Chinese Flanker Family: J-11, J-16 ... Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MKK

[hurt]

well here you are talking about a 16 ton engine....and I am talking about 2*9 tons means 18 tons......even though J10B will be equipped with single 16 ton engine, it will be still inferior to 2*90 tons....again sencma is working on a 110KN variant too...I will get back to you once I will find that source...that will lead to 2*11=22tons....

you only say 'will',you are always in 'will'

 

[S10]

well here you are talking about a 16 ton engine....and I am talking about 2*9 tons means 18 tons......even though J10B will be equipped with single 16 ton engine, it will be still inferior to 2*90 tons....again sencma is working on a 110KN variant too...I will get back to you once I will find that source...that will lead to 2*11=22tons....

You haven't even signed the deal yet, meanwhile the J-10B is already finishing up trials. The main problem of your country is that you always live in your future plans, not in the present.

 

[xuxu1457]

how many J-11 and J-10 China force has??
from this exercise, 108 J-10+J11 from 14 Aviation Regiments, means choose 7 from one aviation regiment, 1/4 of one aviation regiment(108*4=432). and also has one J10 imaginary enemy aviation regiment(28) and one J-11 imaginary enemy aviation regiment(28), another one J-10 +J-11 aviation regiment in pilot training center(28);
So PLAF has 108*4+28*2+28=516 J-10+J11

and PLAN has 2 J-11 aviation regiments and 1 J-10 aviation regiment, about 70

So PLAF and PLAN have 586 J-11 and J-10 now

 

[Akasa]

well rafale's AESA is known to everyone....while there is no proof about your 1200 T/R AESA...last time you guys 'claimed' that but unfortunately that radar happened to be a PESA...LOLz....now come to engine part...right now J10 is equipped with a engine having 123KN thrust...where as rafale is having two engines having 150KN thrust combined....by the time J10B would be equipped with better engine,Indian rafales also be equipped with better engines....as that is planned to replace the current engines with m88-2 engines which have thrust more than 180KN combined.......and would you please mention the 'sensor fusion' where rafale is inferior???

Here, straight from the manufacturer itself, the J-10B has AESA and 1200 T/R modules:

China has built many fighter based AESA radars already and the one for the J-10B was selected via competition since it suited the aircraft perfectly. The other AESA radars went to the J-15, J-11B, J-16 instead.

I'm going to be lenient here and not ask for sources about Rafale's AESA, but the largest figure I've come across is 880 and I've seen none higher.

First of all, the WS-10B on the J-10B has a thrust of 136 kN and the twin engines on the Rafales will add a hugea amount of weight. That is going to negate the advantages of having twin engines in the first place. NOt to mention that the J-10B incorporates a significant amount of composites.

The J-10B's sensor fusion comes into play during BVR warfare, where situational awareness is important. The J-10B's electronics are solid state, and all the aircraft's monitors are fed directly into the cockpit, which is HMDS compatible. The J-10B in fact incorporates a significant portion of scaled down fifth generation technology under its skin.

 

[Lyrical Mockery]

Magnificent pictures. Love the colours.

 

[SinoChallenger]

but again the Indian rafale will be equipped with better engine 'M88-3' which is having thrust more than 180KN combined....even one TVC engine variant is being developed but I doubt that India will opt for that....so no j10b advantage over rafale regarding TWR.

In the time it took india to choose a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft, China already developed a 5th generation aircraft. india simply doesn't have the money to buy Rafale because it is poorer than Sub-Saharan Africa. By the time india actually signs the deal, China will already have 500+ J-20 and J-31.

 

[Storm Force]

Sino

this is not true and you know it

In the time it took india to choose a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft, China already developed a 5th generation aircraft. india simply doesn't have the money to buy Rafale because it is poorer than Sub-Saharan Africa. By the time india actually signs the deal, China will already have 500+ J-20 and J-31.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...shes-j-10-plaaf-exercise-6.html#ixzz2EgKHjxNk

Whislt i agree there are hundreds of milions of poor african style there is GREAT DEAL OF MONEY IN INDIA NOW

i AGREE INDIA takes too long inducting military hardware both indengious and import

 

[Su-11]

DEBUNKING OF CHINESE WET DREAMS ABOUT J 10B SUPERIOTY OVER RAFALE

DEBUNKING OF CHINESE WET DREAMS ABOUT J 10B SUPERIOTY OVER RAFALE

Chinese claims that i quote



I)The J-10B incorporates 1200 T/R AESA, which is larger than the 880 T/R RBE-2,

ans:
well

1st of all there is a lot of uncertanity about whether J10b really poses AESA or PESA .ok lets us assume what NIET claims is
correct that J10b indeed has an AESA radar but still we dont have any accurate infos about it's specification like detection range ,scan rate ,peak power,

but we do get some idea about china's AESA radar from this chinese source that it may be having 1152 T/R modules

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055450.gif

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055619.gif

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055270.gif

AESA radar for J-10B will have 1152 T/R module

well it's didn't signify any thing about it's detection range ,scan rate ,peak power, T/R modules compostion whther GaAs or GaN ??

As the article described, the aesa radar configuration can be changed according to the nose size of the aircraft, for example, different T/R number for J-10 and J-11 .But still a long way to go for china to build an AESA radar of a fighter comparable in technology with US or European standard especially in terms of LPI(low probabilty of intercept) & electronic jamming.

also J 10b radar which we saw in net is a test model of AESA radar not a full production AESA radar which has around 8 IFF
dipole antenna in the main array each having capabilty of handling 2 targets at the same time which means 16 targets simultaneosly(according to WIKIpedia which the chinese members often say a very reliable source )
in comparsiion RBE 2 aesa radar can track upto 40 air targets in look down & look up aspects in all weather under intense electronic environment

meanwhile

rafale though claimed to have 1000 T/R modules but Pics say it has around 880 T/R modules but that doesnt mean J10's aesa radar becomes superior as greater size radar may be powerful but that doesnt mean technologically superior.
Well the quality of /or technology used to built T/R module of an AESA radar is more important than numbers as it should be more reliable .Well Su 30 mki bars radar even if it's a PESA radar is a very powerful radar with long detection range but it is technologically inferior to AESA radar.






advantage of RBE 2 AESA radar
1) SAR (synthetic aperature mode)

2)MMIC (mono lithic microwave integrated circuits )/GaAs (gallium arsenide) technology T/R modules
in future it may be built with GAllium nitride modules with sat com abilty
Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies



3) it creates a 3 dimensional ground map covering wide area forward of the aircraft during low altitude penetration mission

4) It's has much better LPI which is more important in todays aerial combat as todays fighter /Awacs ESM (electronic support
measures) or RWR (radar warning receiver) system are more powerful in detecting radar waves of fighter aircraft exposing it's cover or location in air which can be fatal in aerial combat.


5) It along with spectra system increases rafale's electronic jamming capabilty even further

6) enhanced detection of low observable targets & improved resistance to electronic jamming

7) much better 5th gen System core / COTS for faster computation

Conclusion
U just cant compare the technological experience of china in buiding AESA radar with the french Thales which have decades of experience in building radar starting from Mirage 2000 to rafale rbe radar.If thats was not the case why would have pak airforce officials died to have french avionics in their JF17 in comparision to chinese



II)INCREASED CONCENTRATION OF COMPOSITES

ans:
& thats absolutely B.S
J10b' s composites concentration is no way greater than Rafale infact dassault itself claims rafale's composite concentration is more than 70 %
Optimized airframe

Hexcel company of france which supplies composties to rafale are pioneer in developing composites for aircraft meanwhile god knows what is the standard of chinese composites .????
Hexcel Composites - France
Hexcel.com - Carbon fiber and composites for aerospace, wind energy and industrial







III)BETTER RAM COATING


Ans:
another garbage assumption!!

rafale has much high quality RAM coating than j10 ,and what cheap quality RAM coating china uses we can see from the
pics of J20 when white flecks or patches are visible on plane surface when RAM shed off it's surface.Only J20 looks shiny in
photoshop pics only.

infact RAM coating can be seen in such places in rafale where u dont find in j10b
like external refuelling probe ,


IV)DSI

ANs:
yes 1 innovative thing for J10b
DSI has an advantage in performance & some aspects in stealth as it removes the gap present in between the diverter blade
& fuselarge of the plane.but to be fair enough it has no major role in combat.

But some analyst says DSI cant withstand mach 2+ Speeds which is yet to be proven ???? optimum speed for DSI is around
MACh 1.6-1.7 like that we see in jf 17 & F-35 So it needs to be seen can J10b achieve mach 2+ speed which J10A claims to have



V)136 Kn ENGINE

ans:
WS 10A 132 Kn engine right from the very beginnning has been under lot of scrutiny though chinese are determined to induct it no matter how good or bad it performs.Though WS 10b has been boasting of 136 Kn along with TVC which is still in development .Yes they have inducted WS 10a engines in J11b & even j-15 is going to have those engines ,but those are twin engine fighters
meanwhile inducting a single INDIGENIOUS engine fighter hasnt been so easy for chinese may be inducting a twin engine fighter with indigeniuos engines is more safer & reliable in comparision to a single indigenous engine fighter.Well same goes for WS 13engines i think for Jf17 also .& that too rumours ofchinese buying russian engines keep on popping in the media or internet every now & then .




infact serious misconception exists in the mind of our chinese friends about WS 10A 136kn advantage over Scnema M88 3 engine

u should understand thrust to weight ratio of plane is more important than thrust of engine of a plane

which rafale Thrust/weight ratio : 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) excels in comparision to
J10b Thrust/weight ratio : 0.96 (with AL-31); 1.017 (with WS-10A) thaanks to it's twin engines fighter


other advantages of Rafale's M88 3 /M88 eco engines

1) it can supercruise but WS 10A no

2) it has far less IR signature than WS 10A thanks to it's 2 cooling channels

3) it's better engine TBO

4) scenema FADEC is much superior to WS 10a




VI)Mach 2 speed

Ans:
another funny ideology i think one should understand that plane cannot attain mach 2 speed every time if it does that it would be through help of after burner the plane would ran out of entire fuel stored in it & it would increase plane's IR
signature a lot which would be visible by enemy' IRST like rafale's FSO which is claimed to be capable of detecting IR signatures of plane from 120km .

well it is much better to have supercruise planes which doent need after burners to maintain speed which rafale has .If thats
the case then Mirage 2000 which has a top speed well above mach2+ would be superior to F-35 which has mach 1.7 as top speed

VII)20300 m service ceiling

ANS:
i would rather say it's vintage aerial combat ideology our chinese friends beleive that having a faster plane with higher ceiling would help them to release BVR missiles at such height which would give their BVR missiles more kinetic energy with more range & they would destroy rafale with it's SD 10 A or B misssiles at much longer range & rafale pilots would be sitting ducks & would not be having any self protection suite like SPECTRA in order to save their A$$es .LOOLLZ


well it's true that indeed BVR missiles range increase at high altitudes & with increased speed but it doent increase it's
kill probabilty of BVraam missile . Infact Kill probabilty of a missile depends upon the quality of seeker(IR or EM) of missile & abilty of ECM of enemy target plane rather than range of a missile.Meanwhile Rafale has one of the most deadliest

BVRAAM of this planet the Meteor worlds 1st ramjet powered missile having one of the largest No escape zone (NEZ)
&
MICA IR
bvaam missile which is one of longest IR missile availabe right now.

& for self protection against chinese missiles rafale has SPECTRA electronic warfare suite which i hope doent need introduction as everyone knows about it's capabilty.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

all credits to respective members

 

[S10]

We have J-10B finishing up trial and J-20 undergoing development right here at home. You Indians "plan" to purchase the Rafale, in which the deal hasn't even finalized yet amongst your political bickering. The problem with your country in general is that you always count your chickens before they hatch. You constantly say "we're going have A,B,C", but never focus on your present. The reality is that you cannot even develop your own plane despite massive foreign parts and assistance, yet you want to compare yourselves to China?

The gap will only grow bigger from now.

 

[Akasa]

DEBUNKING OF CHINESE WET DREAMS ABOUT J 10B SUPERIOTY OVER RAFALE

Chinese claims that i quote



I)The J-10B incorporates 1200 T/R AESA, which is larger than the 880 T/R RBE-2,

ans:
well

1st of all there is a lot of uncertanity about whether J10b really poses AESA or PESA .ok lets us assume what NIET claims is
correct that J10b indeed has an AESA radar but still we dont have any accurate infos about it's specification like detection range ,scan rate ,peak power,

but we do get some idea about china's AESA radar from this chinese source that it may be having 1152 T/R modules

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055450.gif

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055619.gif

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055270.gif

AESA radar for J-10B will have 1152 T/R module

well it's didn't signify any thing about it's detection range ,scan rate ,peak power, T/R modules compostion whther GaAs or GaN ??

As the article described, the aesa radar configuration can be changed according to the nose size of the aircraft, for example, different T/R number for J-10 and J-11 .But still a long way to go for china to build an AESA radar of a fighter comparable in technology with US or European standard especially in terms of LPI(low probabilty of intercept) & electronic jamming.

also J 10b radar which we saw in net is a test model of AESA radar not a full production AESA radar which has around 8 IFF
dipole antenna in the main array each having capabilty of handling 2 targets at the same time which means 16 targets simultaneosly(according to WIKIpedia which the chinese members often say a very reliable source )
in comparsiion RBE 2 aesa radar can track upto 40 air targets in look down & look up aspects in all weather under intense electronic environment

meanwhile

rafale though claimed to have 1000 T/R modules but Pics say it has around 880 T/R modules but that doesnt mean J10's aesa radar becomes superior as greater size radar may be powerful but that doesnt mean technologically superior.
Well the quality of /or technology used to built T/R module of an AESA radar is more important than numbers as it should be more reliable .Well Su 30 mki bars radar even if it's a PESA radar is a very powerful radar with long detection range but it is technologically inferior to AESA radar.






advantage of RBE 2 AESA radar
1) SAR (synthetic aperature mode)

2)MMIC (mono lithic microwave integrated circuits )/GaAs (gallium arsenide) technology T/R modules
in future it may be built with GAllium nitride modules with sat com abilty
Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies



3) it creates a 3 dimensional ground map covering wide area forward of the aircraft during low altitude penetration mission

4) It's has much better LPI which is more important in todays aerial combat as todays fighter /Awacs ESM (electronic support
measures) or RWR (radar warning receiver) system are more powerful in detecting radar waves of fighter aircraft exposing it's cover or location in air which can be fatal in aerial combat.


5) It along with spectra system increases rafale's electronic jamming capabilty even further

6) enhanced detection of low observable targets & improved resistance to electronic jamming

7) much better 5th gen System core / COTS for faster computation

Conclusion
U just cant compare the technological experience of china in buiding AESA radar with the french Thales which have decades of experience in building radar starting from Mirage 2000 to rafale rbe radar.If thats was not the case why would have pak airforce officials died to have french avionics in their JF17 in comparision to chinese



II)INCREASED CONCENTRATION OF COMPOSITES

ans:
& thats absolutely B.S
J10b' s composites concentration is no way greater than Rafale infact dassault itself claims rafale's composite concentration is more than 70 %
Optimized airframe

Hexcel company of france which supplies composties to rafale are pioneer in developing composites for aircraft meanwhile god knows what is the standard of chinese composites .????
Hexcel Composites - France
Hexcel.com - Carbon fiber and composites for aerospace, wind energy and industrial







III)BETTER RAM COATING


Ans:
another garbage assumption!!

rafale has much high quality RAM coating than j10 ,and what cheap quality RAM coating china uses we can see from the
pics of J20 when white flecks or patches are visible on plane surface when RAM shed off it's surface.Only J20 looks shiny in
photoshop pics only.

infact RAM coating can be seen in such places in rafale where u dont find in j10b
like external refuelling probe ,


IV)DSI

ANs:
yes 1 innovative thing for J10b
DSI has an advantage in performance & some aspects in stealth as it removes the gap present in between the diverter blade
& fuselarge of the plane.but to be fair enough it has no major role in combat.

But some analyst says DSI cant withstand mach 2+ Speeds which is yet to be proven ???? optimum speed for DSI is around
MACh 1.6-1.7 like that we see in jf 17 & F-35 So it needs to be seen can J10b achieve mach 2+ speed which J10A claims to have



V)136 Kn ENGINE

ans:
WS 10A 132 Kn engine right from the very beginnning has been under lot of scrutiny though chinese are determined to induct it no matter how good or bad it performs.Though WS 10b has been boasting of 136 Kn along with TVC which is still in development .Yes they have inducted WS 10a engines in J11b & even j-15 is going to have those engines ,but those are twin engine fighters
meanwhile inducting a single INDIGENIOUS engine fighter hasnt been so easy for chinese may be inducting a twin engine fighter with indigeniuos engines is more safer & reliable in comparision to a single indigenous engine fighter.Well same goes for WS 13engines i think for Jf17 also .& that too rumours ofchinese buying russian engines keep on popping in the media or internet every now & then .




infact serious misconception exists in the mind of our chinese friends about WS 10A 136kn advantage over Scnema M88 3 engine

u should understand thrust to weight ratio of plane is more important than thrust of engine of a plane

which rafale Thrust/weight ratio : 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) excels in comparision to
J10b Thrust/weight ratio : 0.96 (with AL-31); 1.017 (with WS-10A) thaanks to it's twin engines fighter


other advantages of Rafale's M88 3 /M88 eco engines

1) it can supercruise but WS 10A no

2) it has far less IR signature than WS 10A thanks to it's 2 cooling channels

3) it's better engine TBO

4) scenema FADEC is much superior to WS 10a




VI)Mach 2 speed

Ans:
another funny ideology i think one should understand that plane cannot attain mach 2 speed every time if it does that it would be through help of after burner the plane would ran out of entire fuel stored in it & it would increase plane's IR
signature a lot which would be visible by enemy' IRST like rafale's FSO which is claimed to be capable of detecting IR signatures of plane from 120km .

well it is much better to have supercruise planes which doent need after burners to maintain speed which rafale has .If thats
the case then Mirage 2000 which has a top speed well above mach2+ would be superior to F-35 which has mach 1.7 as top speed

VII)20300 m service ceiling

ANS:
i would rather say it's vintage aerial combat ideology our chinese friends beleive that having a faster plane with higher ceiling would help them to release BVR missiles at such height which would give their BVR missiles more kinetic energy with more range & they would destroy rafale with it's SD 10 A or B misssiles at much longer range & rafale pilots would be sitting ducks & would not be having any self protection suite like SPECTRA in order to save their A$$es .LOOLLZ


well it's true that indeed BVR missiles range increase at high altitudes & with increased speed but it doent increase it's
kill probabilty of BVraam missile . Infact Kill probabilty of a missile depends upon the quality of seeker(IR or EM) of missile & abilty of ECM of enemy target plane rather than range of a missile.Meanwhile Rafale has one of the most deadliest

BVRAAM of this planet the Meteor worlds 1st ramjet powered missile having one of the largest No escape zone (NEZ)
&
MICA IR
bvaam missile which is one of longest IR missile availabe right now.

& for self protection against chinese missiles rafale has SPECTRA electronic warfare suite which i hope doent need introduction as everyone knows about it's capabilty.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

all credits to respective members

THe only thing you've debunked is your honesty and sanity. The arguments you gave were all disproven and the links you posted have been refuted by the very manufacturers themselves. If you can't accept the fact that the J-10B incorporates the same kind of upgrades as the Rafale (and to greater extent), then perhaps we finally know why your leaders have failed to propel your military industry beyond the Cold War stage. Funny.

 

[Type 055]

at Su-11

Dude your sources are as reliable as a blog like strategy page. Everything else is your delusional opinion. RAM coating is not even on this current prototype of the J-20. Why the hell do you put RAM coating for such an early stage prototype. RAM will be put in later prototypes. Continue your pipe dream. China has surpassed France in everything except engines, and even that China will overtake them during this decade.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Dude I think the reason why we haven't ordered the FC-20 is because we're broke right now ! And we can't rely on the 'soft loans' anymore because we've already financed much of our acquisitions from there. I think we're waiting for the economy to pick up in the next few years before we commit to more acquisitions.

I don't think China will sell J-20 to any Foreign Air Force, not even Pakistan Air Force. The only 5th Generation fighter they are planning to sell to a Foreign Air Force is J-31 and even that is atleast 5 years away to be operational.

Besides J-20 is too heavy a fighter to fit in Pakistan Air Force Strategy/Doctrine.

Sorry Armstrong my bad, I just saw you were talking about FC-20 which is actually J10 for us. FC20 is the PLAAF designation.

 

[Type 055]

America don't sell the F-22. China won't sell the J-20.

 

[hurt]

America don't sell the F-22. China won't sell the J-20.

America can sell F-14 to Iran,we can sell J-20 to Pakistan.

but I think it is too Expensive for Pakistan.

J-31 will be a good choice

 

[IceCold]

The time for J-10 for Pakistan is gone. It is not just about when you get the plane but also the fact that you need time to establish training facilities, logistics, repair, maintenance and more importantly time to train your pilots to know the inside out of the plane. We have delayed the raising squadron strength for the JF-17 for the very same reason above, J-10 is an altogether different ball game.
J-10 has too many variables left, no domestic engine for now, china's own requirements, no money on our part. Soft loans would not cut it either.
If our economy gets back on track and that is a big "IF" it will not be before 2020 and by then it makes no sense to induct another 4.5th generation fighter jet.