CM-400AKG: Pakistan's supersonic carrier killer

[regular]

So basically the only advantage of such cruise missiles over Babar and Ra'ad is speed?

yes just the speed and nothing else.....

 

[Ammyy]

Indians are so much thumping their chests over Barak SAM system. Indians you have been ripped off again by Israelis.
Below video showed the reality of much hyped Iron Dome, and Iron Dome rockets instead of intercepting home-made Palestinian rockets are falling themselves on Israeli population.

If thats the performance against home-made rockets what will be the performance of Israeli SAMs against CM-400AKG...??
I think Indian SAMs will be falling back over IN warships

No system is full proof, neither Israeli claim that Iron Dome is full proof.

Their are hundreds of video available when Irton Done hit accurately.

 

[humanfirst]

Btw, as no one is congratulating us, I'll congratulate ourselves for this acquisition. Yes yes, we bought it. Does that make it any less lethal? Let's see who else can go and "just buy it" like an off-the-shelf item, don't think so!

Congrats dude..And congrats to pakistan for making wise and efficient purchases...

 

[Hyperion]

Congrats dude..And congrats to pakistan for making wise and efficient purchases...

Mate, sometimes I just get confused as to why people on this forum loose objectivity when analyzing any weapon / strategy related to India or Pakistan. For me, only the technical parameter(s) of any weapon / equipment should be the sole criteria. Come India / Pakistan into any equation, and all hell breaks loose - everyone gets emotional and abuses start flying left right and center!

 

[humanfirst]

Mate, sometimes I just get confused as to why people on this forum loose objectivity when analyzing any weapon / strategy related to India or Pakistan. For me, only the technical parameter(s) of any weapon / equipment should be the sole criteria. Come India / Pakistan into any equation, and all hell breaks loose - everyone gets emotional and abuses start flying left right and center!

As long as we are discussing the technical parameters from reliable sources there is no scope for emotional outbursts and flame wars..But when the discussion shifts to probable scenarios wrt India-pakistan the di*ck measuring contests kicks in..May be its just the spectacle of the part human nature where things are seen subjectively,where reality is distorted by what we wish it to be..

 

[humanfirst]

Wouldn't the missile's (friction) heat signature against a cold ocean background stand out like a sore thumb? How many natural phenomena travel supersonic? Once the IR sensors detect something fishy on the water, the radar can be used to pinpoint.

Noob question - Wouldn't a Brahmos traveling at 4m from the sea-level & at that speed with that engine configuration give off an enormously large heat-signature that may off-set any (or most of the) benefit accrued from 'sea skimming' ?

Noob answerI am not an expert..lol)

Detection by radar is possible when the missile/incoming aircraft is within the horizon of ship's radar..

This simple principle is made advantage of in sea skimming missiles,where by flying close to sea,the missile emerges over the horizon of ship's radar much later than conventional missiles(which can be detected 100s of kms away),thus giving very much less reaction time for the victim..So the heat signature of a sea skimming missile wont amount to much as long as the missile is below the horizon of ship's radar/IR detectors
By the time IR detectors actually detects the threat,the purpose of sea skimming would be already achieved,which is to give the enemy very low reaction time(only some seconds).

Furthermore, if I were to assume that the Brahmos isn't going to sea-skim till much later into the stage as opposed to doing it since the inception or even before mid-course, wouldn't it be detected by any vessel with an able radar perhaps 100 or 200 Kms away, because of that heat-signature ?

Theoretically yes,if the missile comes within the horizon of ships radar and within the radar range..But that would nullify the purpose of the sea skimming itself..So if ever such sea skimming missiles are to fly higher in initial stage,i think it would be at a range out of ship's radar's..

 

[Armstrong]

Why is everyone so concerned about the missile and it's lethality? Soon enough, it will be tested and we can all rest!

Btw, as no one is congratulating us, I'll congratulate ourselves for this acquisition. Yes yes, we bought it. Does that make it any less lethal? Let's see who else can go and "just buy it" like an off-the-shelf item, don't think so!

Please, don't let it give you indigestion. Bravado aside, serious engineers and defense analysts (Indian/Pakistani) understand very well the implications of this acquisition by Pakistan.

Holy Crap - You're a Senior Member now !

Congratulations....bazurgooon !

I'm neither serious nor an engineer or a defense analyst - Tell me about the implications of this acquisition ?

 

[Hyperion]

Holy Crap - You're a Senior Member now !

Congratulations....bazurgooon !

I'm neither serious nor an engineer or a defense analyst - Tell me about the implications of this acquisition ?

I'm a man of very few words. If it works as advertised and provided we get large enough numbers of it, plus 'if' we are allowed to tinker around in secret with it's guidance software and terminal-phase attack mechanics ---- then KABOOM!!!

 

[Armstrong]

I'm a man of very few words. If it works as advertised and provided we get large enough numbers of it, plus 'if' we are allowed to tinker around in secret with it's guidance software and terminal-phase attack mechanics ---- then KABOOM!!!

I wasn't asking for a Divan-i-Hypie but thats just too minimal !

How much do you think would one of these cost ? And do tell that relative to other missiles that we have; Exocet, Sidewinders, Ra'ads etc. to give me a decent comparative of whether we'd have the cash to procure them.

For example : It'll cost as much as : 2 Exocets, 10 Sidewinders or 1 Ra'ad ! Something...gimme something to work here, Rora !

 

[arp2041]

November 23, 2012: China found its first export customer (Pakistan) for its new CM-400AKG supersonic cruise missile. With a max range of 250 kilometers and a guidance system that includes GPS, onboard radar, and an image recognition system that can identify a specific target, this new missile uses its high speed to evade defenses on ships. In all these respects the CM-400AKG is very similar to the Indo-Russian BrahMos. One major difference between the two missiles is that the CM-400AKG is still in development and there is no evidence of tests. This “sale” may be a ploy by the Chinese manufacturer to determine if it will be worth the huge expense to actually make this missile work.

To understand that conundrum, consider the background of the missile the CM-400AKG is so similar to. BrahMos is a 3.2 ton missile with a range of 300 kilometers and a 300 kg (660 pound) warhead. Perhaps the most striking characteristic is its high speed, literally faster (at up to 1,000 meters/3,100 feet per second) than a rifle bullet. Guidance is GPS or inertial to reach the general area of the target (usually a ship or other small target), then a radar that will identify the specific target and hit it. The high speed at impact causes additional damage (because of the weight of the entire missile). All this is almost identical with the CM-400AKG.

India and Russia developed the weapon together and now offer it for export. The high price of each missile, about $2-3 million (depending on the version), restricts the number of countries that can afford it. The weapon entered service with the Indian navy in 2005. Different versions of the missile can be fired from aircraft, ships, ground launchers, or submarines. The maximum speed of 3,000 kilometers an hour makes it harder to intercept and means it takes five minutes or less to reach its target. The air launched version weighs 2.5 tons.

The 9.4 meter (29 foot) long, 670mm diameter missile is an upgraded version of the Russian SS-NX-26 (Yakhont) missile, which was still in development when the Cold War ended in 1991. Lacking money to finish development and begin production, the Russian manufacturer eventually made a deal with India to put up most of the $240 million needed to finally complete two decades of development. The BrahMos is being built in Russia and India, with the Russians assisting India in setting up manufacturing facilities for cruise missile components. Efforts are being made to export up to 2,000 but no one has placed an order yet. Russia and India are encouraged enough to invest in BrahMos 2, which will use a scramjet, instead of a ramjet, in the second stage. This would double the speed and make the missile much more difficult to defend against.
Air Weapons: The Chinese BrahMos

(Posted in AF forum, because analyst suspect its only air launch , where the Indo-Russian is all air,ground, navel).

1 Para of CM-400AKG & 3 paras of Brahmos. Don't know which missile the author wants to sell

 

[Hyperion]

How much do you think would one of these cost ? And do tell that relative to other missiles that we have; Exocet, Sidewinders, Ra'ads etc. to give me a decent comparative of whether we'd have the cash to procure them.

Dude, we will never know the cost of the missile. If you had asked me this question just couple of years back, my chachu was DG Defense Procurement @ GHQ. Besides, you are comparing a peanut, an apple, a watermelon and Ghobi! Whatever the cost, as long as it does for which it is advertised.

1 Para of CM-400AKG & 3 paras of Brahmos. Don't know which missile the author wants to sell

Yeah, that is kind of funny!

 

[A.Rafay]

It will be a day of great victory when India Launches its carrier and when it comes near Pakistan, Our JF-17 Will take it out with couple of these missiles!

 

[Mitro]

How do you know that its free? Were you there during the negotiations?

Imma Joking - YouTube

 

[sohaib91]

congratulations

 

[Penguin]

Noob question - Wouldn't a Brahmos traveling at 4m from the sea-level & at that speed with that engine configuration give off an enormously large heat-signature that may off-set any (or most of the) benefit accrued from 'sea skimming' ?

Furthermore, if I were to assume that the Brahmos isn't going to sea-skim till much later into the stage as opposed to doing it since the inception or even before mid-course, wouldn't it be detected by any vessel with an able radar perhaps 100 or 200 Kms away, because of that heat-signature ?

@Penguin : Dude, can you pitch in as well ?

For an (antiship) missile to fly at 1-2 meter over water, you would need a VERY calm sea so operationally that capability over water is often practically limited. Nonetheless, the lower the missile can manage under given circumstances, the better its chances of remaining undetected for a longer time. But flight profile is an issue: advantage goes to a missile that is a sea skimmer all the way versus one that does a hi-hi-lo or lo-hi-lo profile: missile may be detected during hi-flight and while it will subsequently duck 'under the radar' during final approach the fact that it may have been detected in an earlier flight stage does give some warning to the target. Detection by radar is of course complemented by ESM, which will pick up any emissions from the missile during final approach (so, there is advantage in having an IR seeker, either as prime or complementary means of target acquisition)

As for heat/thermal signature, I suppose a supersonic missile would have propulsion involding higher temperatures and the missile body may also be warmer (more friction heat due to higher flight speed). The former may be moderated by shielding while the latter effect may be moderate by the type of materials used: this depends on the specific missile features.

To detect the heat signature of an inbound missile, the target vessel would need to be equipped with thermal imaging gear, specifically an InfraRed Search and Track system such as e.g. Thales Sirius.
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Documents/Air_Systems_Datasheet_-_Sirius/

Sirius is an example of a shipborne long range IRST. Note that 'long range' here is of a different order of magnitude compared to radar (SMART-L detects to 400km, APAR to 80 as far as missiles are concerned): Sirius scans at 60 rpm, can report on 128 simultaneous tracks. It has a range of 15km against aircraft and 12km against missiles. So yes, Sirius would detect an inbound AShM but at distances where only the fastest of responses (i.e. by a fully autonomous automated last-ditch hard-kill system like Phalanx and Goalkeeper and dito soft-kill systems like BAE Nulka decoy) might save the ship from being hit.
World Naval Weapon Systems, 5 Ed. - Norman Friedman - Google Boeken

Both visual/electro-optical and radar ranges are limited by the earth's curvature. The higher up on a vessel such equipment is mounted, the better its detection range (there for, for a given radar/irst, a ship like a carrier would have a slightly better detection range compared to a smaller ship like a frigate). I suppose an airborne detection platform, combined with at least some form or data sharing to surface ships if not cooperative engagement capability would be the best defence. Note that this airborne asset does not have to be a dedicated AEW asset: the Blue Kestrel on EH101 Merlin ASW helicopters, for example, can do air-to-air detection of targets as well as detection and classification of surface targets. Such an air-asset usually also has on-board ESM equipment. Spacebased assets with the ability to share data in realtime may also be valuable in this context.
World Naval Weapons Systems, 1997-98 - Norman Friedman - Google Boeken
http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/Seaspray5000E.pdf