Chinese Flanker Family: J-11, J-16 ... Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MKK

[LKJ86]

 

[帅的一匹]

 

[LKJ86]

J-11BH

 

[LKJ86]

Su-30MKK2 & PL-12

 

[Fawadqasim1]

View attachment 537311

Bro Can you tell me one thing how can Pakistan buy
This aircraft

 

[LKJ86]

Bro Can you tell me one thing how can Pakistan buy
This aircraft

Basically impossible.
Why not buy Su-35 or Su-30 from Russia?

 

[LKJ86]

Su-30MKK

 

[LKJ86]

Su-30MKK

 

[LKJ86]

J-16

 

[LKJ86]

The video of J-16:
https://m.weibo.cn/6362632222/4339211958273767

 

[wulff]

Hi,

The J16 is an excellent aircraft on its own merits---but it cannot compete in the low low flight envelop that the JH7 was developed for.

The US had the F111 for the low low flight capability that the russian military feared the most---. After that camethe B1 and then the B2---. The B2 with its stealth capability did not need the low flight capability---.

Pakistan has a vast ocean to strike at its enemy from different angles---. That capability would force the enemy to withdraw its multiple assets from the land facing border with Pakistan---thus thinning their strike capability and defences---.

The naval strike capability of the JH7A would play havoc on the enemy---why---.

On land---the enemy can have multiple SA missile batteries covering most of the entry points---.

If you look at the map of pakistan to the enemy---flying from Pasni---the aircraft can pick up multiple strike targets from standoff distances without getting into the enemy SA missile range---.

The targets that a naval strike mission opens are extremely vulnerable to the enemy. Strikes on targets in mumbai would strike at the heart of the enemy's economy---and that would be the most crucial strikes---would break the enemy's back---.

The JH7A still carries more load and has a longer strike distance than the J16---.

Please remember---there are two main types of aircraft---air superiority and general strike amongst many other---but I will keep the list short for understanding---.

You air superiority aircraft has to to be able to compete with the enemy mano a mano---because that is what they are designed for---.

But your strike aircraft are opportunistic aircraft that pickup a load from one place and deliver it to another place---they don't have to compete against the enemy aircraft in an air superiority battle---even though they do have some capability---but their primary goal is to move in deliver their goods and run away---.

For a country like china---The J16's the J15's the J11's are important showcases---because the chinese need to show their public where the investment is going---. They have to show off their new toys to build up confidence in the public towards their armed forces---but that does not mean that the old work horses have suddenly become obsolete---.

Indeed, the PAF lacks a modern terrain hugging low-level strike platform. PAF lacks any survivable platforms for offensive air operations much farther from the border (yes, even with F16 Block 52s). The Chinese JH-7, Saudi/UK/Euro Tornadoes, Qatari/UAE Mirage 2k, and used Mirage F1s and Jaguars are all capable platforms that can be acquired for this role.

But surely the PAF must not think of procuring dedicated strike aircraft when they cannot even attain air dominance over home skies. They dont have a modern SAM worth speaking of, not to speak of a layered SAM network, and they dont have any air superiority fighter that can dominate an MKI either. Surely the priority should be on these systems instead of strike aircraft, which wont even be able to take off from their bases unless air superiority is achieved first in the skies of Pakistan. The PAF is in critical need of air-superiority and air-defence capability. Forget any strike aircraft: ballistic and cruise missiles are their best bet for now.

This is where the J-16 may be the perfect aircraft for PAF. The J-16 is replacing the PLAAF JH-7s, which means it is good enough for the PLAAF for the strike mission and also better than the JH-7 (otherwise why would the PLAAF choose it over the JH-7B?). It can attack from the sea as you describe, it has the range of a Flanker!

The J-16 is far more than a strike aircraft, however. It is China's #2 air superiority jet, behind only the J-20 in its A2A capability, and this is the best thing about it. In most respects, it is better than the Su-35 export variant the Chinese have. If you dont believe me, ask our Chinese friends like @LKJ86, @rcrmj or @cirr. It is probably the only jet apart from the Su-35 that can achieve air superiority over meteor firing Rafales and upgraded Su-30MKI of the IAF. After the new TVC engine that we have seen on the J-10C makes its way on the J-16, it will probably equal the Su-35 in maneuvrability as well.

It is a 2-in-1: it fulfills the main roles of both Su-30MKI (air superiority) and Rafale (low level strike) for PAF. When paired with stealth drones like the Ch-7, it is the next best thing to a J-20. Unless the PAF wants to wait for a chinese stealth fighter like the naval stealth aircraft they are developing, this is the best thing for PAF.

@Windjammer

 

[rcrmj]

The J-16 is far more than a strike aircraft, however. It is China's #2 air superiority jet, behind only the J-20 in its A2A capability, and this is the best thing about it. In most respects, it is better than the Su-35 export variant the Chinese have. If you dont believe me, ask our Chinese friends like @LKJ86, @rcrmj or @cirr. It is probably the only jet apart from the Su-35 that can achieve air superiority over meteor firing Rafales and upgraded Su-30MKI of the IAF. After the new TVC engine that we have seen on the J-10C makes its way on the J-16, it will probably equal the Su-35 in maneuvrability as well.

It is a 2-in-1: it fulfills the main roles of both Su-30MKI (air superiority) and Rafale (low level strike) for PAF. When paired with stealth drones like the Ch-7, it is the next best thing to a J-20. Unless the PAF wants to wait for a chinese stealth fighter like the naval stealth aircraft they are developing, this is the best thing for PAF.

@Windjammer

Su-35 has overall better performance than J-16 for the time being````they are both multi-role fighters, each one has its own kicks. but in real combat, it is the polit and tactic that wins the end.

Ralales is a good fighter too, the French has their own ways of understanding modern air battle, but cant say that their fighter is better than its peer in same generation, they also have their distinct disadvantages```people from the circle call them “娇贵”、“标新立异”`````

in term of MKI````well, those J-10B's radar has already made them "clueless" few times ago`````but cant say MKI is a bad model (back to the days when India first got MKI, it was kind a shock to PLAAF, as we did not have anything at its level in our inventory, but the situation changed dramatically after 2006) just for too long it has not recieved any significent upgrades from its supplier

for major technologically advanced air-force, their fighters will recieve small upgrades in 2-3 years time, and significent upgrades in around 5 years time````and big "changes" around 10 years````but India is simply not capable of doing that, it has to rely on Russia, France and other suppliers to do that job, and very costly!

 

[LKJ86]

 

[Deino]

View attachment 539284

One of the J-16 prototypes? ... or am i wrong?

By the way, any news on the J-11D?

 

[wulff]

Su-35 has overall better performance than J-16 for the time being````they are both multi-role fighters, each one has its own kicks. but in real combat, it is the polit and tactic that wins the end.

Ralales is a good fighter too, the French has their own ways of understanding modern air battle, but cant say that their fighter is better than its peer in same generation, they also have their distinct disadvantages```people from the circle call them “娇贵”、“标新立异”`````

in term of MKI````well, those J-10B's radar has already made them "clueless" few times ago`````but cant say MKI is a bad model (back to the days when India first got MKI, it was kind a shock to PLAAF, as we did not have anything at its level in our inventory, but the situation changed dramatically after 2006) just for too long it has not recieved any significent upgrades from its supplier

for major technologically advanced air-force, their fighters will recieve small upgrades in 2-3 years time, and significent upgrades in around 5 years time````and big "changes" around 10 years````but India is simply not capable of doing that, it has to rely on Russia, France and other suppliers to do that job, and very costly!

It is good to hear your view on this issue. However, I still consider Yankeesama the authority on issues related to Chinese Flankers and he has a very different opinion. He has given a very detailed comparision between J-16 and Su-35 in a q/a recently. Here is the link to the original article:

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=Mz...8b37aca2799f8d57cc8&source=41#wechat_redirect

and

https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/d...7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g

And here is the link to a translation done on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FLessCredibleDefence%252Fcomments%252Fajx4bx%252F

I'll reproduce the bits from the reddit translation that are relevant to this discussion:

- Su-35 is very maneuverable, possibly the most maneuverable fighter in the PLAAF

- The N035E is an excellent PESA radar. It's pretty much the best PESA radar you can practically develop.

- However, it's substantially weaker than the current generation of Chinese AESAs.

- ESM/ECM systems are not as good as the J-16s. If the J16 were to be rated a 10/10, the Su-35 would be an 8.5/10 on ESM and 8/10 on ECM performance.

- The IRST is also worse ("far inferior"), due to the state of the Russian electronics/optics industry.

- R-77/R-73 are unremarkable, and performance trails the Chinese PL-10 and PL-15 missiles.

- The N035E's look-up range is only slightly more than the J-16 radar's look-down range, and the former is not as effective as the latter in anti-surface mode

- The '8.5' and '8.0' scores refer to the Su-35's sensing and EW capabilities respectively assuming the J-16's are set at '10' for both

- The weapons package of the Su-35 is not particularly impressive

- The KS-172, even if imported, wouldn't compare favourably with China's own VLRAAM

- Strike munitions of the Su-35 deal are upgraded versions of the same munitions procured as part of the Su-30 deals almost twenty years ago and there is limited value in what can learnt from them