Cold Start Doctrine - Pakistani Response. By Jhungary

[SrNair]

@hellfire

If it is indeed like you said, that it is close by, then what element of surprise is there, Pakistan would know exactly where those bases are, as they are not secret, and they can defend accordingly.

I was assuming that the elites may not be at the border, and they are in more prosperous areas. China's border army are not exactly elite, they exist, and we'll leave it at that.

I guess the Indian elites are on the border then.




So Indian government reports are fake?

I do know all the procurement programs for the Indian army that are public, I seen the INSAS rifle that the Indian army uses, I know the amount of spending India has for military.

You are saying I don't know anything, but why don't you list somethings you got an overwhelming advantage with.

In terms of ground force equipment, you have no advantage over Pakistan, at the very least, none that would standout like US to Iraq.

US army or any army always have to use road networks for their invasion, to think they don't is pretty insane. Sure some can break off, but the main troops must use roads to move, or else they be too slow. People build roads for a reason, it's not just to look pretty.

Look at any operations US did, they always used road networks to advance into Bagdad or anywhere else.

Haha Indian reports and look of INSAS.
This is why I said you are trying to conclude with some dots and points .
Do you have any experience with INSAS?
Yes now Army is try to replace it with another rifle.But they are aiming for a next gen rifle perhaps the best in the world or futiristic expensive system.But still they are using INSAS because it has some advantages.
And actually what is this CSD?
India created such a doctrine on what basis .If you dont know that look at the OP.CSD is fast punitive retaliatory strike with full armoured thrusts and ground support.Means we have guaranteed superiority against the adversary.
AFAIK you didnt see the Indo Pak border in your life .
When they formulated that doctrine they build special roads for that .Fact is you have no idea about our methods and set up.We dont need high tech facilities for our military operations.

 

[Armstrong]

Doctrines are already there but when and how and where to use is a matter of desecration. Cold start in itself shall remain as a doctrine but that does not mean that it will be always be a guiding doctrine in Indo Pak conflict form Indian side. It was fast mobilization of resources once upon a time. It followed by Cold start when India and Pakistan became Nuclear power. Old doctrine loose its relevance and if I am not wrong, cold start started emerging in late nineties. Equations have changed since than. Pakistan decided to use Tactical Nukes with Nasr to defend against indian cold start like inversion.It is very difficult to agree that Indian doctorine of cold start is relevant today and indian army shall follow the same as guiding doctrine in Indo Pak conflict.

discretion !

 

[HariPrasad]

discretion !

Yes because there is not any hard and fast rule to follow some doctorine in particular situation. It is a matter of discretion of country and even individuals. e.g imagine a situation of Indo Pak conflict. Mr Raheel sharif may have his own style of response compare to that of Mr. Kiyani. These Doctrine are more of an art compare to a science and multiple responses and doctrines are possible to follow in same scenario.

 

[third eye]

• Pakistan will know before the decision to attack goes from the highest to the lowest chain of command, thanks to our Human Intelligence network inside India.

In military parlance the defender is like a bride on her wedding night.

She knows the groom is coming, she knows what he has in his mind, she knows what he intends to do.

What the defender like the bride does not know is from which direction and in what strength will the attack come !

The attacker like the groom retains the option of ' bypassing' known defence lines .. and so much more.

Therefore knowledege of an imminent attack is of limited value as it only states the obvious.

 

[Armstrong]

Yes because there is not any hard and fast rule to follow some doctorine in particular situation. It is a matter of discretion of country and even individuals. e.g imagine a situation of Indo Pak conflict. Mr Raheel sharif may have his own style of response compare to that of Mr. Kiyani. These Doctrine are more of an art compare to a science and multiple responses and doctrines are possible to follow in same scenario.

'English' not 'Strategy' was on my mind when I made that post !

In military parlance the defender is like a bride on her wedding night.

She knows the groom is coming, she knows what he has in his mind, she knows what he intends to do.

That sounds so crude; surely a better analogy could've sufficed !

 

[third eye]

• Pakistan also holds an option to open up its dams and flood the area with water before Indian Army can mobilise there.

When was the last time that water was used as an defensive weapon ? In WW2 the movie ' The Dam Busters' brings out use of water as an offensive weapon to flood the factories in the Rhur belt.

Nothing suits the attacker more than making the defender flood his own areas against an attack that never materilaises .

Next , the lie of the land does not permit the kind of flooding to take place in Southern Punjab / Sind which would impede mobile forces.

Its a double edged weapon , flooded areas can act as a shoulder for the attacker to operate from forming a No -Go area to the defender too.

'
That sounds so crude; surely a better analogy could've sufficed !

My apologies if I have offended you but the message I am sure has been driven home.

 

[Kompromat]

When was the last time that water was used as an defensive weapon ? In WW2 the movie ' The Dam Busters' brings out use of water as an offensive weapon to flood the factories in the Rhur belt.

Nothing suits the attacker more than making the defender flood his own areas against an attack that never materilaises .

Next , the lie of the land does not permit the kind of flooding to take place in Southern Punjab / Sind which would impede mobile forces.

Its a double edged weapon , flooded areas can act as a shoulder for the attacker to operate from forming a No -Go area to the defender too.

It can do what needs to be done. Which is to deny the enemy its biggest advantage, 'speed'.

 

[HariPrasad]

'English' not 'Strategy' was on my mind when I made that post !

I do not find anything wrong with English as well. Kindly be specific.

 

[third eye]

It can do what needs to be done. Which is to deny the enemy its biggest advantage, 'speed'.

Good luck

 

[Genesis]

Haha Indian reports and look of INSAS.
This is why I said you are trying to conclude with some dots and points .
Do you have any experience with INSAS?
Yes now Army is try to replace it with another rifle.But they are aiming for a next gen rifle perhaps the best in the world or futiristic expensive system.But still they are using INSAS because it has some advantages.

I don't know how to continue this argument when your "next-gen" rifle is considered, by you, to be perhaps best in the world.

Next Gen is OICW, your rifle is just a replacement for this gen. It's at best as good as HK-416, there's really not that many things you can do to a current gen rifle, and the difference exist still, but not that much.

I won't call the INSAS crap, it's a gun and it works, the difference regardless, won't be that huge at this point.

Small arms is hardly the point.

But if you insist, you can name some areas, where you are so much better than Pakistan in terms of ground forces, that even with less numbers, you can still achieve superiority.

 

[acid rain]

First, we don't have too much that we disagree, mostly due to misunderstanding. Second, our biggest disagreements are roads, and thus this element of "surprise." While Tanks may be able to roll on where ever, oil trucks, and other vehicles will have a hard time with it. Off road driving is a challenge to the driver and the vehicle itself.

I have personal experience with off road, and all the reports I seen with regards to fast mobilization, damages to the vehicles, and other accidents, along with many other things will happen. This is a big limiting factor to the places a force can move effectively.

So the Indian response won't be a Nazi attacking Ukraine and by passing Maginot line.




Name something that your ground forces have that Pakistan don't. I may not know all Indian army has, very possible. As to nuclear strike, US didn't sign on the dotted line either regarding first strike, doesn't mean they can be rolled over.

To me in terms of tanks, no advantage, in terms of vehicles, like refuel, and Humvee like combat vehicles, and APCs, no advantage, small arms, nope, helicopter, maybe, but probably not much, small arms, nope, infantry equipment, nope. Artillery? Nope.

The reason for creating battlefield nukes and a first use policy with a very low threshold is because the pa generals know their vulnerability in regards to holding the thrust conventionally.

Softening up defenses by both air and sea will be a part of the offensive and overall the difference in conventional and econonic sustainability is huge.

As for roads, there are a million and one heavy trucks that ply throughout the length and breadth of India daily and these trucks travel 700 to 1000 km in a 24 hour period - India has one of the largest fleets of road transport in the world and we are highly dependent on road transport for our logistics, so pretty lame to deduce that we do not have good roads for high mobility.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Cold start---easier said than done----. As the results are extremely unpredictable---for that reason it would be like teetering on the verge of a major disaster.

Deploying 100 k troops by india would mean to nothing---because Pakistan can deploy more in lesser time.

The problem for india is the same as the pak army faces in Fata---the pak army troop movement is visible to the Taliban long before their arrival at the destination.

To make the surge---indian army needs 3 time the forces they are going to face and they don't have that and they cannot deploy that in time.

That leaves surgical air strikes, naval strikes n Karachi and para troopers----.

The reason for creating battlefield nukes and a first use policy with a very low threshold is because the pa generals know their vulnerability in regards to holding the thrust conventionally.

Softening up defenses by both air and sea will be a part of the offensive and overall the difference in conventional and econonic sustainability is huge.

Sir,

You have been given wrong information about pak generals---. We were making nuc threats till 2007 openly---not since then. Things have changed a lot----.

This war will be fought on indian land---there is no east Pakistan to worry about----there are no holds barred---you start the cold start at your discretion and we will finish it on our terms----.

This time---we already know there is no going to uncle Sam for us----. But you will have to make the run.

The problem this time is that you have a lots of uncle sams money tied up---actually you have a lots of western world's money tied up----with any kind of war----you are going to ruin their economies by crashing their stock markets----. The west is going to suffer more---ad th cannot accept a war---either a cold start or a warm strike.

 

[SrNair]

I don't know how to continue this argument when your "next-gen" rifle is considered, by you, to be perhaps best in the world.

Next Gen is OICW, your rifle is just a replacement for this gen. It's at best as good as HK-416, there's really not that many things you can do to a current gen rifle, and the difference exist still, but not that much.

I won't call the INSAS crap, it's a gun and it works, the difference regardless, won't be that huge at this point.

Small arms is hardly the point.

But if you insist, you can name some areas, where you are so much better than Pakistan in terms of ground forces, that even with less numbers, you can still achieve superiority.

Google it you will get entire details of armaments of our strike corps.Only issue is artillery .But we have our indigenous systems that is going for a large scale induction.Our entire tank fleets are already upgraded to the modern standard.And have Arjun and T 90
Our Army Aviation Corps is going for the induction of 120 LCH and also Apaches.We also have back up missile systems like Pinaka and Pragati that can ensure our quick reaction.These are just few from our large armoury.

We have a MCIWS program for NG assaultrifle.Google it if you want.

Hi,

Cold start---easier said than done----. As the results are extremely unpredictable---for that reason it would be like teetering on the verge of a major disaster.

Deploying 100 k troops by india would mean to nothing---because Pakistan can deploy more in lesser time.

The problem for india is the same as the pak army faces in Fata---the pak army troop movement is visible to the Taliban long before their arrival at the destination.

To make the surge---indian army needs 3 time the forces they are going to face and they don't have that and they cannot deploy that in time.

That leaves surgical air strikes, naval strikes n Karachi and para troopers----.



Sir,

You have been given wrong information about pak generals---. We were making nuc threats till 2007 openly---not since then. Things have changed a lot----.

This war will be fought on indian land---there is no east Pakistan to worry about----there are no holds barred---you start the cold start at your discretion and we will finish it on our terms----.

This time---we already know there is no going to uncle Sam for us----. But you will have to make the run.

The problem this time is that you have a lots of uncle sams money tied up---actually you have a lots of western world's money tied up----with any kind of war----you are going to ruin their economies by crashing their stock markets----. The west is going to suffer more---ad th cannot accept a war---either a cold start or a warm strike.

Sir ,
I agree with you .CSD is outdated and also counter productive.
But reasons that you mentioned is seems funny.First of all you made a mistake by comparing Indian Army with Pak Army and also TTP.
CAS is an inevitable part of CSD.Means we will take entire AAD system of Pakistan before CSD. Then we can easily deploy our C17 and C130j or IL 76 for paratroops.All these will happen only after the softening of border .
New types like glide bombs are also in development for such a possibility.
In fact except that NASR we dont have any problem with CSD.But one Nasr strike would change the equations drastically.
Western guys will ensure diplomatic tight game for Pakistan if they dont want a war.And that would be more problematic for Pakistan.

 

[Genesis]

Google it you will get entire details of armaments of our strike corps.Only issue is artillery .But we have our indigenous systems that is going for a large scale induction.Our entire tank fleets are already upgraded to the modern standard.And have Arjun and T 90
Our Army Aviation Corps is going for the induction of 120 LCH and also Apaches.We also have back up missile systems like Pinaka and Pragati that can ensure our quick reaction.These are just few from our large armoury.

We have a MCIWS program for NG assaultrifle.Google it if you want.

I think you are misunderstanding me, I didn't say India was defenseless, I'm simply saying what gives India this overwhelming advantage over Pakistan, that will allow you to overwhelm them.

Artillery, let's set that aside, in terms of tanks, Pakistan also have modern tanks, so that's a push, you don't have LCH, and when you will have all of them, I don't know, but it's probably not going to be within 5-7 years.

Apache is on our border, and thus difficult to move to that part of the border, IF, the assault takes place far from Chinese border.

Pakistan also has missiles, not a big deal.

In terms of attack helicopters, didn't Pakistan just sign a deal with Russia for more Attack Helicopters, so they should be set for at least the next 4-6 years without doing much of anything in this sector.


Lastly, MCIWS, I know all about it, a good rifle don't get me wrong, but it's not next gen, google what a OICW is, it's revolutionary relative to the current gen rifles.

All in all, you named a very good rifle, not inducted, a light attack helicopter, also not inducted, and tanks, MK.II not inducted, and T-90 that Pakistan have equals, and missiles that both have enough to do some damage.


In terms of APC, and Humvee like vehicles, both are lacking in numbers, in terms of drones, both not that great, in terms of anti air, neither has any advance anti air weapons, like the HQ-9 or S-300, in terms of body armor and other equipments, still lacking, What else am I missing.

 

[SrNair]

I think you are misunderstanding me, I didn't say India was defenseless, I'm simply saying what gives India this overwhelming advantage over Pakistan, that will allow you to overwhelm them.

Artillery, let's set that aside, in terms of tanks, Pakistan also have modern tanks, so that's a push, you don't have LCH, and when you will have all of them, I don't know, but it's probably not going to be within 5-7 years.

Apache is on our border, and thus difficult to move to that part of the border, IF, the assault takes place far from Chinese border.

Pakistan also has missiles, not a big deal.

In terms of attack helicopters, didn't Pakistan just sign a deal with Russia for more Attack Helicopters, so they should be set for at least the next 4-6 years without doing much of anything in this sector.


Lastly, MCIWS, I know all about it, a good rifle don't get me wrong, but it's not next gen, google what a OICW is, it's revolutionary relative to the current gen rifles.

All in all, you named a very good rifle, not inducted, a light attack helicopter, also not inducted, and tanks, MK.II not inducted, and T-90 that Pakistan have equals, and missiles that both have enough to do some damage.


In terms of APC, and Humvee like vehicles, both are lacking in numbers, in terms of drones, both not that great, in terms of anti air, neither has any advance anti air weapons, like the HQ-9 or S-300, in terms of body armor and other equipments, still lacking, What else am I missing.

Lol.
Here we goes another funny posts.
I didnt claim that Pak forces are defensless. They have also tanks and other things.But what about its numbers.
FYI we also began the induction of MK 2 and already have T 90 and induction will increase around 1000 in numbers.
We are talking artillery systems .We are manufacturing large chunks of Prahar and Pinaka 2 with extended range these are also the part of our artillery wing.
Now LCH will begin its induction within 2 years.If there is emergency situation they will speed up the entire modernization.
We have a good economy for that.
Who told you that Apache is only for your side of the borders?And talks is already going to increase its numbers.

Pakistan also have systems.But you should check its quantity.
Same as I said you are trying for a conclusion on a subject with zero knowledge.
You have no idea about Indo Pak border geography .So dont absurd claims unless you want to ridicule yourselves.
Humves and its copies are not applicable in hilly terrain of LoC and cant ensure its performance in desert .
AFAIK even US dont modernized their armerd forces a weapon like MCIWS till now but they are aiming for it with Scar