Chinese Aero Engine information thread

[rcrmj]

The core is fan blade. I think I do not need to explain further. If you see the recently documentary of shenyang liming factory talking abt the 2 technician. The most difficult parts to
produced is the fan blade which need to withstand the extreme high temp inside the engine while still need to repeatly function well.

You like it or. not , the engine on J-20 is local assemble and manufacture engine. Then why such engine cannot be apply on J-15 or J-10b/c Al-31FN since the engine seems to share similar dimension?

Turbofan and fighter jet is not LEGO toys that you can add bits and bots as you wish! changing the core is pretty much redesigning the whole```

 

[rcrmj]

Now is not a matter of what u claim. Fact is J-20 engine is domestic made and assemble at shenyang liming. Are u going to deny it?

It was me who said J-20 is using a hybird engine, are you asking me to debunk myself````?
I only stated, on previous posts, that the current J-10B/C and J-15s are using 31 engines```````there is no contradiction on that

 

[Beast]

It was me who said J-20 is using a hybird engine, are you asking me to debunk myself````?
I only stated, on previous posts, that the current J-10B/C and J-15s are using 31 engines```````there is no contradiction on that

But you are saying J-10b/C used AL-31F engine. Then why J-20 used hybrid engine while J-10b/C used AL-31FN engine. Isn't it contradict?

Why J-10B/C can't used hubrid engine?

 

[rcrmj]

But you are saying J-10b/C used AL-31F engine. Then why J-20 used hybrid engine while J-10b/C used AL-31FN engine. Isn't it contradict?

Why J-10B/C can't used hubrid engine?

gosh``read my lengthy Chinese post again````````````why USAAF arent using F-119 on F-16/15????

 

[Beast]

gosh``read my lengthy Chinese post again````````````why USAAF arent using F-119 on F-16/15????

I never say J-20 engine currently is WS-15. I am saying he engine on J-20 is hybrid of AL-31F design but with 100 percent made in China.

Your analogy is failed. Becos F119 is essential a new engine compare to F100.

And you are giving too many credit to Russian. Many of their glory is credit education to Soviet Union. Let me ask you, who had better destroyer with AESA radar? China or Russia? Not to mention. The Russian has many fanciful on drawing board but none are going to materialize. What happen to the aircraft carrier they boast they are going to build? Not even the screw is seen.

Russia now is pale shadow of the Soviet Union. Their so called T-50 is still not progressing any further due to the trouble engine.

Let me ask you how many fan blade petal has Russia supplied to GE or PW? Zero, their manufacturing industries level is simply not good to be accepted.
While China has been steady supplier for these well established engine maker for years.

 

[Deino]

But you are saying J-10b/C used AL-31F engine. Then why J-20 used hybrid engine while J-10b/C used AL-31FN engine. Isn't it contradict?

Why J-10B/C can't used hubrid engine?

You probably already know the answer Yourself? The answer is simple: the J-20 does not use this hybrid engine in the same way the J-10B/C does not use it. It simply does not exist.

The best, what is possible is a locally modified AL-31FN improved with certain technologies (esp. manufacturing processes and materials) from the WS-10 but surely not a Frankenstein-powerplant developed by mating the one engine's core and the other engine's exhaust; that's plain ridiculous and regardless how often this theory is repeated (esp. without any hard and concrete facts) it will not become reality.


By the way some guys need to differ or be more precisely: there is an AL-31F for the Flanker series and an FN for the J-10A and finally the latest modification the FN Series 3 tailored for the J-10B/C (and IMO the J-20 in modified form too).

Anyway; from what I so far gathered around especially via long and highly informative discussions with several Chinese guys (some You find mentioned here as highly reliable "sources" via Twitter- and their Weibo-account) is the following, which is especially interesting, since even if their reports do vary a bit (IMO most of all related to not properly differing the F from the FN) in details, all do in general agree on the same story:

The first two prototype-demonstrators of Project 718 – aka the J-20s numbered 2001 & 2002 – were using standard AL-31FN engines. The later prototypes – aka 2011-2017 – were using the uprated AL-31FN Series 3 with locally modified parts, specifically the nozzles, like the silver/dark coating thing we saw during their testing and since these are Chinese own upgrades, the report translated this into "locally manufactured engine".

Concerning the J-20’s current engine, they all agree that it is a locally modified AL-31FN or indeed FM and also that the current J-20’s engine is supported by the PLAAF factory / maintenance and overhaul facility No. 5719 near Chengdu, which also overhauls/refurbishes AL-31F/FN series for PLAAF and – IMO most important – is the only factory/facility for any AL-31-series engines in China. Even more all confirmed that Factory No.5719 is NOT capable of producing new engines, however it can produce engine vanes and the FADEC system now (http://www.pzhkdl.gov.cn/zhaoshang.asp?ClassID=9).

Concerning this report, its reliability and even more as for why Liming in Shenyang is mentioned their common believe is that this report was lousily researched, full of errors, mistakes, contradictions and false information (like the WP-14 Kunlun, its thrust parameters, Liming and J-20’s engine …) and was therefore deleted in order to avoid any further controversy.

All say Liming is by now in no way related to the current J-20’s engine but – and another hint for why that report mentioned Liming – it will since both WS-10 and WS-15 are developed by AECC Liming (aka Institute No.606). Reason for that is that there are indeed some reliable sources, which claim the WS-10B (or IPE) with about 14t will indeed be tested on the J-20 before WS-15 finished development since its higher thrust compared to the current engine but this will depend on how long it will take until the projected WS-15 will be ready. If there are any further delays expected it is likely, if not, then another interim engine-change is unlikely and as such deemed a waste of time and resources.

In summary, Shenyang/Liming is working on WS-15 and the WS-10 if it will eventually be tested, so it will support J-20 engine manufacturing eventually but it is not yet and that was overhyped by that report.

Concerning by FM2-theory, they are skeptical since there are indeed no report at all regarding Russia exporting AL-31F-M2 technology to China and even less there is no sign that the AL-31F-M2 will be licensed manufactured in China, so they all stick to the FN Series 3.

As for the WS-15 on the J-20, their earliest estimated appearance is at around 2020 and it will be mature at best by 2022.

So long,
Deino

PS: I moved several of these engine-related posts from the PLAAF-thread to the engine-section (or do You prefer the J-20 thread ?)

 

[Han Patriot]

You probably already know the answer Yourself? The answer is simple: the J-20 does not use this hybrid engine in the same way the J-10B/C does not use it. It simply does not exist.

The best, what is possible is a locally modified AL-31FN improved with certain technologies (esp. manufacturing processes and materials) from the WS-10 but surely not a Frankenstein-powerplant developed by mating the one engine's core and the other engine's exhaust; that's plain ridiculous and regardless how often this theory is repeated (esp. without any hard and concrete facts) it will not become reality.


By the way some guys need to differ or be more precisely: there is an AL-31F for the Flanker series and an FN for the J-10A and finally the latest modification the FN Series 3 tailored for the J-10B/C (and IMO the J-20 in modified form too).

Anyway; from what I so far gathered around especially via long and highly informative discussions with several Chinese guys (some You find mentioned here as highly reliable "sources" via Twitter- and their Weibo-account) is the following, which is especially interesting, since even if their reports do vary a bit (IMO most of all related to not properly differing the F from the FN) in details, all do in general agree on the same story:

The first two prototype-demonstrators of Project 718 – aka the J-20s numbered 2001 & 2002 – were using standard AL-31FN engines. The later prototypes – aka 2011-2017 – were using the uprated AL-31FN Series 3 with locally modified parts, specifically the nozzles, like the silver/dark coating thing we saw during their testing and since these are Chinese own upgrades, the report translated this into "locally manufactured engine".

Concerning the J-20’s current engine, they all agree that it is a locally modified AL-31FN or indeed FM and also that the current J-20’s engine is supported by the PLAAF factory / maintenance and overhaul facility No. 5719 near Chengdu, which also overhauls/refurbishes AL-31F/FN series for PLAAF and – IMO most important – is the only factory/facility for any AL-31-series engines in China. Even more all confirmed that Factory No.5719 is NOT capable of producing new engines, however it can produce engine vanes and the FADEC system now (http://www.pzhkdl.gov.cn/zhaoshang.asp?ClassID=9).

Concerning this report, its reliability and even more as for why Liming in Shenyang is mentioned their common believe is that this report was lousily researched, full of errors, mistakes, contradictions and false information (like the WP-14 Kunlun, its thrust parameters, Liming and J-20’s engine …) and was therefore deleted in order to avoid any further controversy.

All say Liming is by now in no way related to the current J-20’s engine but – and another hint for why that report mentioned Liming – it will since both WS-10 and WS-15 are developed by AECC Liming (aka Institute No.606). Reason for that is that there are indeed some reliable sources, which claim the WS-10B (or IPE) with about 14t will indeed be tested on the J-20 before WS-15 finished development since its higher thrust compared to the current engine but this will depend on how long it will take until the projected WS-15 will be ready. If there are any further delays expected it is likely, if not, then another interim engine-change is unlikely and as such deemed a waste of time and resources.

In summary, Shenyang/Liming is working on WS-15 and the WS-10 if it will eventually be tested, so it will support J-20 engine manufacturing eventually but it is not yet and that was overhyped by that report.

Concerning by FM2-theory, they are skeptical since there are indeed no report at all regarding Russia exporting AL-31F-M2 technology to China and even less there is no sign that the AL-31F-M2 will be licensed manufactured in China, so they all stick to the FN Series 3.

As for the WS-15 on the J-20, their earliest estimated appearance is at around 2020 and it will be mature at best by 2022.

So long,
Deino

PS: I moved several of these engine-related posts from the PLAAF-thread to the engine-section (or do You prefer the J-20 thread ?)

Deino, until today you still do not believe there is a domestic engine fitted even after a CCTV show. You still insist it was a nozzle modification. Do you really think so lowly of us Chinese? We had sent humans to space, produced the fastest supercomputers, dived the deepest ocean with our domestic submersibles. I am starting to think you are not really impartial. At least provide some evidence to counter the CCTV report.

 

[Deino]

Deino, until today you still do not believe there is a domestic engine fitted even after a CCTV show. You still insist it was a nozzle modification. Do you really think so lowly of us Chinese? We had sent humans to space, produced the fastest supercomputers, dived the deepest ocean with our domestic submersibles. I am starting to think you are not really impartial. At least provide some evidence to counter the CCTV report.

Sorry if I hurt Your or anybody's feelings but for me only arguments count and as such it has nothing to do with "thinking lowly of Chinese" - quite to the contrary I admire that culture, history and esp. their latest achievements - but that does not mean I have to believe each and every hyped TV-report esp. when such a report was deleted soon afterwards and earned a lot of critics from reliable posters.

So in return I'm astonished why some of You always tend to believe each and every such hyper-positive report regardless the lack of evidence. But again and like I said so often, time will tell.

Deino

 

[Han Patriot]

Sorry if I hurt Your or anybody's feelings but for me only arguments count and as such it has nothing to do with "thinking lowly of Chinese" - quite to the contrary I admire that culture, history and esp. their latest achievements - but that does not mean I have to believe each and every hyped TV-report esp. when such a report was deleted soon afterwards and earned a lot of critics from reliable posters.

So in return I'm astonished why some of You always tend to believe each and every such hyper-positive report regardless the lack of evidence. But again and like I said so often, time will tell.

Deino

Well, you have the right to have your own opinion. Guys let's keep this thread a fact sharing thread, no more debating whether it's domestic or foreign engine. If there are new developments, we just post and discuss. I think that is fair.

 

[j20blackdragon]

What's special of Al31 nozzle that We must copy it!?

Because the high-temperature blue flame of the Russian afterburner is the most valuable part of the Russian engine technology. Higher temperature usually means higher thrust. Higher temperature could also mean shorter service life, but that is a different discussion.

If you copy the high-temperature afterburner, you'll also have to copy the nozzle because the nozzle was designed to handle the high-temperature.

The orange flame of the F119 afterburner indicates a lower temperature flame.

But why does the F119 produce so much more thrust with a lower temperature orange flame?

Because the dry thrust from the F119 core is absolutely superior to anything coming from Russia.

When the F-22 is supercruising, it is operating entirely on the dry thrust from the F119 core. The afterburner is turned off.

But during a dogfight, you might want the afterburner...

 

[grey boy 2]

Another good news, guys, WS-10 "Taihang" engine finally in mass production stage, production rate has been achieving 100 percent growth lately
Source: PLA daily 2017年06月10日 09:10:33 来源： 解放军报

优质民企深度介入，航发领域创新步伐明显加快：某重要型号航空发动机精品叶片的产能提高一倍，某核心部件的加工周期由8个月缩短至两个月，空军主战飞机的航空发动机产能成倍增长。
read more:http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2017-06/10/c_129629719.htm

 

[帅的一匹]

Because the high-temperature blue flame of the Russian afterburner is the most valuable part of the Russian engine technology. Higher temperature usually means higher thrust. Higher temperature could also mean shorter service life, but that is a different discussion.

If you copy the high-temperature afterburner, you'll also have to copy the nozzle because the nozzle was designed to handle the high-temperature.

The orange flame of the F119 afterburner indicates a lower temperature flame.

But why does the F119 produce so much more thrust with a lower temperature orange flame?

Because the dry thrust from the F119 core is absolutely superior to anything coming from Russia.

When the F-22 is supercruising, it is operating entirely on the dry thrust from the F119 core. The afterburner is turned off.

But during a dogfight, you might want the afterburner...

I don't believe this theory bro.

 

[UKBengali]

Another good news, guys, WS-10 "Taihang" engine finally in mass production stage, production rate has been achieving 100 percent growth lately
Source: PLA daily 2017年06月10日 09:10:33 来源： 解放军报

优质民企深度介入，航发领域创新步伐明显加快：某重要型号航空发动机精品叶片的产能提高一倍，某核心部件的加工周期由8个月缩短至两个月，空军主战飞机的航空发动机产能成倍增长。
read more:http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2017-06/10/c_129629719.htm

Any data on how many can be produced in a year?

 

[Han Patriot]

Another good news, guys, WS-10 "Taihang" engine finally in mass production stage, production rate has been achieving 100 percent growth lately
Source: PLA daily 2017年06月10日 09:10:33 来源： 解放军报

优质民企深度介入，航发领域创新步伐明显加快：某重要型号航空发动机精品叶片的产能提高一倍，某核心部件的加工周期由8个月缩短至两个月，空军主战飞机的航空发动机产能成倍增长。
read more:http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2017-06/10/c_129629719.htm

Deino, this is from Xinhua, I guess we can trust this?? =). If the production doubled for components and engines, it meant they were already producing it. Hence, how come people still doubt domestic engine is equipping our front line fighter, J10, J11, etc?

空军主战飞机 = Frontline fighter aircraft, meaning J11 & J10.

 

[帅的一匹]

Deino, this is from Xinhua, I guess we can trust this?? =). If the production doubled for components and engines, it meant they were already producing it. Hence, how come people still doubt domestic engine is equipping our front line fighter, J10, J11, etc?

空军主战飞机 = Frontline fighter aircraft, meaning J11 & J10.

Means how many WS10 we can produce each year?