Chinese version of SeaRam ?

[no_name]

Some anti ship missiles also employ the ability to dodge and make quick trajectory adjustments. It would make it hard for the FL-3000 to register that in time, whereas a stream of shells from a Type 730 has more probability of hitting the missile simply due to its rate of fire and the number of shells that are put out.

.

And I think they are the subsonic ones. A missile doing wild maneuver at mach 2 plus will likely fail structually. Supersonic missiles are a bit like straight flying bullets, I think they are actually easier to intercept. I also think that supersonic missiles were designed with the soviet mass missile attack doctrine in mind. They were designed to fly fast so that when there is a group of them, it make it harder to engage all of them due to their higher closing speed, more so for the phalanx system due to their shorter engegement range and where one target has to be destroyed before it moves on to the next.

In this case the RAM missiles is superior. USN obviously will not replace for an inferior weapon platform.

For a 24 cell RAM, suppose two missiles are fired for each target, I don't think a gun based CIWS has enough ammunition to engage 12 targets without reloading. For the phalanx, it takes 30 minutes to reload ammunition.

 

[no_name]

"The Block 0 CIWS mounts (hydraulic driven) fired at a rate of 3,000 rounds per minute and they could only hold 989 rounds in the magazine drum.[4] The Block 1 CIWS mounts (hydraulic) also fired at 3,000 rounds per minute with an extended magazine drum holding 1,550 rounds. The Block 1A and newer (pneumatic driven) CIWS mounts fire at a rate of 4,500 rounds per minute and also had the larger 1,550 round magazine"

Lets take the best case for the phalanx and assume a fire rate of 3000 rounds per minute (no where near it's maximum fire rate) and magazine of 1550 rounds. That gives it 31 seconds of continuous firing time. Do you think 31 seconds is enough to engage 12 targets? (ie less than 3 seconds for each target.) Gotta remember that the engaged target may break into large pieces and continue to travel for some distance towards the ship, which the gun based phalanx will still see it as a target and may continue to engage it until it fells into the sea.

 

[S10]

And I think they are the subsonic ones. A missile doing wild maneuver at mach 2 plus will likely fail structually. Supersonic missiles are a bit like straight flying bullets, I think they are actually easier to intercept. I also think that supersonic missiles were designed with the soviet mass missile attack doctrine in mind. They were designed to fly fast so that when there is a group of them, it make it harder to engage all of them due to their higher closing speed, more so for the phalanx system due to their shorter engegement range and where one target has to be destroyed before it moves on to the next.

In this case the RAM missiles is superior. USN obviously will not replace for an inferior weapon platform.

For a 24 cell RAM, suppose two missiles are fired for each target, I don't think a gun based CIWS has enough ammunition to engage 12 targets without reloading. For the phalanx, it takes 30 minutes to reload ammunition.

In addition, using his supersonic threat theory, gun based CIWS would not be able to engage the first target until within 3 or 4km (4km is actually an overgenerous figure, but I'll let it slide). Say Tsiun Feng II or Brahmos travels at Mach 2.5, that would be roughly 850m/s. Realistically speaking, you only have 4 or 5 seconds to respond. Besides the time it takes to track and destroy a target, there is also a time delay when moving on to the next one. I would say the ship would be toast if more than 3 manoevuring targets are present.

Like I said, FL-3000 is likely the future of PLAN's CIWS.

 

[Akasa]

The key assumption here is that FL-3000 is a similar system to the RIM-116 RAM.


How is Type 730 going to engage aircrafts flying outside of its considerably shorter gun range? Do you even know what function CIWS system is used for? They are used for point defence and that purpose only.

Its role in being a point defense system is not relevant to it's comparison with the FL-3000 systems. Both have the same role, and both has their advantages and disadvantages.

However, it's a big "if" in saying that it's an equal to the RIM-116. The RIM-116 fires missiles that roll in the air, thus making it far more agile than the stabilized TY-90 missiles fired from the FL-3000N.

The United States has the technology for supersonic ramjet anti ship missile. It choose not to deploy them in operational service. Ask naval weapon system contractor and he'll be able to tell you why. They are far more prone to being detected and intercepted. It is also why China gave up the development of its own ramjet anti-ship missiles and went down similar path as the Americans.

NOT because they don't have the technology, but they found it inadequate. Americans have tested their fleet air defence against such systems. Only fanboys still think ramject anti-ship missiles are the Archilles' Heel for American navy. And for the record, SeaRAM is perfectly capable of engaging aircrafts, missiles and even surface ships.

RAM Block 1/1A

RAM has been continually improved to stay ahead of the ever-evolving threat of anti-ship missiles, helicopters, aircraft and surface craft. RAM Block 1 incorporated a new image-scanning seeker with the added capability of autonomous IR all-the-way guidance, thus countering advanced anti-ship missiles that do not employ on-board radar seekers. Enhanced digital signal processing further provides increased resistance to countermeasures and superior performance in severe IR background conditions. An advanced optical target detection device is incorporated to detect very low sea-skimming threats.

The Block 1A configuration incorporated additional signal processing capabilities to defeat helicopters, aircraft and surface craft. Block 1A is in rate production for the Consortium countries and the other countries procuring RAM.

RAM Block 2

Block 2, the next step in the spiral development of the Rolling Airframe Missile, is a kinematic and RF receiver upgrade. A larger, more powerful rocket motor and advanced control section make the missile three times more maneuverable with twice the effective intercept range. This provides the Block 2 missile with the capability to defeat high-maneuver threats as well as the ability to intercept crossing threats. An enhanced RF receiver allows detection of anti-ship missiles that employ low probability of intercept radars.
Raytheon Company: RAM

China is not going down the path of the US in terms of subsonic cruise and anti-ship missiles. The induction of the terminal supersonic C-803/805, YJ-12, YJ-22, and CJ-10 proves it. The C-802/3/5 series also employ pop up approach and dodging capabilities, something that is utilized by few supersonic missiles.

Non-sense, pure and simple. You are working under the assumption that FL-3000 can only engage a single target. If it resembles the SeaRAM, then it is a fire-and-forget type of system with much greater range (~6 to 9km, therefore response time) than gun type CIWS. There is nothing preventing the system from launch two counter-missiles at a single target to ensure a higher kill probability. More importantly, FL-3000 can engage several targets at the same time.

On the other hand, Type 730 does not have the range (~3 to 4km) or fire-and-forget capability which allows for multiple simoutaneous engagements. When you are focused on that one target, others are closing in which there is little you could do with a gun type CIWS.

RAM is a supersonic, lightweight, quick-reaction, fire-and-forget missile designed to destroy anti-ship missiles. Its autonomous dual-mode passive radio frequency and infrared guidance design, requiring no shipboard support after missile launch, uniquely provide high-firepower capability for engaging multiple threats simultaneously.
Raytheon Company: RAM

Unless it can launch multiple missiles simultaneously, I fail to see how the FL-3000N's three second delay between launches puts its versatility higher than that of the Type 730 or any other CIWS for that matter.

The Type 730 can intercept a missile and instantly swivel its gun to another target using computer aided guidance. The FL-3000N, although having the capability to track more than 1 target, has to launch missiles one-by-one (with 3 second delay between each launch), which in essence achieves the same effect as a CIWS weapon.

A gun does not need "fire and forget" capability. The Type 730 incorporates IR or ImIR guidance which allows the computer to fully track and aim the gun without any manual need.

More non-sense.

Missiles from FL-3000 are capable of independently homing in on incoming targets, where Type 730 requires its fire control radar to provide guidance. That means Type 730 would have to track the target until it is destroyed before moving on to the next one. Also, IR trackers of the 21st Century are not the same as unreliable 1960's technology that it once was. In fact, 95% intercept capability is something only gun type CIWS can dream of.

The Rolling Airframe Missile has been fired in more than 300 flight tests to date, resulting in a success rate of 95 percent. This extremely high reliability is the culmination of years of development, testing and design improvements.
Raytheon Company: RAM

I was referring to the missile itself. Tracking the target is one thing. Homing in is another. The FL-3000N's TY-90 missiles are fin stabilized, and unlike the RIM-116, do not roll in flight, therefore drastically decreasing the missile's maneuverability. Its ability to engage dodging missiles (like the Sizzler or the C-802 series) is severely impeded.

No, it is you that failed to properly learn the capability in weapon system and did not realize systems such as FL-3000 and SeaRAM are the next evolution in CIWS system. Already NATO members are shifting from Phalanx to SeaRAM. I have even posted sources in which missile type CIWS successfully engaged and destroyed both subsonic and supersonic targets. Those that fail to evolve with the changing threat environment become victims of evolution themselves. In short, your knowledge is obsolete.

If this FL-3000N is so great, then why hasn't the PLA-N deployed it on their ships and even small surface craft, even though development completed 3 years ago?

Why are the Type 054A frigates and Type 052C and Type 051C destroyers still employing the Type 730?

 

[Akasa]

In addition, using his supersonic threat theory, gun based CIWS would not be able to engage the first target until within 3 or 4km (4km is actually an overgenerous figure, but I'll let it slide). Say Tsiun Feng II or Brahmos travels at Mach 2.5, that would be roughly 850m/s. Realistically speaking, you only have 4 or 5 seconds to respond. Besides the time it takes to track and destroy a target, there is also a time delay when moving on to the next one. I would say the ship would be toast if more than 3 manoevuring targets are present.

Like I said, FL-3000 is likely the future of PLAN's CIWS.

There's a 3 second delay between each missile launch for the FL-3000N. The Type 730 or other CIWS weapons can continuously fire its cannon, thus spitting out a hail of 30 mm rounds that's bound to hit something (the Type 730 can also be IR or ImIR guided).

If a FL-3000N fires a missile and it misses, then you've got yourself a 2 second time frame before impact. Yeah, try intercepting a missile in that situation.

 

[S10]

Its role in being a point defense system is not relevant to it's comparison with the FL-3000 systems. Both have the same role, and both has their advantages and disadvantages.

However, it's a big "if" in saying that it's an equal to the RIM-116. The RIM-116 fires missiles that roll in the air, thus making it far more agile than the stabilized TY-90 missiles fired from the FL-3000N.

The FL-3000 offers a greater potential as the future direction of CIWS system, while gun type CIWS is on the decline. Is that difficult for you to understand?

China is not going down the path of the US in terms of subsonic cruise and anti-ship missiles. The induction of the terminal supersonic C-803/805, YJ-12, YJ-22, and CJ-10 proves it. The C-802/3/5 series also employ pop up approach and dodging capabilities, something that is utilized by few supersonic missiles.

Then clearly you have not been reading and keeping yourself up to date. The disadvantages of supersonic anti-ship missiles such as Brahmos and Tsiun Feng II were throughly discussed various people on Chinese forum with relevant experience. Simply put, they concurred that American's path of development was the best. The so called "terminal supersonic" missiles you mentioned are poor choice for example, and serve to counter your own point. They maintain a subsonic, sea skimming profile during their flight to target and only pick up speed in their final approach.

Read this post carefully
Ãæ¶ÔÖܱß×°±¸µÄ³¬ÒôËÙ·´½¢µ¼µ¯,Çë½ÌTGµÄÓ¦¶ÔÖ®µÀ[Page:1] - º£¾ü°æ - ³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛ̳ - ×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛ̳ Super Military Forum Of China

Unless it can launch multiple missiles simultaneously, I fail to see how the FL-3000N's three second delay between launches puts its versatility higher than that of the Type 730 or any other CIWS for that matter.

The Type 730 can intercept a missile and instantly swivel its gun to another target using computer aided guidance. The FL-3000N, although having the capability to track more than 1 target, has to launch missiles one-by-one (with 3 second delay between each launch), which in essence achieves the same effect as a CIWS weapon.

该系统采用射频＋被动寻的＋红外组合多重制导方式。对海最大拦截距离为高速6公里，低速9公里。可执行多发瞬间齐射，间隔时间不超过3秒或者单发拦截发射。舰载型主要应用对抗拦截低空掠海导弹的袭击。由于导弹具备发射后不管能力，所以理论上拥有多少发导弹就能攻击多少个目标。
Read carefully, it can launch multiple missiles at multiple targets simultaneously. The system is capable of launching all of its missile at the same time. The supposed delay after multiple launch can be eliminated through improvement in software/hardware design. Gun type CIWS's flaws are inherent in its very design. To put it into analogy, you can't push a piston type engine plane to go Mach 2 anymore than you can push a gun type system to engage multiple incoming targets over 4km. On the other hand, systems like FL-3000 and SeaRAM offer that potential/reality.

A gun does not need "fire and forget" capability. The Type 730 incorporates IR or ImIR guidance which allows the computer to fully track and aim the gun without any manual need.

Are you that dense? When the gun is firing at a target, does the fire control computer not need to track it until it is destroyed? Does the guns not need to be aimed at the target? When the gun is aimed at one single target, how it is suppose to engage others at the same time?

Fire-and-forget is the most important feature in future CIWS development, and sadly gun type systems cannot offer this, therefore it's the end of the road for them.

I was referring to the missile itself. Tracking the target is one thing. Homing in is another. The FL-3000N's TY-90 missiles are fin stabilized, and unlike the RIM-116, do not roll in flight, therefore drastically decreasing the missile's maneuverability. Its ability to engage dodging missiles (like the Sizzler or the C-802 series) is severely impeded.

See the missile? Notice only two forward fins? That means the missile has to roll in flight to ensure stability, so yes it is a "rolling frame" missile and can be as agile as RAM. The missile used, while based on TY-90, is much larger than the original. Again, you are obsolete.

If this FL-3000N is so great, then why hasn't the PLA-N deployed it on their ships and even small surface craft, even though development completed 3 years ago?

Why are the Type 054A frigates and Type 052C and Type 051C destroyers still employing the Type 730?

If Varyag is any indication, FL-3000N is being introduced into service. Also, most Type 054A, 052C, 051C entered service more than 3 years ago. Since then, only 054A are still being put to service. When FL-3000N was first advertised 3 years ago, it was a Zhuhai Airshow as a model. That is hardly an indication of "completed development". They advertised J-8F at Zhuhai in 2004, and wasn't until 2006 they start brining it into service.

Advertisement does not equal certified design.

 

[S10]

There's a 3 second delay between each missile launch for the FL-3000N. The Type 730 or other CIWS weapons can continuously fire its cannon, thus spitting out a hail of 30 mm rounds that's bound to hit something (the Type 730 can also be IR or ImIR guided).

If a FL-3000N fires a missile and it misses, then you've got yourself a 2 second time frame before impact. Yeah, try intercepting a missile in that situation.

NO! Read carefully before you post.

可执行多发瞬间齐射，间隔时间不超过3秒或者单发拦截发射。舰载型主要应用对抗拦截低空掠海导弹的袭击。由于导弹具备发射后不管能力，所以理论上拥有多少发导弹就能攻击多少个目标。

Translation: Capable of multiple simoutaneous launches, with less than 3 second delay between volley OR single intercept launch.