be.

By losing some ground and later counter attack, it would also require less effort to unjamming or compensate for land lost. Say for example, if the Pakistani can pin down some of the mobile strike ground by out manuvering them, you can use it as a bargaining chips in exchange for ground lost by Indian advance.

Effectiveness of Nasr Missile

Nasr Missile is a tactical ballistic missile in use by the Pakistan to supposed counter Cold Start doctrine. Nasr can carry a small sub-kiloton nuclear warhead which would deal maximum damage to amassing enemy troop.

Like other Tactical Short range ballistic missile, such as the famous SCUD missile, they are mobile launchable, with ready time anywhere between 30 to 90 minutes (depending on the ready stage)

What Nasr function is like the Cold War doctrine used by the American during an purposed Soviet Russia full on armoured assault over Europe. Where a few nuclear tipped short range ballistic missile will fire on the massive tank column and knock down a chuck of enemy power with relatively minimal collateral casualty.

Many member have asked would the Nasr be a game changer for the Cold Start doctrine. My answer would be a firm no. The same reason why the US move away from using tactical nuclear missile in an event of massive attack and focus on a 3 pronged defence making use of attack helicopter, tanks and infantry to counter the assault.

Indeed, Nasr would be hard to defeat once launch, however, it's equally important to protect them before they are launched. What we learn from gulf war is that missile have to preset a course, that's where you position your missile battery, you cannot put it in one place and you actually targetting a target 1000km away with that missile. So that's a predictibility .

For the aforementioned plan to work. A Missile needs a target, and being a short range ballistic missile, you need to position your missile close to the target, the reported range of Nasr is slightly over 60km, and that is not a large distant to cover to beginning with.

Now, if you look at the point of view from the Indian, your (Pakistani) missile position related to where my tanks are so that your strike would be effective, and being Indian, they know where the Indian tank are going to be (Well, they position it) and the only thing they need to do is do a sweep with in that 60km circle of each group either by special force or by AWACS. and carry out S&D mission to take out the Nasr that in the vicinity before roll on the armour, that would negate the missile effectiveness greatly.

The US/UK have done the same with the Iraqi Scud battery during the first gulf war, while Aerial Scouting produce little progress, UK SAS make good progress on "SCUD hunt" and render almost all SCUD strike ineffective. And the only different between then and now is back then the SAS don't know what the intended target was (only Either UN Force in Iraq, in Saudi Arabia or Israel) and this time, the Indian Special Force know where to look for the Nasr.

This is my takes on Cold Start doctrine, suggestion/question/discussion welcome and you can drop me a line if you want me to clarify anything. And I tried very hard to stay neutral on this topic and i only discuss the deployment and military aspect of the issue.

@WebMaster
@Horus
@Slav Defence
@Oscar
@Side-Winder
Pakistan has already developed an answer for this Cold Start crap. Interestingly all the major exercises done by Indian Armed Forces has made it clear that achieving sucsess in this is almost impossible.
 
in the USMA and OCS, we are still taught the hammer and anvil doctrine that was being used by alexander the great 1500 years ago

Blitzkrieg is still being taught and still an official doctrine for us army armourer school and Russia largely still using the same playbook during soviet time




Doctrines are already there but when and how and where to use is a matter of desecration. Cold start in itself shall remain as a doctrine but that does not mean that it will be always be a guiding doctrine in Indo Pak conflict form Indian side. It was fast mobilization of resources once upon a time. It followed by Cold start when India and Pakistan became Nuclear power. Old doctrine loose its relevance and if I am not wrong, cold start started emerging in late nineties. Equations have changed since than. Pakistan decided to use Tactical Nukes with Nasr to defend against indian cold start like inversion.It is very difficult to agree that Indian doctorine of cold start is relevant today and indian army shall follow the same as guiding doctrine in Indo Pak conflict.
 

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