CHINESE VIEW: Chinese and Indian Fighter Jets Face Off Amid Regional Turf War

[Guynextdoor2]

..........The platforms I named are fourth gen, the Americans have far more fourth generation variations than we do. In terms of fifth generation, we both have two.

They can be 100 years ahead of us in terms of planning, but 2 = 2 any where in the world. But then again, maybe not in your head.

No they have decided that they will have only 2 platforms and are working towards the two platforms. You have decided that you want a 5th gen fighter that you can show to the world and built one that looks like theirs. Maybe the two are the same in your head but I am yet to see an announcement from PLA sources that the vision of your 5th gen fighter is to be the 'single platform for all roles in PLA' unlike the Americans who have stated it openly.

 

[Genesis]

No they have decided that they will have only 2 platforms and are working towards the two platforms. You have decided that you want a 5th gen fighter that you can show to the world and built one that looks like theirs. Maybe the two are the same in your head but I am yet to see an announcement from PLA sources that the vision of your 5th gen fighter is to be the 'single platform for all roles in PLA' unlike the Americans who have stated it openly.

I was proven correct, 2 really doesn't equal 2. I can't believe I can have an argument on the validity of 2 = 2, but here it is. Just when I think this place can't sink any lower, wow.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

is the solved yet? the radar range was severely hampered in the absence of quartz radome i believe.

The deliveries of the required radomes have started.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

is the solved yet? the radar range was severely hampered in the absence of quartz radome i believe.

Basically, because it's going to do BVR trials right after Bahrain air show. Radars range was hampered, because of the composite nose cone previously used in Tejas. Quartz radome was ordered, but was delayed by several months. BVR trials, fitment of refueling probe and cone are basically what's left of the final certification. While this is happening, 20 pre-FOC models are being made anyway.

 

[Dazzler]

One is operational, 19 more are in production as we speak and being operationalized while it gets FOC.

Quartz radome and refueling probes were recently delivered and are being integrated as we speak. Landing gear issue is over, as the fleet isnt grounded anymore. Pre-FOC models are being made, while FOC is being carried out. Please dont talk about what's going wrong, if you dont even have half the truth.

Thats what i said, you dont even make an LSP series with one freaking aircraft in hand. Heck they cant even test it properly as their is no backup aircraft. If something goes wrong, they will have to wait even longer for others to join the batch. Till then, what will they do, restart the aircraft trials every time? Also, how many they claim to deliver by 2020? i bet the it will taremaining 19 will take several years judging by the current speed. imagine if the IAF got a complete batch of LSPs by 2020, when will the FOC be achieved? things dont look good at all.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

I was proven correct, 2 really doesn't equal 2. I can't believe I can have an argument on the validity of 2 = 2, but here it is. Just when I think this place can't sink any lower, wow.

Oh nice, then aren;t there multiple references to 'several other' 5th gen fighters in development on your side? I guess some of them will be +1 and the others will be -1 so final will be '2'.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Thats what i said, you dont even make an LSP series with one freaking aircraft in hand. Heck they cant even test it properly as their is no backup aircraft. If something goes wrong, they will have to wait even longer for others to join the batch. Till then, what will they do, restart the aircraft trials every time? Also, how many they claim to deliver by 2020? i bet the it will taremaining 19 will take several years judging by the current speed. imagine if the IAF got a complete batch of LSPs by 2020, when will the FOC be achieved? things dont look good at all.

LSP are already delivered, there's 8 of them. Tejas is currently in serial production which are going to be 20. These pre-FOC models will make up a squadron.

Why would they restart trials again? The check list is pretty much almost complete with FOC. Only thing left for FOC is BVR trials, refueling integration, it's almost at the end.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Thats what i said, you dont even make an LSP series with one freaking aircraft in hand. Heck they cant even test it properly as their is no backup aircraft. If something goes wrong, they will have to wait even longer for others to join the batch. Till then, what will they do, restart the aircraft trials every time? Also, how many they claim to deliver by 2020? i bet the it will taremaining 19 will take several years judging by the current speed. imagine if the IAF got a complete batch of LSPs by 2020, when will the FOC be achieved? things dont look good at all.

The radome refers to only part of the machine. Many other parts have been brought up to speed. The issue your raising is one that is almost solved. May I ask you, how come we hear no progress reports on those AESA integration and avionics upgrades for JF 17? French avionics being out of the question, comparisons of what you will substitute them with?

The reason why so many 'failures' of LCA are known is because India has a relentless system where every nut and bolt is taken apart. The reason why everything is smooth for JF 17 is that a lot of cutting the corners in a non-transparent system. If you had got your project audited by the Indian CAG, I can assure you it would be like getting an anaema of cactus thorns. I'm not convinced about any of the claims made by JF 17 at all.

Our balls is in our own hand, your balls is in many foreign hands, and everyone gets to squeeze it if they they want to.

In economic terms when you have your balls in your own hands, you have the tendency to squeeze them yourself. But more fundamentally, JF 17 engines are Russian, pak wanted French avionics etc. so how is this your balls in your own hands?

 

[Dazzler]

The radome refers to only part of the machine. Many other parts have been brought up to speed. The issue your raising is one that is almost solved. May I ask you, how come we hear no progress reports on those AESA integration and avionics upgrades for JF 17? French avionics being out of the question, comparisons of what you will substitute them with?

The reason why so many 'failures' of LCA are known is because India has a relentless system where every nut and bolt is taken apart. The reason why everything is smooth for JF 17 is that a lot of cutting the corners in a non-transparent system. If you had got your project audited by the Indian CAG, I can assure you it would be like getting an anaema of cactus thorns. I'm not convinced about any of the claims made by JF 17 at all.

offcourse you are not convinced, you never will be. the fact that one is flying high and serving and another does not leave the drawing board is for the world to see. regarding AESA, there are options for it including two from china and one from italy. the third block will feature an AESA say if all goes as planned. there have been some surprising additions to blk one and two which no one saw coming. so i anticipate a few surprises for coming blocks as well.


NRIET is promoting one radar that is similar to the one fitted toj-10C.

Another one marketed by NAV technologies that is quite similar to israeli elta 2052 in design and performance.


Chinese Radar Strongly Resembles Israeli Product

third is the italian version of selex vixen series customized for jf-17, already offered by selex few years ago.

 

[Kachra Seth]

May I ask you, how come we hear no progress reports on those AESA integration and avionics upgrades for JF 17? French avionics being out of the question, comparisons of what you will substitute them with?

Integrating the JF-17 with AESA radars or western avionics or engines will defeat the purpose for which JF-17 was built. It is meant to be a cheap fighter which can do some aerial bombings.
Non use of either composites or alloys, absence of full FBW capabilities, Russian outdated engines which cannot run on afterburners for too long, absence of AESA radars are all aimed towards making JF-17 dirt cheap so that struggling economies of Asia and Africa could afford it.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G - Done
24° angle of attack - Done
In-flight refuelling capability - Delivered, integrating, will be flight tested
Demonstration of Rafael ADS Derby BVR air-to-air missile. - After Bahrain air show
Demonstration of Rafael ADS Python-5 IIR close combat missile - After Bahrain air show
New design drop tanks for supersonic flight. - Done
New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance. - Delivered and integrated, flight test soon - with BVR test
Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly. - Done
Additional weapons testing, including PGMs. - Done

The integration of the gun will be skipped to Mark1a

 

[Kachra Seth]

offcourse you are not convinced, you never will be. the fact that one is flying high and serving and another does not leave the drawing board is for the world to see. regarding AESA, there are options for it including two from china and one from italy. the third block will feature an AESA say if all goes as planned. there have been some surprising additions to blk one and two which no one saw coming. so i anticipate a few surprises for coming blocks as well.


NRIET is promoting one radar that is similar to the one fitted toj-10C.

Another one marketed by NAV technologies that is quite similar to israeli elta 2052 in design and performance.




third is the italian version of selex vixen series customized for jf-17, already offered by selex few years ago.

Dude, you inducted block 1 into your air force without it having any kind of bvr capabilities.
So stop talking about 'we plan to do this and do that'.

 

[Dungeness]

In economic terms when you have your balls in your own hands, you have the tendency to squeeze them yourself. But more fundamentally, JF 17 engines are Russian, pak wanted French avionics etc. so how is this your balls in your own hands?

Chines don't do that, they have a pretty good nerve and command system, and everyone knows what they need to do and they do it diligently. We do understand where your assumption come from though.

 

[Dazzler]

Dude, you inducted block 1 into your air force without it having any kind of bvr capabilities.
So stop talking about 'we plan to do this and do that'.

dude, stop making BS busted claims, bvr integration was solved back in 2011, it was a code incompatibility between radar and sd-10a missiles as the radar could support baseline sd--10 but not the improved sd-10a that paf bought.

 

[kaykay]

when exactly is the show scheduled ?

Today at 6 PM or so( Indian time).

Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G - Done
24° angle of attack - Done
In-flight refuelling capability - Delivered, integrating, will be flight tested
Demonstration of Rafael ADS Derby BVR air-to-air missile. - After Bahrain air show
Demonstration of Rafael ADS Python-5 IIR close combat missile - After Bahrain air show
New design drop tanks for supersonic flight. - Done
New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance. - Delivered and integrated, flight test soon - with BVR test
Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly. - Done
Additional weapons testing, including PGMs. - Done

The integration of the gun will be skipped to Mark1a

26° AoA achieved so far. Which was minimum requirement. 28° AoA is desired in near future anyway( post FOC).