Chinese Flanker Family: J-11, J-16 ... Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MKK

[LKJ86]

It is good to hear your view on this issue. However, I still consider Yankeesama the authority on issues related to Chinese Flankers and he has a very different opinion. He has given a very detailed comparision between J-16 and Su-35 in a q/a recently. Here is the link to the original article:

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=Mz...8b37aca2799f8d57cc8&source=41#wechat_redirect

and

https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/d...7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g

And here is the link to a translation done on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FLessCredibleDefence%252Fcomments%252Fajx4bx%252F

I'll reproduce the bits from the reddit translation that are relevant to this discussion:

- Su-35 is very maneuverable, possibly the most maneuverable fighter in the PLAAF

- The N035E is an excellent PESA radar. It's pretty much the best PESA radar you can practically develop.

- However, it's substantially weaker than the current generation of Chinese AESAs.

- ESM/ECM systems are not as good as the J-16s. If the J16 were to be rated a 10/10, the Su-35 would be an 8.5/10 on ESM and 8/10 on ECM performance.

- The IRST is also worse ("far inferior"), due to the state of the Russian electronics/optics industry.

- R-77/R-73 are unremarkable, and performance trails the Chinese PL-10 and PL-15 missiles.

- The N035E's look-up range is only slightly more than the J-16 radar's look-down range, and the former is not as effective as the latter in anti-surface mode

- The '8.5' and '8.0' scores refer to the Su-35's sensing and EW capabilities respectively assuming the J-16's are set at '10' for both

- The weapons package of the Su-35 is not particularly impressive

- The KS-172, even if imported, wouldn't compare favourably with China's own VLRAAM

- Strike munitions of the Su-35 deal are upgraded versions of the same munitions procured as part of the Su-30 deals almost twenty years ago and there is limited value in what can learnt from them

PLAAF is displeased with Su-35SK's radar, avionics, and ammunition.

And it is difficult for Su-35SK to be integrated into PLAAF's combat systems architecture.

 

[055_destroyer]

PLAAF is displeased with Su-35SK's radar, avionics, and ammunition.

And it is difficult for Su-35SK to be integrated into PLAAF's combat systems architecture.

I don't think PLAAF is stupid. They long know the weakness of Su-35 even before buying it.

The purchase looks more of a political decision than military one. See how Sukhoi never promote their product during Zhuhai 2018 airshow tells you something.

 

[LKJ86]

I don't think PLAAF is stupid. They long know the weakness of Su-35 even before buying it.

The purchase looks more of a political decision than military one. See how Sukhoi never promote their product during Zhuhai 2018 airshow tells you something.

Due to its engines, and airframe strengthening.

 

[wulff]

PLAAF is displeased with Su-35SK's radar, avionics, and ammunition.

And it is difficult for Su-35SK to be integrated into PLAAF's combat systems architecture.

In addition, rumors saying that in recent exercises the Su-35SK was repeatedly defeated and proved to be no match for J-16s and J-10Cs.

Due to its engines, and airframe strengthening.

I'm of the view that it was bought for 3 reasons:

1) engine
2) flight control system
3) The proliferation of Flankers around China (specifically the MKI, and the ones operated by Vietnam, Malaysia and Indonesia), which would be the most dangerous opponent for the PLAAF after the F-35.

 

[LKJ86]

In addition, rumors saying that in recent exercises the Su-35SK was repeatedly defeated and proved to be no match for J-16s and J-10Cs.

Waiting for the "golden helmet" competition this year.

2) flight control system
3) The proliferation of Flankers around China (specifically the MKI, and the ones operated by Vietnam, Malaysia and Indonesia), which would be the most dangerous opponent for the PLAAF after the F-35.

PLAAF just takes F-22 and F-35 seriously.

 

[rcrmj]

PLAAF is displeased with Su-35SK's radar, avionics, and ammunition.

And it is difficult for Su-35SK to be integrated into PLAAF's combat systems architecture.

quite opposite in fact```they are actually amazed by that Russian radar, its major performance is even better than some of the latest AESA radars out there, including some of them that we have atm````there is a miscomception among fans, that AESA is better than PESA, no matter what components, structure, architecture and software they use`````

in fact the radar is not genuine PESA, (他们没有像传统的无源雷达，所有元器件共用一个发射机，N035E使用了一种全新的架构，就是几个元器件组成一个组，用一个发射机，这样这个雷达还是有多个发射机，和多个T/R组组成的，只不过没有像AESA一个元器件一个收发机),sorry I didnt use english, as I have my limitations of express some in English```````they also managed very well in terms of reducing noise and signal reduction,

J-16 may have advantage of optical sensors, thanks to J-20, however, Russia, unlike China and U.S, has its own approach of dealing with detecting targets when the environment is highly jammed with signals or finding stealth objects, like multipul bandwith solution, they have radar antennas over the wings, body and rear etc````

importing Su-35 has two major reasons:
1、to fill the dire needs of PLAAF for advanced heavy fighter, the decade old J-11B is not up to the latest challenge placed by the fighters deployed by the U.S in Asia-Pacific region. It will take time for the latest J-11B to fill in. And most importantly, it will take years for J-20 to meet up PLAAF's unit demand. there is still production problems facing J-20, as some of suppliers still cannot stablize their product's defective rate.

2、what Chinese aviation engineers can learn from Su-35 is not one technology or few, but the innovative thinkings in dealing with problems. how they always manage to use normal components to round up world-class platforms and systems! nowadays, we have the latest components and advanced technologies, but the collective results are not always up to our expectation.

and back to J-16, it is a very advanced fighter, and its main job is "sweeping" the floor and shooting down long distance big and clumsy air targets, rather like Su-35's air superiority roles````

 

[LKJ86]

J-16

 

[rcrmj]

we have loads 30MKK need to be relpaced, luckly we have J-16, but unlucky for even larger J-11B's replacement, as J-11D project is a bit disappointing```

ers around China (specifically the MKI, and the ones operated by Vietnam, Malaysia and Indonesia), which would be the most dangerous opponent for the PLAAF after the F-35.

we only look at the U.S, the rest are negligable`````most of them cannt even sustain few days intense air battle campaign, not to mention their technological gap is too wide to put up a serious challenge to us`````连日本海自的空军在东海被几架土鳖的电子战飞机搞得团团转，整天吵着要美爹卖他们最新的咆哮者，和电战特种机·····

 

[LKJ86]

quite opposite in fact```they are actually amazed by that Russian radar, its major performance is even better than some of the latest AESA radars out there, including some of them that we have atm````there is a miscomception among fans, that AESA is better than PESA, no matter what components, structure, architecture and software they use`````

in fact the radar is not genuine PESA, (他们没有像传统的无源雷达，所有元器件共用一个发射机，N035E使用了一种全新的架构，就是几个元器件组成一个组，用一个发射机，这样这个雷达还是有多个发射机，和多个T/R组组成的，只不过没有像AESA一个元器件一个收发机),sorry I didnt use english, as I have my limitations of express some in English```````they also managed very well in terms of reducing noise and signal reduction,

J-16 may have advantage of optical sensors, thanks to J-20, however, Russia, unlike China and U.S, has its own approach of dealing with detecting targets when the environment is highly jammed with signals or finding stealth objects, like multipul bandwith solution, they have radar antennas over the wings, body and rear etc````

importing Su-35 has two major reasons:
1、to fill the dire needs of PLAAF for advanced heavy fighter, the decade old J-11B is not up to the latest challenge placed by the fighters deployed by the U.S in Asia-Pacific region. It will take time for the latest J-11B to fill in. And most importantly, it will take years for J-20 to meet up PLAAF's unit demand. there is still production problems facing J-20, as some of suppliers still cannot stablize their product's defective rate.

2、what Chinese aviation engineers can learn from Su-35 is not one technology or few, but the innovative thinkings in dealing with problems. how they always manage to use normal components to round up world-class platforms and systems! nowadays, we have the latest components and advanced technologies, but the collective results are not always up to our expectation.

and back to J-16, it is a very advanced fighter, and its main job is "sweeping" the floor and shooting down long distance big and clumsy air targets, rather like Su-35's air superiority roles````

Su-35SK is just like the 4 Type P.956 destroyers, which were bought before the mass production of Type 052C/D destroyers.

 

[LKJ86]

J-11BS

 

[rcrmj]

Su-35SK is just like the 4 Type P.956 destroyers, which were bought before the mass production of Type 052C/D destroyers.

View attachment 539425

but the problem is that the PLAAF doesnt have "052D" in number, and J-11D is pretty much dead, J-11B upgrades will take time, and dont know when they are going to increase J-20's production rate````they really need latest 3rd++ gen heavy jets atm

 

[LKJ86]

but the problem is that the PLAAF doesnt have "052D" in number, and J-11D is pretty much dead, J-11B upgrades will take time, and dont know when they are going to increase J-20's production rate````they really need latest 3rd++ gen heavy jets atm

J-20 is the "052D".
It is the era of 4-generation fighter aircrafts now.
There is no more space for 3.5-generation air superiority fighter aircrafts .

In PLAAF, J-20 is for air superiority, and J-10C and J-16 for multirole.

Su-35SK will be forgot very soon, just like Type P.956 destroyers.

 

[Deino]

Do we have any recent news on the J-11D?

 

[LKJ86]

 

[LKJ86]