Closest allies: Joint defence declaration of India and USA

[sankranti]

Containment is not a one shot game, its a continuing exercise. How do you think China has been contained? And what will be the relative strengths of the two countries 25 years later? Can US go it alone in Asia against China? If not, then besides Japan which is the other big country which can substantially oppose China.

US will always like to play the puppet master game rather than getting into direct conflict. Why else do you think the new found keenness for defense ties? OK, sale of arms is one factor but not the entire story.

As for tech, money and educations, we don't need a defense tie to get those.



Problem is that Russia is of no help when it comes to opposing China. That's where US scores. Recent Chinese incursions have made India look for defense partners.

China has been contained in pretty much the same way India had/has been contained i.e. building a global consensus against them.

India has been denied access to technology and money and was subject to discriminatory trade practices by the US. 60+ years after independence ware are still a developing nation. If that is not successful containment by the US, I don't know what is.

The only reason US has decided to engage us is because we have successfully built Nukes (thermonuclear too) against all odds and have successfully built a Missile that can reach US. If you look back in the past you will see that this was the same strategy the US adopted to engage with China once they too became fully nuclear and built missile that could reach US. (read up on kissinger first contact with china)

Its just history repeating itself, only we are just not as driven as China in nation building nor as stable as China, to take full advantage of our US engagement.

Even 25 years down the line I do not expect China to be able to build enough goodwill and influence globally to successfully turn the tables against US. For China to do that, it must first unshackle its own society and learn how to engage its own society in a free world.

US has shown enough guts to directly get into conflict for the past 70 years starting from World war, Europe, south Korea, Vietnam, Africa, south America, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Do you realize how absurd you sound when you say US does not directly enter conflict.

Even today US is mastering UAV technologies and AMD that will ensure minimal dangers to their armed forces and civilians.

Our engagement with the US is not defense ties, but an engagement where each party seeks what they need. That is the normal way in which any engagement takes place.

Himalayas are still the greatest barriers to any Chinese invasion than any US friendship. That and our own significant Armed forces. The whole world including China knows this.

Our greatest potential enemy continues to be the US which is why it is so important that we engage with it rather than sulk in the corner.

 

[Hulk]

Nobody minds a prostitute, but nobody wants a prostitute that sleeps around with everybody, especially when her different clients are mortal enemies. It's like India has no idea what the acceptable standards of conduct are on the international stage. I can only blame its poor, perverse, trashy upbringing.

Do you know which country Ambassador gave example of prostitutes with regards to his own country? Chinese a $$ goes on fire anytime India gets good deal. China pushed us to align more with US. We will whatever to defend our land, if that is prostitution so be it.

 

[hkdas]

Who has inspired you to think that China wants to attack you? If the Chinese suddenly embrace the madness and they will become aggressive, then they will begin from Mongolia, Taiwan and North Korea. What do you worry about? You have a nuclear weapon!



Just some knowledge of history of impires, no magic.

china won't and can't win a war with india, but there is a chance for small conflicts especially in Arunachal Pradesh. so india want a credible deterrence against china.

China has been contained in pretty much the same way India had/has been contained i.e. building a global consensus against them.

India has been denied access to technology and money and was subject to discriminatory trade practices by the US. 60+ years after independence ware are still a developing nation. If that is not successful containment by the US, I don't know what is.

The only reason US has decided to engage us is because we have successfully built Nukes (thermonuclear too) against all odds and have successfully built a Missile that can reach US. If you look back in the past you will see that this was the same strategy the US adopted to engage with China once they too became fully nuclear and built missile that could reach US. (read up on kissinger first contact with china)

Its just history repeating itself, only we are just not as driven as China in nation building nor as stable as China, to take full advantage of our US engagement.

Even 25 years down the line I do not expect China to be able to build enough goodwill and influence globally to successfully turn the tables against US. For China to do that, it must first unshackle its own society and learn how to engage its own society in a free world.

US has shown enough guts to directly get into conflict for the past 70 years starting from World war, Europe, south Korea, Vietnam, Africa, south America, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Do you realize how absurd you sound when you say US does not directly enter conflict.

Even today US is mastering UAV technologies and AMD that will ensure minimal dangers to their armed forces and civilians.

Our engagement with the US is not defense ties, but an engagement where each party seeks what they need. That is the normal way in which any engagement takes place.

Himalayas are still the greatest barriers to any Chinese invasion than any US friendship. That and our own significant Armed forces. The whole world including China knows this.

Our greatest potential enemy continues to be the US which is why it is so important that we engage with it rather than sulk in the corner.

you are right, bro.

 

[sankranti]

china won't and can't win a war with india, but there is a chance for small conflicts especially in Arunachal Pradesh. so india want a credible deterrence against china.

I think a credible deterrence is to grow a pair of balls.

 

[Amolthebest]

Nehruvian socialism passed away with him. New generation Indians prefer imperialism over socialism. That is something Russians couldn't figure out.

Well, ideological discourses aside, rumor has it that Moscow is putting pressure on Beijing to give India full SCO membership. The world is indeed strange when it goes beyond common sense!

A Russian is talking about imperialism? Dude you know what USSR did with Balcon Countries and east European countries. Dont tell me that you were not imperialist. Indo-Russian relations were based on mutual interests and even it should based on same criteria. You can not emotional blackmail us on past favors. We already given back everything. We are not Pakistan who have in eternal debt with US or China. We love Russia and We love Russian people but you just can not blame us for backstabbing as we were or are never your servants. We love Russia though

 

[thesolar65]

Here the talk is about friendship, isn't it? Well, forget about US-India, US-Russia, India-Russia or China- India and so on. Just look around you and your personal friends or next door neighbours, you will find very much similarity between personal friendship and friendships between nations.

I had been to a Rotarian meeting and the topic was about friendship. Every body was talking about sacrifice, commitment etc. When it was my fathers turn he said in his speech "If you want to test any friendship with anybody, try having some financial transaction with him. If passes the test then only he is true friendship". We have heard friends lay down their lives for others, but that is impulsive. If that person would have been alive and you start doing business with him, down the line some where he will lie to you or may cheat you. Such is the power of money.

Hope you all members who is discussing this got my point!!
@vostok, @GURU DUTT @hk das @Enemy @timetravel [MENTION=148509][Bregs][/MENTION]

 

[My-Analogous]

the offer which is something india cannot refuse. india need american technology to counter china in defense technology. in the mean time india need Russia and Russia is an old friend of india. a joint development/production of defense items with us doesn't mean that india is a pro-us country. india need more technology in defense field to counter china. china is using hacking to obtain advanced technology of us.

since 1970s russia is friend of china and india at the same time. then why not india be a friend of US and russia at the same time?

we know US is not a reliable allay, india is keen to get some high-end technology from us. JV with us will not affect the friendship with Russia

This is not a game. If India is friend of Russia then it will not be friend of US and vise versa, neither US nor Russia willing to share their technology with each other and if some country will use them then chance for stolen technology will increase.

 

[[Bregs]]

@thesolar65

Friendship between the countries is different take altogether for me, like with US in this case it seems to be maturing to a higher level as we have seen despite having differences on some issuees like Iran and Syria recently.

Another test of these close relations will repeatedly come as India despite being close to Soviets during cold war era has largely a Non aligned foreign policy in a way that its is not expected to support all the action of America in world politics

But at present in majority of areas there seems to be convergence of ideas of both countries and this is the best phase for this relationship/friendship to mature to a level where differences on any issue in future is resolved in an amicable friendly way

Another test from US side will come in the way that they are very demanding with close allies so India will be better off with friendly partner of america instead of being close ally

All in all despite the best phase during Bush Jr era that warmth has increased during the term of obama and this is a very welcome sign

i Hope both these largest democracies of world continue to nurture there friendship in a constructive way.

 

[navtrek]

You can not be friends with Russia and the United States at the same time. If India is going to strengthen cooperation with the United States - cooperating with Russia will strart to reduce.
U.S. adhere to the ancient rule - divide and conquer. The more the U.S. influence on India, the greater tensions in the relations with its neighbors, there will be local conflicts, terrorism will increase, and so on.
United States - the successor of the British Empire, and Russia - the successor of the Soviet Union. Let the Indians themselves think, with whom they had better be friends.

India will always side with Russia. We might get all the technology from else where but we owe a big deal to USSR and Russia.

 

[rafiqali]

China has been contained in pretty much the same way India had/has been contained i.e. building a global consensus against them.

India has been denied access to technology and money and was subject to discriminatory trade practices by the US. 60+ years after independence ware are still a developing nation. If that is not successful containment by the US, I don't know what is.

Certainly not the kind of containment I m talking about. It is widely accepted that the new US pivot will be Asia based, more specifically - protection of sea lanes, esp Malacca and Hormuz. That, and the coming resource competition is where US would like to contain China. And for that it needs Asian sea powers, esp Japan and India.

The only reason US has decided to engage us is because we have successfully built Nukes (thermonuclear too) against all odds and have successfully built a Missile that can reach US. If you look back in the past you will see that this was the same strategy the US adopted to engage with China once they too became fully nuclear and built missile that could reach US. (read up on kissinger first contact with china)

I m not aware of any Indian missile capable of reaching US. The best is 5000 Km (some say 8000 km). US is at least 12000 Km. TN I wont get into. India's TN capability is not accepted by all. In any case, it is absurd to suggest that US is engaging because it is scared of India.

Its just history repeating itself, only we are just not as driven as China in nation building nor as stable as China, to take full advantage of our US engagement.

Nation building is a bit more than physical infra building. Lets see where China is in 100 years when the stark effects of One Child Policy become devastatingly clear in an aged population.

US has shown enough guts to directly get into conflict for the past 70 years starting from World war, Europe, south Korea, Vietnam, Africa, south America, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Do you realize how absurd you sound when you say US does not directly enter conflict.

That was sometime back. Now its all revolutions --orange, yellow, pink --take your pick. US will certainly not fight on Indian soil if China invades.

Our engagement with the US is not defense ties, but an engagement where each party seeks what they need. That is the normal way in which any engagement takes place.

Fair enough. No one opposes tech. But excessive closeness to US will promote a reaction from China

Himalayas are still the greatest barriers to any Chinese invasion than any US friendship. That and our own significant Armed forces. The whole world including China knows this.

Even in 62, it was not too effective. Yes, we have grown , and so have they. But missiles and airforce are more important now.

Our greatest potential enemy continues to be the US which is why it is so important that we engage with it rather than sulk in the corner.

Wont call it an enemy. But excessive proximity to a superpower has its own dangers.

 

[Star Wars]

Meh...this whole thing is a farce , India will always be aligned to the BRICS nations .... Buying military products and joint defemce is two entirely different things ..

India's stance of Syria confirms this ....

 

[sankranti]

Certainly not the kind of containment I m talking about. It is widely accepted that the new US pivot will be Asia based, more specifically - protection of sea lanes, esp Malacca and Hormuz. That, and the coming resource competition is where US would like to contain China. And for that it needs Asian sea powers, esp Japan and India.

Are you aware that the US 7th Fleet is based out of Diego Garcia and that fleet alone can wipe out Indian Navy if it wants too? They can effectively seal of sea lanes too. They don't need India for jack $hit. They do have allies in Singapore, Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, ENTIRE GULF to do the job. ......... as i said, better to get rid of any illusions of grandeur.

I m not aware of any Indian missile capable of reaching US. The best is 5000 Km (some say 8000 km). US is at least 12000 Km. TN I wont get into. India's TN capability is not accepted by all. In any case, it is absurd to suggest that US is engaging because it is scared of India.

One India demonstrated intent and capability it was enough to kick start US plan B i.e. engage India to offset any potential threat. That is called Pro Active thinking or Preventive Action. Its something Mature Nations with Mature defense planners do. You get to spy on a friendly nation much more effectively than an enemy nation.

Nation building is a bit more than physical infra building. Lets see where China is in 100 years when the stark effects of One Child Policy become devastatingly clear in an aged population.

I unfortunately do not have the gift to see 100 years into the future........so no comments.

That was sometime back. Now its all revolutions --orange, yellow, pink --take your pick. US will certainly not fight on Indian soil if China invades.

US policy uses both covert and direct action. Are you implying that US is so stupid that it uses only one ? ........ US fighting on Indian soil if china attacks ? .....what the hell is that ?

Fair enough. No one opposes tech. But excessive closeness to US will promote a reaction from China

Its a chick an egg thing, one can always argue that its reaction from China that is prompting closeness with US. In any case since when did we start letting China dictate our Foreign policy and best interests ?

Even in 62, it was not too effective. Yes, we have grown , and so have they. But missiles and airforce are more important now.

Total Nonsense. India have Nukes and China of today stands to loose FAR MORE than 62. The more any nations progress the less likely they are to start wars since they stand to loose far more. This is also one of the reason why US wants to engage an Nuclear power India who has too little to loose in an Nuclear exchange.

Wont call it an enemy. But excessive proximity to a superpower has its own dangers.

Hence the term "Potential Enemy". Drinking excessive water can kill you too. Excess everything has its own dangers.

 

[Splurgenxs]

To all Russian friends

A friend to all is a friend to none. - Aristotle
All negative and positive implications are implied.

Nothing is more important to us than our Interests. If thry diverge we move apart but so far both coutres (America and Russia)
are working with us in spectacular fashion. We get C17s, Vikrant and the diminished need to setup up Additional infra for limited purposes, and u guys get the money. Simple.

As far as Tall contention between Russia and America ,we prefer (as the Chinese say) fence sitting.

 

[Shaped charge]

nations don't have friends they have interests no backstabbing crap, i dunno why chinese r so worked up about India growing closer to US,didn't u guys abandon the USSR for US in the 70s after Nixon made an offer... as for India we will never be in any camp n play ball with both camps

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

You can not be friends with Russia and the United States at the same time. If India is going to strengthen cooperation with the United States - cooperating with Russia will strart to reduce.
U.S. adhere to the ancient rule - divide and conquer. The more the U.S. influence on India, the greater tensions in the relations with its neighbors, there will be local conflicts, terrorism will increase, and so on.
United States - the successor of the British Empire, and Russia - the successor of the Soviet Union. Let the Indians themselves think, with whom they had better be friends.

Not Exactly Friend. India and Russia have a touch of easeness and friendship, not available with any other nation and will not be for the forseeble future. We know how US works.! They wont share the critical technology with any other nation. We know what happened to the Javelin anti tank missile technology transfer "promise" from the US.

India wont develop fighters with US, nor Naval ships with them nor missiles. It will be mostly high tech Gadgets, guns etc. Russia have something to gain from this. We can use the knowledge we learnt from US to the project we might develop with Russians in the Future.

India Russia ties shall be everlasting.