Chinese Aero Engine information thread

[Deino]

... without afterburner.

And here I'm simply not sure: this video-clip is too small, too blurred and too brief to be sure that no AB are used and again far from spectacular !

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

And here I'm simply not sure: this video-clip is too small, too blurred and too brief to be sure that no AB are used and again far from spectacular !

The F-22 crazy climbing footage is also small, but you can still see something like this.

J-20: without two shock diamonds = without afterburner on both engines

F-22: with two shock diamonds = with afterburner on both engines

 

[Asoka]

Come on ... each modern fighter can climb vertically. the question is only for how long.

I really don't know why You again and again bring up this video. It shows the J-20 climbing ... YES, but since the one who took these images is also moving You cannot disclose how long and even more since the J-20 is so small if the AB is not engaged during this climb.
In fact - and I know I will get my bashings for that again - it is nothing spectacular, simply lame even more to admit.

Deino

You still don't understanding the significance of start climbing vertically at slow speed, without slowing down at the top, and not using afterburner to do that.

It shows the Dry Thrust to Weight Ratio is > 1. That is the Dry Thrust itself is greater than the weight of the aircraft.

"Underpowered", it is not. J-20 using WS-10, it is not.

"it is nothing spectacular" To you, it isn't.

An Olympic powerlifter usually makes an EXPLOSIVE jerk to lift the heavy barbell over his head.

If someone is able to lift the same weight SLOWLY overhead his from the ground.

Who has more strength?

And here I'm simply not sure: this video-clip is too small, too blurred and too brief to be sure that no AB are used and again far from spectacular !

There are many J-20 video clips on youtube. They are ALL showing J-20 don't need to turn on the afterburner to make those agile turns and moves.

Able to NOT using the Afterburner is not the same as MUST using the afterburners to make same moves. It means a world of difference in Dry Thrust.

And here I'm simply not sure: this video-clip is too small, too blurred and too brief to be sure that no AB are used and again far from spectacular !

"far from spectacular" Then look at other youtube videos. NO AB were ever used. From my experience.

You haven't grasped the significance of climbing vertically w/o AB for a large aircraft means. It means J-20's engine has a freaking large thrust, larger than F-22's, larger than T50's. "Underpowered", it is NOT. Using WS-10, or AL-41F, it is NOT.

The F-22 crazy climbing footage is also small, but you can still see something like this.

View attachment 364208

J-20: without two shock diamonds = without afterburner on both engines

F-22: with two shock diamonds = with afterburner on both engines

The point we need to zero in is whether a plane need to use AB to do the similar moves or not. If it is spectacular but need to turned on AB to do that, the plane could only do that for a few minutes before the engine overheat or run out fuel.

It also leaves a very distinctive heat signature with very hot and very exhaust flame shooting out of the nozzle, leaving the plane very easy to spot, very far away. Not good to dodge a modern heat seeking missile.

 

[j20blackdragon]

The afterburner 'shock diamond' is not always visible.

The shock diamond is usually very visible in low light conditions. Su-33 example below.

Sometimes it is only moderately visible.

Sometimes it is not visible at all. J-15 example below.

The J-20 was using afterburners at Zhuhai 2016.

 

[Deino]

...The J-20 was using afterburners at Zhuhai 2016.
View attachment 364262

You really made my day !

Like I said, these videos were so much blurred and the J-20 much too small to conclude they did NOT use the AB ... in fact - even more to the contrary - as this image clearly shows, they used it and so it is not that far fetched that they used it not only in this split/break but especially in that climb as well.

Deino

 

[Asoka]

The afterburner 'shock diamond' is not always visible.

The shock diamond is usually very visible in low light conditions. Su-33 example below.

Sometimes it is only moderately visible.

Sometimes it is not visible at all. J-15 example below.

The J-20 was using afterburners at Zhuhai 2016.
View attachment 364262

The first couple pictures are Russian Su-33. it's engine are

• Empty weight: 18,400 kg (40,600 lb)
• Loaded weight: 29,940 kg (66,010 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 33,000 kg (72,752 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × AL-31F3 afterburning turbofans
  • Dry thrust: 74.5 kN (16,750 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 125.5 kN (28,214 lbf) each

The last picture with a yellow plane is a Chinese J-15, it uses a WS-10 engine.

• Empty weight: 17500 kg (38600 lb)
• Loaded weight: 27000 kg (60000 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 33000 kg (72752 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × WS-10A[37] afterburning turbofans[37]
  • Dry thrust: 89.17 kN (20,050 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 135 kN[37] (33,000 lbf[37]) each
• Yes, can see that Russian Su-33 is using afterburner. We can't determine J-15 is using AB. J-15's empty weight is one ton lower than Su-33 and have a more powerful engine. Plus we don't know the loading condition J-15.
• 
  
• Right now, J-15 pilots are purely in the beginning stage of training, doing only landing and take off. So there is no weapon mounted and minimal fuel.

The first couple pictures are Russian Su-33. it's engine are

• Empty weight: 18,400 kg (40,600 lb)
• Loaded weight: 29,940 kg (66,010 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 33,000 kg (72,752 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × AL-31F3 afterburning turbofans
  • Dry thrust: 74.5 kN (16,750 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 125.5 kN (28,214 lbf) each

The last picture with a yellow plane is a Chinese J-15, it uses a WS-10 engine.

• Empty weight: 17500 kg (38600 lb)
• Loaded weight: 27000 kg (60000 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 33000 kg (72752 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × WS-10A[37] afterburning turbofans[37]
  • Dry thrust: 89.17 kN (20,050 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 135 kN[37] (33,000 lbf[37]) each
• Yes, can see that Russian Su-33 is using afterburner. We can't determine J-15 is using AB. J-15's empty weight is one ton lower than Su-33 and have a more powerful engine. Plus we don't know the loading condition J-15.
• 
  
• Right now, J-15 pilots are purely in the beginning stage of training, doing only landing and take off. So there is no weapon mounted and minimal fuel.

If anyone think J-20 is using AB at the Airshow, he needs eye glasses.

This is J-20 taking off with Afterburner.

This is J-10 using AB under cloudy condition.

This is J-20 flying under similar cloudy condition. Do you think it is also using AB? I don't see a long blue flame shoot out. I must need some eye glasses.

 

[Deino]

This is J-20 flying under similar cloudy condition. Do you think it is also using AB?

View attachment 364271

Thanks for posting this image: And now You size this one down to the same size as shown in that video ... et voila !! Maybe my eyes are not good enough, but at this small size I really cannot see any AB even if we know that they used it in the original images ! As such this whole discussion of "they did not use an AB" is mute ...

 

[Asoka]

Thanks for posting this image: And now You size this one down to the same size as shown in that video ... et voila !! Maybe my eyes are not good enough, but at this small size I really cannot see any AB even if we know that they used it in the original images ! As such this whole discussion of "they did not use an AB" is mute ...

View attachment 364272

None of the above image shows J-20 is using AB, in my opinion. I look for a loooong blue intense flame shooting out of the nozzles.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

You really made my day !

Like I said, these videos were so much blurred and the J-20 much too small to conclude they did NOT use the AB ... in fact - even more to the contrary - as this image clearly shows, they used it and so it is not that far fetched that they used it not only in this split/break but especially in that climb as well.

Deino

So Black Dragon has helped you to defend my argument.

Still, this fella doesn't support the theory of the J-20 using the AL-31FM2.

PS, the J-20 at the Zhuhai show was flying at the low light foggy condition where the shock diamond shall become more visible, yet we haven't seen any sign of the shock diamond.

So no afterburner was used.

 

[Asoka]

I guess some people may not be familiar with what a red hot afterburner with looong blue flame looks like. Lets review them for various planes under different lighting conditions. It's an awesome scene to behold.

 

[Asoka]

 

[Asoka]

The afterburner 'shock diamond' is not always visible.

The shock diamond is usually very visible in low light conditions. Su-33 example below.

Sometimes it is only moderately visible.

Sometimes it is not visible at all. J-15 example below.

The J-20 was using afterburners at Zhuhai 2016.
View attachment 364262

"Sometimes it is not visible at all. J-15 example below." This is funny. LOL. It shows J-15 NOT using the AB. If you see a very long blue flame shooting out like the Russian Su-33s, you must have excellent eyes. I don't.

 

[messiach]

No one found by that name MEng.

MEng - Mechanical engineering.

 

[Pepsi Cola]

Here is an image of the J-15 take off with the afterburner visible, but only before the J-15 lift off and disappeared right after. So it could be that the J-15 only needed the after burner for a brief period to get the plane off the ground, but shut off the after burner right after

J-15 taking off a ramp under low light condition also does not show after burner.

 

[Asoka]

Here is an image of the J-15 take off with the afterburner visible, but only before the J-15 lift off and disappeared right after. So it could be that the J-15 only needed the after burner for a brief period to get the plane off the ground, but shut off the after burner right after

J-15 taking off a ramp under low light condition also does not show after burner.

Why would anyone turn off their AfterBurner in the middle of their short take off on a Aircraft Carrier? To greatly improve their chance of plunging into the ocean, a few feet below?