Chinese Jet Crash: Incompatible Russian Engine or Industrial Deficiency?

[CAPRICORN-88]

Short lifespans, MTBO, stalling in midair are now an OPEN SECRET among operators of the SU-27 series and its variants.

Example. Only 5 SU-30MKM (although RMAF operates 18) are operational at any one time as the rest are in maintenance or waiting for spare replacement AL-31F engines from Moscow.

 

[ptldM3]

Short lifespans, MTBO, stalling in midair are now an OPEN SECRET among operators of the SU-27 series and its variants.

Example. Only 5 SU-30MKM (although RMAF operates 18) are operational at any one time as the rest are in maintenance or waiting for spare replacement AL-31F engines from Moscow.

Right, and Russia has been flying dozens of sorties a day for almost a year, day and night out of Syria using SU-34, SU-30s, SU-35s and SU-24s by your account they should all be grounded or just falling out of the sky.

Also take into account that operating equipment in war time takes more of a toll on aircraft then in piece time. In Syria, the conditions are harsh, with things such as sand being sucked into engines, on takeoff aircraft often use their afterburners because of heavy weapons loads and the short runways which shortens the life of an engine and requires more frequent MTBO, aircraft have no hangers and leaving them out in the sun can cause damage. Moreover because of the constant sorties the maintenance is at best basic. Yet, surprise....Russian aircraft keep flying combat missions each day and zero have crashed due to mechanical problems.

In just the first 5 months Russia has flown 9000 combat sorties. Probably more sorties then Malyasian SU-30s fly in a year during piece time and all Russin aircraft are doing just fine. People like you or a few other Chinese members can trash talk and blame everything on Russian engines but facts speak for themselves.


Also, canyou can back your claim with a reliable source? If this has any truth it sounds more like poor planning and logistics on the part of the Malyasian. How do 13 SU-30s all need engine overhauls or replacements all at the same time? The answer would be that they would not. Why would Malyasia wait for spares for the SU-30? If they had some competent people in the Air Force they would order those parts ahead of time and schedule maintanance in small blocks instead of grounding the entire fleet. Aircraft can operate long past its recommended scheduled maintenance so grounding 13 aircraft is just poor planing. But then again based what I know about aircraft operations and maintanance and the fact that Sukhois have conducted thousands of sorties over Syria, I know not to take your claim serious.

 

[Michael Corleone]

What about the Chinese manufacturing process? They now make world class consumer products like the one plus 3, Lenovo tablets and laptops, SoundPEATS earphones etc. Please don't make such comments.

Electronics and highly enriched alloys are two different things... and I have the right to sound my concerns.

Right, and Russia has been flying dozens of sorties a day for almost a year, day and night out of Syria using SU-34, SU-30s, SU-35s and SU-24s by your account they should all be grounded or just falling out of the sky.

Also take into account that operating equipment in war time takes more of a toll on aircraft then in piece time. In Syria, the conditions are harsh, with things such as sand being sucked into engines, on takeoff aircraft often use their afterburners because of heavy weapons loads and the short runways which shortens the life of an engine and requires more frequent MTBO, aircraft have no hangers and leaving them out in the sun can cause damage. Moreover because of the constant sorties the maintenance is at best basic. Yet, surprise....Russian aircraft keep flying combat missions each day and zero have crashed due to mechanical problems.

In just the first 5 months Russia has flown 9000 combat sorties. Probably more sorties then Malyasian SU-30s fly in a year during piece time and all Russin aircraft are doing just fine. People like you or a few other Chinese members can trash talk and blame everything on Russian engines but facts speak for themselves.


Also, canyou can back your claim with a reliable source? If this has any truth it sounds more like poor planning and logistics on the part of the Malyasian. How do 13 SU-30s all need engine overhauls or replacements all at the same time? The answer would be that they would not. Why would Malyasia wait for spares for the SU-30? If they had some competent people in the Air Force they would order those parts ahead of time and schedule maintanance in small blocks instead of grounding the entire fleet. Aircraft can operate long past its recommended scheduled maintenance so grounding 13 aircraft is just poor planing. But then again based what I know about aircraft operations and maintanance and the fact that Sukhois have conducted thousands of sorties over Syria, I know not to take your claim serious.

Maybe just the Malaysians are purely lacking in maintenance budget or the after sales service of Moscow is really poor... but definitely agree with your comment

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Right, and Russia has been flying dozens of sorties a day for almost a year, day and night out of Syria using SU-34, SU-30s, SU-35s and SU-24s by your account they should all be grounded or just falling out of the sky.

Also take into account that operating equipment in war time takes more of a toll on aircraft then in piece time. In Syria, the conditions are harsh, with things such as sand being sucked into engines, on takeoff aircraft often use their afterburners because of heavy weapons loads and the short runways which shortens the life of an engine and requires more frequent MTBO, aircraft have no hangers and leaving them out in the sun can cause damage. Moreover because of the constant sorties the maintenance is at best basic. Yet, surprise....Russian aircraft keep flying combat missions each day and zero have crashed due to mechanical problems.

In just the first 5 months Russia has flown 9000 combat sorties. Probably more sorties then Malyasian SU-30s fly in a year during piece time and all Russin aircraft are doing just fine. People like you or a few other Chinese members can trash talk and blame everything on Russian engines but facts speak for themselves.


Also, canyou can back your claim with a reliable source? If this has any truth it sounds more like poor planning and logistics on the part of the Malyasian. How do 13 SU-30s all need engine overhauls or replacements all at the same time? The answer would be that they would not. Why would Malyasia wait for spares for the SU-30? If they had some competent people in the Air Force they would order those parts ahead of time and schedule maintanance in small blocks instead of grounding the entire fleet. Aircraft can operate long past its recommended scheduled maintenance so grounding 13 aircraft is just poor planing. But then again based what I know about aircraft operations and maintanance and the fact that Sukhois have conducted thousands of sorties over Syria, I know not to take your claim serious.

Well. Calm down. What you wrote may be true but it merely demonstrate that Russia Air Force is still a very effective Air Force with good logistical support and a huge pool of highly skilled maintenance engineering personnel.
Russia Air Force has never revealed how frequent they swapped the motors for these fighters, MTBO, lifespans, etc. Since these products are manufactured by Russia Defense Industries, the Russian Air Force will be given TOP PRIORITY, no doubt, in these situations.

However the reputation and the problems, operators of the SU-30 variants with its AL-31F series does not disappeared because of that.

In March 2015, after the entire SU-30MKI fleet was grounded for safety reason and inspection, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar revealed that the twin-engine SU-30MKI have serious failure-prone motors and its breakdown frequency is very alarming.

In its 2015 report from HAL, India to NPO Saturn, HAL listed 69 identified failures in the AL-31F which included metal fatigue leading to premature bearing failures, lack of oil pressure, excessive vibrations, etc. This resulted in POOR SERVICEABILITY and low availability of aircraft for normal operation at any given time.

Electronics and highly enriched alloys are two different things... and I have the right to sound my concerns.


Maybe just the Malaysians are purely lacking in maintenance budget or the after sales service of Moscow is really poor... but definitely agree with your comment

There is NO MAYBE in all these but factual event.

So you see RMAF is not alone with these problem and the Malaysian Defense Minister have even approaches China to assist them in the maintenance of these engines but due to covert agreement between China and Moscow, the Chinese declined. In June this year Vietnam Air Force reported one of its SU-30 MK2 crashed and went missing.

BTW all the AL-31F engine have to be returned back to Moscow for maintenance and Moscow will send replacement spare motor.

China is the only nation that never send their AL-31F series engines back to Russia as these engines are refurbished and maintained at Xian.

 

[Michael Corleone]

Well. Calm down. What you wrote may be true but it merely demonstrate that Russia Air Force is still a very effective Air Force with good logistical support and a huge pool of highly skilled maintenance engineering personnel.
Russia Air Force has never revealed how frequent they swapped the motors for these fighters, MTBO, lifespans, etc. Since these products are manufactured by Russia Defense Industries, the Russian Air Force will be given TOP PRIORITY, no doubt, in these situations.

However the reputation and the problems, operators of the SU-30 variants with its AL-31F series does not disappeared because of that.

In March 2015, after the entire SU-30MKI fleet was grounded for safety reason and inspection, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar revealed that the twin-engine SU-30MKI have serious failure-prone motors and its breakdown frequency is very alarming.

In its 2015 report from HAL, India to NPO Saturn, HAL listed 69 identified failures in the AL-31F which included metal fatigue leading to premature bearing failures, lack of oil pressure, excessive vibrations, etc. This resulted in POOR SERVICEABILITY and low availability of aircraft for normal operation at any given time.



There is NO MAYBE in all these but factual event.

So you see RMAF is not alone with these problem and the Malaysian Defense Minister have even approaches China to assist them in the maintenance of these engines but due to covert agreement between China and Moscow, the Chinese declined. In June this year Vietnam Air Force reported one of its SU-30 MK2 crashed and went missing.

BTW all the AL-31F engine have to be returned back to Moscow for maintenance and Moscow will send replacement spare motor.

China is the only nation that never send their AL-31F series engines back to Russia as these engines are refurbished and maintained at Xian.

So when the engines are maintained by china... Russia can't put a warranty on that engine... same with a phone... if you buy an iPhone and broke the screen... replacing it from a shop and not Apple will void its warranty... so I don't see any reason to complain about the engines now that you bring up the fact that Chinese don't send their engines for maintenance back to Russia.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

So when the engines are maintained by china... Russia can't put a warranty on that engine... same with a phone... if you buy an iPhone and broke the screen... replacing it from a shop and not Apple will void its warranty... so I don't see any reason to complain about the engines now that you bring up the fact that Chinese don't send their engines for maintenance back to Russia.

As a matter of fact, China can as the crash J10B was indeed equipped with a brand new AL31FN-M2 engine when it stalled in midair.

Using iPhone broken screen as an analogy to explain your argument is both illogical and flawed as

1. An iPhone screen was broken, most likely it is the user fault e.g. he/she dropped it or perhaps abused it. In any case warranty will be void. However it the iPhone overheats constantly and failed to function normally, it is entirely a different matter.

2. Until today, China has never made any claims from Salyut but military observers were the one who made those comments based on findings. That is why Russia always designed their fighter planes using twin engines.
In fact improvisation to the AL31F engines series by the Xian Refurbishment Plant has extended the lifespan of these engines as one can says without any doubt, China has a more advance military manufacturing complexes than those of the Russian.

It is NOT the Chinese that is complaining but the other operators that depended on Moscow for maintenance of these warplanes.

 

[Michael Corleone]

As a matter of fact, China can as the crash J10B was indeed equipped with a brand new AL31FN-M2 engine when it stalled in midair.

Using iPhone broken screen as an analogy to explain your argument is both illogical and flawed as

1. An iPhone screen was broken, most likely it is the user fault e.g. he/she dropped it or perhaps abused it. In any case warranty will be void. However it the iPhone overheats constantly and failed to function normally, it is entirely a different matter.

2. Until today, China has never made any claims from Salyut but military observers were the one who made those comments based on findings. That is why Russia always designed their fighter planes using twin engines.
In fact improvisation to the AL31F engines series by the Xian Refurbishment Plant has extended the lifespan of these engines as one can says without any doubt, China has a more advance military manufacturing complexes than those of the Russian.

It is NOT the Chinese that is complaining but the other operators that depended on Moscow for maintenance of these warplanes.

When someone can use oneplus as an example... I don't see why I can't use iPhone as one.

Anyways isn't those engines manufactured under license by china?

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

When someone can use oneplus as an example... I don't see why I can't use iPhone as one.

Anyways isn't those engines manufactured under license by china?

Nothing wrong really except in your case, the example given as I clearly stated is a wrong analogy.

Have a good day.

 

[Michael Corleone]

Nothing wrong really except in your case, the example given as I clearly stated is a wrong analogy.

Have a good day.

Have a nice day.

 

[Deino]

Reportedly another J-10 down due to birdstrike ... pilot ejected safely.

http://alert5.com/2016/10/01/j-10-from-plaaf-24th-fighter-division-crashes/

 

[Sanchez]

Russian engines and warplanes have been the cornerstones of PLAAF for decades. Not long ago they were more reliable than our home made stuff, especially engines. Chinese have learnt and made big progresses in aviation industry, in particular, jet engines. We believe that we'll catch Russians, and eventually reach top standards.

By the way J-11a is using AL-31F engines, and J-11b pws-10 engines. AL-31N and upgrades are exclusively for J-10s. J-20 uses prototypes of home made pws-10 variant engines.

 

[Deino]

...J-20 uses prototypes of home made pws-10 variant engines.

No ... just look at the latest images, clearly an AL-31FN or a derivate.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Lets stop with the poor Russian engine quality rhetoric or blaming every Chinese jet crash on Russian engines when the cause of the crash could literally be 100 different things. Russian aircraft such as Mig-29s or Sukhois are some of the most widely used in the world and crashes are rare, and often not related to mechanical issues. Crashes happen in every Air Force especially the larger Air Force's that fly high hours. A lot of the time it has nothing to do with the engine failing on their own but with things like bird strikes or pilot error or even pilots blacking out which is what caused a few Russian crashes over the years.


Poor maintenance or improper enstalation can cause engine problems, so if a Russian engine fails due to either of the above mentioned who is at fault?

If a bird strike suddenly causes an engine to stop is it Russia's fault? If there is a problem with Chinese made fuel delivery or software that causes an engine to stop, is it Russia's fault? What about pilot error or a pilot blacking out? Or dozens of other none engine related issues? It could also be the fly-by-wire system, of which some Sukhois like Indian and Chinese use their own.

If the J-15s that crashed used Russin engines, it would, by default, be blamed on the engines.

sir he is patriotic blind, he don't understand you, you have a experience in almost all field

What valid reason? First you lied that there is no Russian jet crashed by Russian which I took 3s from Google to prove you wrong.

Yes, we are not buying any more. Those are left over. Your superpowa Russian is lacking behind everything. You are still living in the 80s thinking Russian is ahead in a lot of tech and quality. You shall open your eyes big and see the real world. Now is between US and China battle out the best.

i must say you are too much patriotic blind, they have the experience in almost all field, you can't deny this fact, you are just entering jet engine development arena from your own

 

[Beast]

sir he is patriotic blind, he don't understand you, you have a experience in almost all field


i must say you are too much patriotic blind, they have the experience in almost all field, you can't deny this fact, you are just entering jet engine development arena from your own

As if China is making jet engine on its first day? It just that PLAAF set the bar too high.

 

[WarFariX]

j10 engine problem plus airframe maintainence headache