Chinese aggression is good for India's Defence

[faithfulguy]

I think a direct answer would have been more appropriate

That Yes Indian weapons are much superior to Chinese weapons...(imported or not doesnt matter)

I would have liked u now and would like you in future to accept this more openly than the grudging manner in which u accepted it in ur above post.....

now for ur second point:

WHatever India is building- an weapon is with TOT or in collaboration with West/Russian scientific community....
it is unlike China which is working in isolation.....

So whatever weapon India will make in future also will always be superior to Chinese weapon(because of TOT or West/Russian collaboration)

Secondly Indian scientific communities capabilities are renowed world over....they are as good as the west/russian when provided the right kind of resources....and even better sometimes...Infact we will catch up with west/russian standards much much earlier than China....

And i dont see China reaching anywhere near Russia/West Tech for decades...

p.s:

ur suggestion that China will lead away in Tech from India is funny and laughable coz currently India got much better techology capability in defence sector than CHina...it is pure R&D as compared to copying done by China....going in future India will pull away furthur than now greatly from China and leapfrom many times ahead in Technology..
U learn 50 times more and ur Technological abilities increase manifold when u do ur own R&D.... copying results in 2 things:
a) poor quality of weapons as compared to original
b) no benefit to scientific mind of a scientist

the scientists which are habitual at copying become redundant and can ony do that- copying...

In terms of strategic weapons, I believe that everyone agrees that China is more advance than India, is that true or are there any Indians believe that India is superior to China in this regard? What I mean by strategic weapons is ICBM, SLBM and long range bombers like B2 spirit.

The contention between Indians and Chinese appears to be on the tactical weapons. The Indian guys believe that Russian/Western base system are far superior to that of the Chinese systems. Is that true all across the board or its only certain items. Forgive me as I'm not an expert on current weaponry.

I'm not even quite knowledgeable on US weapons but for example, I believe on one can argue that US F22 is superior to anything Indian AF has. Also, US tanks, surface ships, any kind tactical missiles, either is AA, SAM or Anti Ship, precision bombs, anti tank misisle and even small firearms are totally superior to anything in the Indian inventory. If anyone want to dispute with me, please let me know.

The reason I post the paragraph above is not to compare the US vs Indian system, as its no comparason. But to show how the Chinese/Indian tactical weapons can be compared. This is trickier because any Indian weapons that can compete with China are base on imported or ToT. I do not know all the details. So to start out, with the similar category of comparason I have above, would anyone from China/India detail the comparason between the weaponry in China and India and why one is better than the other. Also, I'm not interested in numerical superiority. Another thing, if anyone want to add more category for comparason, feel free to do sy. Please limit only in tactical weapons as no one sells strategic weapons to India so the comparason is not as interesting.

 

[conworldus]

I just don't understand what exactly is the "Chinese aggression" when China has not advanced an inch on the de facto control line for .... 47 years!

I mean, spent all you want on buying big western guns but don't credit us for it.

 

[gpit]

没用的, 他们已经被自己政府洗脑, 此势头已无可逆转..振醒华夏要紧!!!紧张身毒国干嘛??没用的,我也试过几次了,提醒过了......the wheel of history has been decided and inevitable, people will be shown this sooner or later...no use trying to awake them....

Haha,haha!

“Heroes always share the same strategies/opinions.” Be it in the history, in present or in the future.

BTW, do you call it 身毒 even now among Chinese in 大马? Just curious.

 

[gpit]

.... But this is far more prevalent with the Indian members. A reflection of the Indian media, government and social mentality.

Brother, this is a mutation of Western democracy there. We all know how a given citrus can gown differently on different sides of a river bank.

 

[gpit]

China and india are moving in two very different paths.

Rightly said!

While india is a liberal democracy ,china is communist autocracy.At any point of the time someone will be missing in theother.

While they both started around the same level. The end results are starkly contrasted: China has 9% illiteracy, India 40% …… and many other well known blah blahs. Sounds like you are very proud of your liberal democracy achievements?

India may not have so many eight lane roads in its cities,but its poeple certainly enjoy more freedom than china.

Explain to us how could starving people enjoy genuine freedom; how could illiterates make sound/independent judgments in general?

To begin with ,due to one child policy of china,there is severe restriction on being born as chinese ,while india offers no such problem.

You have 2,000,000 children died every year, and you call it no problem.

Sounds like your problem is bigger than it appears.

U may have great road china...but indian village can have as many spead breaker as possible to prevent loss of life in accidents cuased by speeding vahicles

Then why do you bother to use modern vehicles in the first place?

Ask Indian who knows about china,would suggest india should never become like china,So there is no real competition since we dont want to emmmulate china except in businesses which have to competitive a glabal sense.

Rightly said. Perhaps you don’t even have to compete with china in business in Chinese way as you have a different system. So you’d better remove your “except” above.

China blocks Twitter, Flickr, YouTube and Hotmail ahead of Tiananmen anniversary | Technology | The Guardian

I personally believe China should be freer, but I still think rightly regulated media are a must for a healthy society: there are too many liars and fake news in India media. Many your fellow countrymen are collectively brainwashed by your propaganda. Not much better, perhaps worse, than in China.

 

[humblehobbes]

2 big countries.
1 billion in each.
Each having long history
Each plagued by poverty and assorted evils.
Citizens of the 2 country discussing as to who is worser of the lot.
Forum gets boring when Indians and Chinese start mudslinging..

 

[Naradmuni]

As a regular visitor to many Chinese military forums, I can tell you guys the general feelings we Chinese have regarding such aids from the west and your arm deals.

1. We in general believes western aids/arm exports are negative for building up your defence system -- all those stuff come with strings attached, the price tag is never fancy and they only give you what they want you to have. last but not least -- when you can buy the AC, why build your own?

by the time your UK made one arrives your port, you should have already seen Chinese domestic built ones (not that russian half done crap) in active service.

2. We in general believes the arm embargo applied on China after 1989 is one of the best contributions to our military modernization and a lot of our military fans worry about the possible lift being considered by many EU countries.

actually, I found it is quite funny that india is claiming itself to be an important power in the world while also seeking such aids from the west.

If you look at your crappy armed forces, look at the progress (if any) made by them in the past 2 decades, then you compared the modernization achieved by the Chinese ones, you can clearly see the differences - Chinese work hard and believe the strengths come from the solid industral and economic foundations built by its own, india on the other hand just keep dreaming and talking, no one do the real job, the whole logic of "when we can buy Mig-29/Su-30/T-90/Arrow from foreign countries, then why build our own?" is killing the nation's future.

As a Chinese, I of course would love indian to keep the current direction and make the same mistake for another 2 decades. After reading this thread and the news about how russia keeps increasing the charges for the AC, I realised it is india, a dreaming and talking nation, and for this reason, I feel more comfortable than ever before that we own the future not india/indian.

This makes sense. The space technology embargo slapped on India post pokhran tests have largely contributed to the total indegenisation of our space technology. Really, a blessing in disguise.
Likewise, the case of first Indian supercomputer PARAM 10000.

Similarly, I see the Indo-us nuclear deal as a western cap on Indian efforts to develop its own alternative thorium based reactors. Which is in an advanced stage of development.

Having said that, the thing that needs to be understood is that it is India in this case. Indeginisation and self reliance never stops. You lease us a charlie class submarine, we make Arihant. You give us cryogenic engines, we go on to make one by ourself. Similarly, AAD, PAD, RISAT, SU30MKI, Brahmos etc. etc. Well, only chinese arent masters of reverse engineering!!!

Point is, a little bit of common sense and a fair bit of indianness will ensure that India stands tall, eye-in-eye with US, China or anyone in future. With an added bonus of providing respectful human rights, self-dignity and freedom to its citizen.

 

[Naradmuni]

Sounds like you are very proud of your liberal democracy achievements?

There isnt anything to be ashamed of, either.

7-9% GDP growth for a decade plus freedom of expression, self-dignity, right to decide our future, right to information, right to protest, right to criticize and more importantly, right to have babies without worrying wether the CCP would authorise it or prohibit it.

 

[Khajur]

Rightly said!



While they both started around the same level. The end results are starkly contrasted: China has 9% illiteracy, India 40% …… and many other well known blah blahs. Sounds like you are very proud of your liberal democracy achievements?

Explain to us how could starving people enjoy genuine freedom; how could illiterates make sound/independent judgments in general?
You have 2,000,000 children died every year, and you call it no problem.
Sounds like your problem is bigger than it appears.

Most guys dont understand indias poverty problem.

Number of poor people in india is growing not because india is getting poorer with time inspite of spectacular growth ,but its the poor who is breeding more poor with a very high birth rate.

U see ,while any avg middle class family with two to three kids max ,enjoy the same level of life style in terms of education and healthcare like that in china if not better.

Its its indian poor that compounds the misery of his already poor family by having too many kids who surely misseds on education,sufficeint food ,decent clothing and heath care etc.. hencedragging down our social indicators to the level of african countries ,but incase of china, due its compusory one child policy ,china dont see rapid grow of poor lying in the button of the pyramid.


One may ask why indian poor ppl have such high birth rate ??
There are several reasons for it ,but its mostly due traditional culture of big family and in some cases for religious dogmas and also lack of strict govt policy, encourage india poor people to raise a big family inspite of its problems, which they often mistaken to think would act as a support system and money spinner for the whole family.

I personally believe China should be freer, but I still think rightly regulated media are a must for a healthy society: there are too many liars and fake news in India media. Many your fellow countrymen are collectively brainwashed by your propaganda. Not much better, perhaps worse, than in China

Blah blah blah...hypocrite
Yaa,why dont u start a campign to restrict the free speach and media freedom in US of A where u happily reside??

if there are too many liars and fake news in India media,
ask anyone in the muslim world,they too believe US media is total rubbish and full of vulgarity and what not.

Govt sponsored brainwashing , propaganda, hiding facts, restricting news access are hallmarks of communist china.All section of Indian media maynot be fair ,but they are certainly free and also unlike china indian citizens are free enough to decide who is fake and who is a liar for themselves.

 

[grey boy 2]

There isnt anything to be ashamed of, either.

7-9% GDP growth for a decade plus freedom of expression, self-dignity, right to decide our future, right to information, right to protest, right to criticize and more importantly, right to have babies without worrying wether the CCP would authorise it or prohibit it.

Agreed, nothing to be ashamed of, once you get use to it ? No ?

Does Chinese aggression good fo India for all those achivements

other than defence ?

India on various Global ranking studies
Global Hunger Index (GHI)

India’s score is 23.7, with a rank of 66th out of 88 countries, categorized under Alarming

The Human Development Report UNDP

India 134 out of 182 countries , categorized under Medium Human Development

Global Peace Index

India’s ranked 122 with 2.422 score

Global Corruption Index

Transparency International has downgraded India’s ranking from 72 to 85 in the list of world’s corruption-plagued countries

WEF The Global Gender Gap Report

India ranked 114 lisetd very poorly on the economic, education and health subindexes.

WEF Global Information Technology Report

India is down four places this year, at 54th

CIA world fact book on Account Balance

India listed as 182, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus)

World Health Organization Statistical System
BTW, congrates India being the No "1" in population in 2025.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/world/asia/16census.html
India on various Global ranking studies India Fact Book

 

[deckingraj]

Buddy i have no interest in refuting Gpit comment...We had a long discussion on some other thread...However i do want to refute this particular statement of yours....

Most guys dont understand indias poverty problem.

Number of poor people in india is growing not because india is getting poorer with time inspite of spectacular growth ,but its the poor who is breeding more poor with a very high birth rate.

Is that the only reason or most important reason for India not able to take care of her pooe people???? Do you have any stats which gives a clear picture of poor breeding poor or is it just a thought...Even for the sake of argument if it is true then again its a failure of our Govt.. China solved this problem by imposing One Child Rule..we in democracy cannot do it so what does that mean??? Indian poverty will never be resolved or can we use it as an excuse for our performance in eradicating poverty???

For a starter we need to kill the gross corruption which do not let benefits of zillion policies to poor...NREGA is one of the initiative that GOI has taken(kind of popular as well)....I am not saying poor breeding poor is not a reason for controlling poverty however we cannot hide behind that reason and use it as an excuse...

U see ,while any avg middle class family with two to three kids max ,enjoy the same level of life style in terms of education and health care like that in china if not better.

Are you sure??? Do you have any stats which gives us such inclination???

Its its indian poor that compounds the misery of his already poor family by having too many kids who surely miss on education,sufficeint food ,decent clothing and heath care dragging down our social indicators to the level of african countries ,but incase of china, due its compusory one child policy ,china dont see rapid grow of poor lying in the button of the pyramid.

Is that how they control their poverty?? How about comparing our infrastructure with Chinese....Our education model with chinese...

One may ask why indian poor ppl have such high birth rated ??
There are several reason for it ,but its mostly due tradition culture of big family and in some cases religious dogma and also lack of strict govt policy, encourage india poor people to raise a big family inspite of its problem which they often wrongy think would act as a support system and money spinner for the family.

Already share my POV above...


P.S : I have no intention of participation in discussion like whose dikc is bigger...However we must acknowledge that Chinese leaders were more visionery than ours(they choose to path of economic development 13 years before us)..and they have got lot of success in controlling poverty and illiteracy...We should achnowledge their achievement in this regard and try to emulate the results but not the methods(One Child Policy etc etc)

 

[gpit]

There isnt anything to be ashamed of, either.

7-9% GDP growth for a decade plus freedom of expression, self-dignity, right to decide our future, right to information, right to protest, right to criticize and more importantly, right to have babies without worrying wether the CCP would authorise it or prohibit it.

Right, those rights you mentioned are important.

But your 2,000,000 chidren don't have the rights to suvive. Your starved-to-death doesn't have the rights to eat enough. Your illiterate don't have the rights to school...

If those above perished do not have the basic rights, what is the use of voting, of having babies, of critisizing, of accessign to information...?

 

[Naradmuni]

Agreed, nothing to be ashamed of, once you get use to it ? No ?

Does Chinese aggression good fo India for all those achivements

other than defence ?

India on various Global ranking studies
Global Hunger Index (GHI)

India’s score is 23.7, with a rank of 66th out of 88 countries, categorized under Alarming

The Human Development Report UNDP

India 134 out of 182 countries , categorized under Medium Human Development

Global Peace Index

India’s ranked 122 with 2.422 score

Global Corruption Index

Transparency International has downgraded India’s ranking from 72 to 85 in the list of world’s corruption-plagued countries

WEF The Global Gender Gap Report

India ranked 114 lisetd very poorly on the economic, education and health subindexes.

WEF Global Information Technology Report

India is down four places this year, at 54th

CIA world fact book on Account Balance

India listed as 182, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus)

World Health Organization Statistical System
BTW, congrates India being the No "1" in population in 2025.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/world/asia/16census.html
India on various Global ranking studies India Fact Book

You like this stuff dont you?? I ve seen you post this piece of stat(or call it piece of s**t) at least 100 times in PDF.

And frankly I am all bored to go thru it all over again. What I suggest is you should compile where china stands on all those benchmarks. I am pretty sure china too would be holding hands with India and other developing nations, in your list of blah blahs.

 

[Naradmuni]

Right, those rights you mentioned are important.

But your 2,000,000 chidren don't have the rights to suvive.

And certainly, not one less or more than that. Thanks for counting them gpit

If those above perished do not have the basic rights, what is the use of voting, of having babies, of critisizing, of accessign to information...?

can we have some matured discussion please?

 

[grey boy 2]

You like this stuff dont you?? I ve seen you post this piece of stat at least 100 times in PDF.

And frankly I am all bored to go thru it all over again. What I suggest is you should compile where china stands on all those benchmarks. I am pretty sure china too would be holding hands with India and other developing nations, in your list of blah blahs

You are 100% correct , but did you Indians ever look yourself in

the mirror ? you were doing the exactly same thing posting about

China=communist=human right=freedom=one child policy=copy. etc.

Tell me why you can bash us over and over again with the same old

sh@t, and Chinese had to find something new to please you ?

Typical Indian's logic ? No ?