Churches burnt in India

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I am sorry about that. My mistake.

May be because of something I read at the WAB.

Nothing wrong.

I used to be one.

I have not seen God and I find religion creating divides.

I can see Nature and I have been with Adivasis, some of whom are Christians but are actually still close to nature. I Liked their ways and their philosophy of life.

Therefore, I believe in Nature which is to be revered since the bounties of nature is what regulates life.

Of course there is something supernatural a power that has created this world. I rather take this supernatural energy as the Creator and not what some man passes off to me as God!

Yet, I have respect for all those who think otherwise and also for their beliefs, so long as they don't impose the stuff on me!

 

[roadrunner]

You don't have to worry about digging up articles to convince me of what happens in India. It is my country & I know better. I don't even refute as to whatever happens but ofcourse if somebody tries to hijack a moral high ground to which he isn't entitled to I have a problem to that. So don't tell me that Christians in Pakistan are better off than the ones in India.

But you do claim the moral high ground. That is why you cannot accept that Christians are currently being torched in secular India.

You ask me to talk about Christian persecution in India & your link hardly has anything with the topic. isn't their enough child persecution in madrasas that you have to bother about what happens to joginis in Indian temple?

Here are few more links for you before you start alleging the reports to be fabricated by Indians & fanatical Hindus

Pakistan: Child Abuse At Madrassas

Child Abuse and Islamist Madrassas - Reader comments at DanielPipes.org

If needed more links can be produced. So instead of talking about joginis & Devdasis Talk on subject matter which is Persecution of Christians

Daniel Pipes is a great link! That must be true!

There is little doubt that bad people exist in all countries. However, you have reacted in such a way as to try and derail this thread, because you cannot accept that India is a fanatical Hindu country, at th very least, AS FANATICAL IF NOT MORE FANATICAL than Pakistan.

Before you try to derail the thread again, try answering these questions.

• Do you/can you deny that "secular" India has a problem with Christianity and co-existing with other religions?
  
• Can you honestly sit there and say that Hinduism is not a fanatical religion full of hatred and hostility to anyone that does not forcibly convert to their own cult?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

India has personal laws that discriminate on grounds of beliefs. I don't agree with it.

Indicate some!

Except ofcourse the Moslem Personal Law. That is a special dispensation since it makes India look more secular and tolerant.

To me, it is discrimination and vote bank politics.

I do disagree with it. Pakistan has secular courts and Shariat courts (where the Hudood laws (that are now no longer used), would have been used).

Why have Sharia Courts if all are equal citizens of the country?

Isn't adequate to have common civil and criminal laws as in any other non Islamic country?

Why must Islamic country impose the Sharia on non Moslems?

No other non Islamic country has religious laws.

To an extent the cartoons were a thin line even by Western laws. Freedom to express oneself, doesn't include freedom to insult. However, I couldnt care less what Danish cartoonists write. I never even went to protest it, I had a much better time elsewhere.

Your opinion, not theirs!

It matters not if you went out to protest or not. We are not talking of individuals. We are talking of a religious community. For all you know, you did not go out because it was cold and you thought more of your comfort than for anything else!

Well, Pakistan doesn't apply it to minorities. You are free to purchase alcohol in Pakistan, as a Hindu, or a Christian. They'll even provide you with your own special badge to purchase liquor..just to make you feel special

.

Who says so?

Try this that proves you are guilty of falsehood:

FAITH UNDER FIRE

Christian sentenced to death for blasphemy

After objecting to rape of believers, accused of crime against Muhammad
Posted: June 2, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Michael Ireland
© 2007 Assist News Service

LAHORE, Pakistan – A Pakistani Christian has been sentenced to death for blasphemy by the sessions court in Lahore.

According to sources in Pakistan, following the sentencing Wednesday, a large mob led by Islamic clerics responded by shouting slogans against Younis Masih and threatening anyone involved in providing security or legal assistance to "blasphemers."

Christian Solidarity Worldwide says Masih, a Christian from Chungi Amar Sadu in Lahore, was charged Sept. 10, 2005, under Section 295C of the Pakistan Penal Code. Section 295C relates to blasphemy against the Prophet Muhammad and carries the death penalty.

(Story continues below)

Although no one has yet been executed by the state for blasphemy, several have been murdered by extremists. Masih has been held in Kot Lakhpat prison since Sept. 11, 2005, where he faces regular threats to his security.

Christian Solidarity Worldwide says Pakistan's blasphemy laws are regularly misused as a means of settling scores or targeting religious minorities. Although Masih will now appeal against the sentence in the High Court, he faces death threats from extremists even while he remains in jail.

The human rights organization says Section 295C of the Pakistan Penal Code, which relates to blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammed, was introduced in 1986 by the then-ruler of Pakistan, General Zia ul-Haq. Section 295B, relating to desecration of the Koran, was introduced in 1982.

The blasphemy laws require only an accusation by one man against another for a case to be filed. In almost all cases the charges are entirely fabricated. Masih was outspoken against incidents of rape committed against Christian girls, and is a Christian himself. It is believed these were the reasons he was accused of blasphemy.

Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, executive secretary of the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance and one of Pakistan's leading human rights activists, said: "This judgment in the case of Younis Masih is an example of the blatant abuse of the blasphemy laws. The laws require absolutely no evidence, and no proof of intent, and as such they are a tool in the hands of extremists to threaten and destroy the lives of anyone they disagree with.

"In addition, the judiciary is threatened and is therefore unable to provide a fair trial. Furthermore, the safety of the accused, and of the lawyers defending them, is under constant threat. Younis Masih faces severe danger in jail. It is imperative that the international community raises this case with the Pakistani authorities as a matter of urgency to ensure that Younis Masih, and others like him, receive proper protection and a fair appeals process. Ultimately, this unjust law which is so open to abuse must be repealed."

Stuart Windsor, national director of Christian Solidarity Worldwide, said: "We are so saddened and deeply concerned to hear that Younis Masih has been sentenced to death. We will do all we can to raise his case with the Pakistani authorities and the international community. This is a blatant miscarriage of justice and the world should not stand by while an innocent man faces death."
WorldNetDaily: Christian sentenced to death for blasphemy

Why should one require a special badge to purchase liquor? Malaysia, a Moslem nation, has religious police alright, but no special badges to indicate a segregation of their population!

Please do. But don't include Pakistan in that category.

Why not?

See immediately the answer above!

I assure you that it did not happen in Mars!

 

[Bushroda]

But you do claim the moral high ground. That is why you cannot accept that Christians are currently being torched in secular India.

No Indian here did till some Pakistanis including you jumped in with the statement that Pakistani christians are betteroff than Indians.

Daniel Pipes is a great link! That must be true!

It must also be from a fanatical hindu just like J. Grant Swant's article in American Daily.

There is little doubt that bad people exist in all countries. However, you have reacted in such a way as to try and derail this thread, because you cannot accept that India is a fanatical Hindu country, at th very least, AS FANATICAL IF NOT MORE FANATICAL than Pakistan.

Final statement in your Post#31 reads as

"If you go over the last decade, I would say hundreds of Churches have been burnt in India, whilst perhaps 2 or 4 have been burnt in Pakistan."

So dude, Take a hike with your derailing the thread statement. You brought in the comparison & I merely repsonded with link which you were not even willing to acknowledge as authentic and rubbishing them with brain f@rts as fanatic Hindu in Disguisw. So there is anybody who derailed the thread its you.

Before you try to derail the thread again, try answering these questions.

• Do you/can you deny that "secular" India has a problem with Christianity and co-existing with other religions?
  
• Can you honestly sit there and say that Hinduism is not a fanatical religion full of hatred and hostility to anyone that does not forcibly convert to their own cult?

I am not here to play the question answer session with you. There are enough links I have provided in my previous posts through which I can put similar questions in regard to Islam. But, unlike you I don't generalize or concur unnecessarily.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

RR,

I don't take the moral high ground as do many others like Agnostic and others of all nationalities including Indians.

I am equally critical of my country because unless one searches one's heart, one cannot improve.

It is only a rank fool who pretends he is from the land of milk and honey!

 

[roadrunner]

Indicate some!

Except ofcourse the Moslem Personal Law. That is a special dispensation since it makes India look more secular and tolerant.

To me, it is discrimination and vote bank politics.

Article 44 of the Constitution in India calls for a Uniform Civil Code. So it's unconstitutional all these discriminatory laws.

The Indian Muslim Personal Law is discriminatory itself, as is the Hindu Personal Law. Examples are the divorce rights of men and women in MPL, and the inheritance rights in HPL. There's others though. But take the case of an Indian woman, her rights as a citizen of India will depend on whether she is Muslim or Hindu. Laws like this aren't secular, though one is free to practise as they see fit, just as one is free to be a Hindu in Pakistan. IMO, both India and Pakistan are not secular countries. Pakistan does not at least claim such.

Why have Sharia Courts if all are equal citizens of the country?

Sharia courts are referred to in those cases where religious law is thought to be best to use. Else they just use "secular" law. That's my understanding.

Isn't adequate to have common civil and criminal laws as in any other non Islamic country?

Why must Islamic country impose the Sharia on non Moslems?

No other non Islamic country has religious laws.

India has religious laws! Many others do also.

Your opinion, not theirs!

It matters not if you went out to protest or not. We are not talking of individuals. We are talking of a religious community. For all you know, you did not go out because it was cold and you thought more of your comfort than for anything else!

So I'm not a part of the religious community now?

A minority of Muslims round the world protested. A minority of this minority did some stupid things. I thought it was pretty quiet really.

Hindus have reacted just as bad to portraits of their religious figures being publicized in fact.

Who says so?

Try this that proves you are guilty of falsehood:

You've quoted the blasphemy law of Pakistan in your article. Most European countries have laws against blasphemy, even Denmark. Some seem to be dormant though, which is fair enough. However, some countries use them, Germany in 1994, Italy a couple of years ago used it against Oriana Fallaci. Polish laws are pretty much in use with Nieznalska's case currently going on. I would describe Pakistan's blasphemy laws as such, though I would hope there are laws against defamation of all religions. My point is still there though. In Pakistan, as a Hindu or a Christian, you are free to buy alcohol, or do whatever your religion permits you to do under the law.

Why should one require a special badge to purchase liquor? Malaysia, a Moslem nation, has religious police alright, but no special badges to indicate a segregation of their population!

You need a special badge so that you can be served alcohol or whatever it is you drink.

Why not?

See immediately the answer above!

I assure you that it did not happen in Mars!

Your article is irrelevant. See above also.

 

[Samudra]

There should be some courage on part of Indians here on the forum to accept that it was wrong to torch Churches by Hindu terrorists VHP and Bajrang Dal.

It was simple as that but alas it indeed required a lot of conscience to do that.

Has any Indian defended torching churches in this thread? Everybody here is for maintaining L&O. It's your rather silly insistence on associating every single problem in India to its secular status that creates issues in threads. Stop doing that and you'd find the discussion to be more useful. Honestly, it gets quite irritating because if somebody farted, you associate it with secularism even before it starts stinking!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Saturday, October 07, 2006

Deletion of Article 44 from the Constitution -By Dr T H Chowdary


1. Muslim separatism is heading for one more division of India. In 1905 the newly founded Muslim League waited upon the then Viceroy, Lord Curzon, petitioning him for a separate electorate to Muslims. The rulers readily conceded. Then, in the 1930s, the British rulers conceded the Muslims’ demand that Muslims should no longer be governed by the traditional Indian, that is Hindu law in certain matters, as in some regions of India but that the Sharia should be applied to them. In 1940, the Muslim League asserted that Muslims are not a part of the Indian nation and that India should be divided to create the Islamic state of Pakistan. They voted for it in 1946 and took to rioting on Direct Action on the 16th of August 1946. The Congress and Hindus who reposed their faith in Mahatma Gandhi were terrorised to concede the partition of India in 1947.

2. The All India Muslim Personal Law Board put forward in January 2006, a memorandum to the Prime Minister that Article 44 of the Indian Constitution enjoining a Common Civil Code for all Indian citizens should be removed and that Muslims should be governed by Sharia law. This is reversion to the1930s position. Various 'secular' parties promised reservations for Muslims and the Government of Andhra Pradesh led by the Chief Minister of a minority community, is trying to implement reservations for Muslims in government service, in admission to educational institutions and promised that it would be extended to other ‘social sectors’, which would mean separate electorate for Muslims and thereafter, to Christians. This is reversion to 1905. Just as 1905 and the 1930s and the 1940s led to the division of India, riots and direct action would again terrorise whatever Hindus may remain into accepting the demand for creation of Mugulistan comprising of Assam, about ten districts of West Bengal, the northern districts of Bihar and UP where Muslim majorities are being created, of course, with the help of 'secular' parties which are fishing for the minority’s votes.

3. It appears that slowly and inexorably whatever India is remaining will also become a Muslim-dominated land as final solution it may have to accede to Pakistan. And then Hindus will revert to their position under the ‘great grand Mogul’, Aurangazeb. Only the highly educated and lucky may emigrate to the US, Australia and perhaps even Europe to supply these countries with their intellectual labour. Would whosoever still call themselves Hindus, realize the unfolding scenario?

India Awakening: Deletion of Article 44 from the Constitution -By Dr T H Chowdary

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Article 44 of the Constitution in India calls for a Uniform Civil Code. So it's unconstitutional all these discriminatory laws.

The Indian Muslim Personal Law is discriminatory itself, as is the Hindu Personal Law. Examples are the divorce rights of men and women in MPL, and the inheritance rights in HPL. There's others though. But take the case of an Indian woman, her rights as a citizen of India will depend on whether she is Muslim or Hindu. Laws like this aren't secular, though one is free to practise as they see fit, just as one is free to be a Hindu in Pakistan. IMO, both India and Pakistan are not secular countries. Pakistan does not at least claim such.

Indeed, Personal Laws are disgusting and discriminatory.

Sadly, it is a baggage of the past and none dare change it, lest it changes the political destiny of those who change. Vote bank and survival of the fittest!

It is like Ijtihad. In the books, but cannot be changed since none can dare. Iqbal tried and was nearly declared an apostate!

Sharia courts are referred to in those cases where religious law is thought to be best to use. Else they just use "secular" law. That's my understanding.

So, it is a matter of convenience so as to "fix" a chap one way or the other?

India has religious laws! Many others do also.

Hardly applied; vigorously applied is the the Moslem Personal Law in India.

Shania Mirza's skirt length invites a fatwa and is acceptable, giving little thought that she can never achieve the standards that has given India a place in tennis, in salwar and kameez! Laws that only help in not allowing people to use their God given talent to succeed in the world!

But nothing is wrong when the Saudi princes come to India and swig away at Scotch!

So I'm not a part of the religious community now?

You must be a Moslem, but where were you when the lights went out?

A minority of Muslims round the world protested. A minority of this minority did some stupid things. I thought it was pretty quiet really.

Hindus have reacted just as bad to portraits of their religious figures being publicized in fact

.

Hardly a minority.

The Danish newsman was killed!

Yes, Hindus are learning from Moslems.

India is extra sensitive to Moslem sentiments, that it was the first country in the world to ban Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verse" merely based on book reviews!

You've quoted the blasphemy law of Pakistan in your article. Most European countries have laws against blasphemy, even Denmark. Some seem to be dormant though, which is fair enough. However, some countries use them, Germany in 1994, Italy a couple of years ago used it against Oriana Fallaci. Polish laws are pretty much in use with Nieznalska's case currently going on. I would describe Pakistan's blasphemy laws as such, though I would hope there are laws against defamation of all religions. My point is still there though. In Pakistan, as a Hindu or a Christian, you are free to buy alcohol, or do whatever your religion permits you to do under the law.

You need a special badge so that you can be served alcohol or whatever it is you drink.

It is like Ijtihad.

In the books and never practised!

Good that a Hindu or Moslem can buy alcohol, but sad that they have to hang their identification like a cow bell!

Your article is irrelevant. See above also.

Says you?


As irrelevant as what you write?

Anyway, I did not write the article!



Once again I state categorically that each country to its ways, but should you wish to start a dialogue, then it would be only fair to help you open your eyes to the reality.

No one is Holier than Thou!

All have feet of clay!

 

[Vinod2070]

Has any Indian defended torching churches in this thread? Everybody here is for maintaining L&O. It's your rather silly insistence on associating every single problem in India to its secular status that creates issues in threads. Stop doing that and you'd find the discussion to be more useful. Honestly, it gets quite irritating because if somebody farted, you associate it with secularism even before it starts stinking!

Spot on. RoadRunner, I find your focus on religion in almost every post a bit excessive. But then whatever works for you!

No one in the world has seen it fit to link LTTE with any religion except you among many other such things. May be you see what no one else can see. Could it be just ghosts?

And you need to seriously decide whether you have a problem with India adopting a high moral ground and 'claiming' to be secular or with the actual conditions in India. You seem to shift between the two as per your convenience.

 

[Spring Onion]

Has any Indian defended torching churches in this thread? Everybody here is for maintaining L&O. It's your rather silly insistence on associating every single problem in India to its secular status that creates issues in threads. Stop doing that and you'd find the discussion to be more useful. Honestly, it gets quite irritating because if somebody farted, you associate it with secularism even before it starts stinking!

Yes Bashroda and even even Sir Ray (Salim) defended it by making it a sin competetion between Pakistan and India by posting oh look two Churches were also burnt in your country and further comparing the minorities.


Sam go back and read the entire thread i had even when posted it i only discussed the Hindu fanactics' action from VHP and Bajrang Dal and i did not termed it violation of Minorities' right in India. beacuse i wanted to disucss in logical manner as you said.

It was someone from your side who once again claimed to be champion of secularizm and you also carried further and i had to reply u in that manner.

Rest it was only that you guys have to condemn and stop supporting VHS and the likes of Bajrang Dal who are indeed fanatics and tarnishing the image of india as well as killing Mulsims and now Christians.

Regards.

 

[Vinod2070]

I guess this thread has outlived it's purpose.

There has been nothing new posted and its going in circles, blaming each other.

Not unlike many other threads I suspect.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

More churches burnt in Orissa
28 Dec 2007, 0243 hrs IST,Sandeep Mishra,TNN

BHUBANESWAR: Rioters set ablaze at least six thatched prayer halls used as churches in the tribal-dominated Kandhamal district of Orissa on the fourth day of violence on Thursday, with around 700 arsonists, including some suspected Maoists, firing inside a police station where people had taken shelter.

Police said at least four persons were "feared killed" during a gunbattle between rioters and the cops at Brahmanigaon. Several people, including an IPS officer, were injured across the district even as chief minister Naveen Patnaik and DGP G C Nanda visited the troubled areas and the district headquarter of Phulbani.

The rioters also set a gram panchayat office and a few vehicles on fire. Despite heavy presence of security personnel — over 30 platoons of state police and three companies of CRPF have been deployed — the situation turned explosive in Brahmanigaon after a Christians took out a rally that was opposed by Hindu organisations. Reports reaching Bhubaneswar said rallyists beat up rival groups forcing them to take refuge at the local police station. When the cops tried to intervene, the rallyists opened fire on them as well. A gunbattle ensued in which casualties were reported from both sides.

The situation was brought under control only after a special operations group team (anti-Maoist unit) reached the spot. SP of neighbouring Gajapati district A N Sinha was hurt when a stone hit his head, while a constable sustained a bullet injury. "We suspect Maoists are trying to take advantage of the situation and were involved in the attack on the police station. Two platoons of paramilitary forces have been moved in," Kandhamal SP N Bhol told TOI. "We are rushing to the area with additional forces. The roads are blocked with felled trees, so we are trying to reach the area through Mohana in Gajapati district," Kandhamal collector B Mohapatra said, adding, in rest of the district the situation was more or less under control. Curfew, however,remained clamped in four sensitive towns, Phulbani, Baliguda, Daringibadi and Brahmanigaon.

Prayer halls were burnt in remote villages in the wee hours, a source said. "We have reports of some prayer halls getting damaged, but nothing is confirmed," revenue divisional commissioner Satyabrata Sahu said. Officials said anti-socials set Sugudabali gram panchayat office on fire. Road communication is seriously disrupted and the violence is taking place at scattered places, they said, adding that the terrain was making it difficult for cops to reach the remotest pockets.

Addressing the media soon after returning from Phulbani, Patnaik said the situation was "fast returning to normal". He also denied that the violence was spreading. "I have made a thorough review. The situation has normalised to a great extent. Peace committees have been formed and are doing their work. People's grievances and requirements are being looked into. We'll address all the issues and sort out the problems."

Patnaik refuted Congress's claims that four people had been killed and said there has been only one casualty so far. Over two dozen trouble-makers have been arrested, he said.

State Congress chief Jayadev Jena demanded CM's resignation and said violence was spreading with saffronites wreaking havoc. "The CM spoke only to officials, but did not bother to interact with commoners," he charged.

Archbishop of Orissa Raphael Cheenath, meanwhile, met the CM and demanded a CBI inquiry into the violence. He alleged that police were nowhere to be seen in the disturbed areas. Violence gripped Kandhamal on Monday following dispute over erection of a welcome arch at Brahmanigaon bazaar to celebrate Christmas. The situation went out of control after VHP called a four-hour Orissa bandh on Tuesday, protesting against an alleged attack on saffron leader Swami Laxmananda Saraswati by Christians.

Link :
More churches burnt in Orissa-India-The Times of India

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Jana Mam............ Keep the thread running .........

Comments on the 28th December events please!

 

[Vinod2070]

And so the cycle continues...

May God bless everyone. Peace....