Chinese Type-054A Frigate compared

[Donatello]

UK sold Chile 3 Type 23 frigates (even newer than Type 22 batch 3) in 2005 for a sum total of £134 million.

Type 23 frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scant return on navy's £1.2bn frigate sale | UK news | The Guardian

The person i replied to quoted the cost of each ship at above 132 million pounds, which obviously is too much.

If Pakistan can get all 4 withing a quarter billion pounds, this would be great then!

 

[HongWu]

I think one of the issues that China and Pakistan might face when thrashing out the Type 054A deal would be the sensor suit. A lot of things including some of the Radars are supplied by Russia.

No they're not. Type 054A is fully indigenous. Let's not confuse China with India!

Dear All, I am still hesitant about the PN buying surface ships. These ships will not stand a chance against a bunch of Su-30MKIs launching a volley of Brahmos missiles. The PN should invest in subs, and strike planes tipped with nukes. That is the only way they can keep the IN at bay. These ships, Type 22 and/or Type 054A, will be sunk in the early onset of any hostilities. Take care.

Not likely. First off, MKI doesn't even fire Brahmos (despite Indian dreams otherwise). Modification of MKI to fire Brahmos is planned but will take at least 5 years to implement.

Secondly, Type 054A is an anti-air warfare frigate. It's main duty is to shoot down incoming missiles. Brahmos is nothing that China doesn't already have in its inventory of Russian missiles (Yakhont equivalent basically). And China has already tested Type 054A's effectiveness against both subsonic seaskimmers and big supersonic ramjets.

 

[Penguin]

No they're not. Type 054A is fully indigenous. Let's not confuse China with India!


Not likely. First off, MKI doesn't even fire Brahmos (despite Indian dreams otherwise). Modification of MKI to fire Brahmos is planned but will take at least 5 years to implement.

Secondly, Type 054A is an anti-air warfare frigate. It's main duty is to shoot down incoming missiles. Brahmos is nothing that China doesn't already have in its inventory of Russian missiles (Yakhont equivalent basically). And China has already tested Type 054A's effectiveness against both subsonic seaskimmers and big supersonic ramjets.

054A fully indigenous? ....
Main gun >> cloned russian AK 176
ASW torps >> acoustic-homing torpedo , possibly developed from the Yu-7 (= US Mk-46 copy).
SAM >> exact model of the air defence missile is unknown, but some reports have suggested that it may be the 38km-range Russian 9M317 (NATO codename: SA-N-12) Shtil semi-active radar-homing medium-range SAM, or its Chinese copy reportedly designated HongQi-16 (HQ-16).
RADARS:
>> The air search radar is a russian Fregat-MAE-5 (NATO reporting name: Top Plate) 3D air search radar
>> Four russian MR90 (NATO reporting name: Front Dome) F-band radars (two on top of the bridge, two on the roof of the helicopter hanger) provide guidance for the air defence missiles. Originally designed to provide fire-control for the 9M317/SA-N-7 Shtil SAM
>> A large round radome installed on top of the bridge houses the russian Mineral-ME (NATO reporting name: Band Stand) radar that provides anti-ship missile control and over-the-horizon radar acquisition and target designation of surface ships.
>> The Type 054A is reportedly fitted with a Russian MGK-335 fixed sonar suite, including Bull Horn active and Whale Tongue passive hull-mounted, medium frequency search and attack sonar.
>> The propulsion is a combined diesel and diesel (CODAD) arrangement. The system is based on four SEMT Pielstick (now MAN Diesel SA) 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel engines, one of the most advanced diesel engine designs in Europe. China imported the 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel technology in the late 1990s and is now producing the diesel locally under license at Shaanxi Diesel Factory
Type 054A Jiangkai-II Class Missile Frigate - SinoDefence.com
Licence production or reverse engineering does not equate indigenous development....

 

[applesauce]

054A fully indigenous? ....
Main gun >> cloned russian AK 176
ASW torps >> acoustic-homing torpedo , possibly developed from the Yu-7 (= US Mk-46 copy).
SAM >> exact model of the air defence missile is unknown, but some reports have suggested that it may be the 38km-range Russian 9M317 (NATO codename: SA-N-12) Shtil semi-active radar-homing medium-range SAM, or its Chinese copy reportedly designated HongQi-16 (HQ-16).
RADARS:
>> The air search radar is a russian Fregat-MAE-5 (NATO reporting name: Top Plate) 3D air search radar
>> Four russian MR90 (NATO reporting name: Front Dome) F-band radars (two on top of the bridge, two on the roof of the helicopter hanger) provide guidance for the air defence missiles. Originally designed to provide fire-control for the 9M317/SA-N-7 Shtil SAM
>> A large round radome installed on top of the bridge houses the russian Mineral-ME (NATO reporting name: Band Stand) radar that provides anti-ship missile control and over-the-horizon radar acquisition and target designation of surface ships.
>> The Type 054A is reportedly fitted with a Russian MGK-335 fixed sonar suite, including Bull Horn active and Whale Tongue passive hull-mounted, medium frequency search and attack sonar.
>> The propulsion is a combined diesel and diesel (CODAD) arrangement. The system is based on four SEMT Pielstick (now MAN Diesel SA) 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel engines, one of the most advanced diesel engine designs in Europe. China imported the 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel technology in the late 1990s and is now producing the diesel locally under license at Shaanxi Diesel Factory
Type 054A Jiangkai-II Class Missile Frigate - SinoDefence.com
Licence production or reverse engineering does not equate indigenous development....

you are correct, many of the systems are based or license production from Russian origins, however while this matters for export reasons, for china it is less of an issue as these things arnt imported they are produced in china. as for exports china has shown by systems on board vessels such as the type-052C that china is fully capable of making its own sensors and guns it is only a matter of having a smaller(thus less capable) variant made for the smaller 054 sized vessel which given that they have already developed the larger more capable version the smaller version should be easier by multitudes to develop

 

[tanlixiang28776]

People still don't understand what based on do they. The m 16 was also based on the first Chinese gun but it certainly doesn't mean they are the same.
The important thing is China doesn't have to beg anyone for parts on the Frigate. That is the importance of being indigenous.

 

[Obambam]

054A fully indigenous? ....
Main gun >> cloned russian AK 176
ASW torps >> acoustic-homing torpedo , possibly developed from the Yu-7 (= US Mk-46 copy).
SAM >> exact model of the air defence missile is unknown, but some reports have suggested that it may be the 38km-range Russian 9M317 (NATO codename: SA-N-12) Shtil semi-active radar-homing medium-range SAM, or its Chinese copy reportedly designated HongQi-16 (HQ-16).
RADARS:
>> The air search radar is a russian Fregat-MAE-5 (NATO reporting name: Top Plate) 3D air search radar
>> Four russian MR90 (NATO reporting name: Front Dome) F-band radars (two on top of the bridge, two on the roof of the helicopter hanger) provide guidance for the air defence missiles. Originally designed to provide fire-control for the 9M317/SA-N-7 Shtil SAM
>> A large round radome installed on top of the bridge houses the russian Mineral-ME (NATO reporting name: Band Stand) radar that provides anti-ship missile control and over-the-horizon radar acquisition and target designation of surface ships.
>> The Type 054A is reportedly fitted with a Russian MGK-335 fixed sonar suite, including Bull Horn active and Whale Tongue passive hull-mounted, medium frequency search and attack sonar.
>> The propulsion is a combined diesel and diesel (CODAD) arrangement. The system is based on four SEMT Pielstick (now MAN Diesel SA) 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel engines, one of the most advanced diesel engine designs in Europe. China imported the 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel technology in the late 1990s and is now producing the diesel locally under license at Shaanxi Diesel Factory
Type 054A Jiangkai-II Class Missile Frigate - SinoDefence.com
Licence production or reverse engineering does not equate indigenous development....

If you have to look at it this way, then please add "Rare earth minerals" into the equation. I wonder how many of the western products (civilian or military grade) are produced out of it? Now tell me about indigenous development thank you.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

If you have to look at it this way, then please add "Rare earth minerals" into the equation. I wonder how many of the western products (civilian or military grade) have from it? Now tell me about indigenous development thank you.

They can mine it but self reliance would take decades

 

[Obambam]

They can mine it but self reliance would take decades

Yep, it will be costly and time consuming to setup the facilities to mine it, then comes pollution. They would have to consider whether the amounts mined is enough to satify the demand for it. I would rather they mine it themselves since China makes hardly anything from selling them.

 

[Penguin]

If you have to look at it this way, then please add "Rare earth minerals" into the equation. I wonder how many of the western products (civilian or military grade) are produced out of it? Now tell me about indigenous development thank you.

Minerals aren't developed (not a product of the mind), just exploited. Mining techniques on the other hand are. Besides, I wasn't the one who started boasting about indigenousness in the first place. Further, this isn't an East v West topic but a case where someone makes a claim which imho isn't correct. So, let's not sidetrack.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Minerals aren't developed (not a product of the mind), just exploited. Mining techniques on the other hand are. Besides, I wasn't the one who started boasting about indigenousness in the first place. Further, this isn't an East v West topic but a case where someone makes a claim which imho isn't correct. So, let's not sidetrack.

It is correct as the type 54A uses entirely Chinese designed and produced parts even if they are based or similar to other systems. We can produce as many as we want even if their are embargoes.

 

[Penguin]

It is correct as the type 54A uses entirely Chinese designed and produced parts even if they are based or similar to other systems. We can produce as many as we want even if their are embargoes.

So, if I understand your use of the term correctly, fully indigenous refers to production rather than development. Well, that's one way of looking at it.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

There was no ToT they had to be developed independently. What is it that you don't understand.

 

[applesauce]

So, if I understand your use of the term correctly, fully indigenous refers to production rather than development. Well, that's one way of looking at it.

well the thing is the systems are developed from the base system obtain from russia(or elsewhere) for instance china makes license production of mig 21s then decades later makes j-7p Russia sure isnt gonna be able to tell china they cant sell to someone who wants to buy. so the who owns the design becomes fuzzy, but yes they absolutely do have russian origin

 

[Aamir Hussain]

So this means that you can sell the Type 054A frigate with all its sensor and weapons suite intact as in its final configuration for Chinese Navy to Pakistan Navy?

 

[applesauce]

So this means that you can sell the Type 054A frigate with all its sensor and weapons suite intact as in its final configuration for Chinese Navy to Pakistan Navy?

there are some stuff that would need to be changed, for instance i believe the sonar is pure Russian, however the chinese equivalents are readily available though i do not know how well the Chinese equivalents perform.