Chinese Aero Engine information thread

[Ultima Thule]

So Black Dragon has helped you to defend my argument.

Still, this fella doesn't support the theory of the J-20 using the AL-31FM2.

PS, the J-20 at the Zhuhai show was flying at the low light foggy condition where the shock diamond shall become more visible, yet we haven't seen any sign of the shock diamond.

So no afterburner was used.

Because their western EGO can't accept the fact that Chinese engine on J-20 is already surpass western ones

 

[Pepsi Cola]

I'm a noob. Don't judge me ))))

 

[Asoka]

Because their western EGO can't accept the fact that Chinese engine on J-20 is already surpass western ones

Things didn't need to turn out this way. They have the most dominant Air Machine in the world, the F-22, but decided to stop production at 188 instead of 800 as planned. They also have the world's most powerful engine in production, the F135 with max. thrust >196kN and they put it on F-35, and decided to produce 2400+ of those flying pigs, or flying coffins.

Their Western Ego got them good.

 

[BoQ77]

1. You could see that F-22 using afterburner doing that turn clearly. Yes.
But how we could make sure that's the best performance of F-22.
Compare to F-22 in not-the-best performance is meaningless.

2. J-20 using AB or not in this or that turn. It's hard to tell because of smog. But I think I did see it using AB in the flight at Zhuhai Airshow,

start to make a climb

3. During the video J-20 climbed vertically in 11 seconds. I don't consider that's long time. You can even reach that using inertia. J-20 always do that to make an upside down turn.

4. Another matter we don't know THE WEIGHT AT THE TIME OF J-20. That's the important thing.
J-20 debut time could be counted in seconds. It can burn down most of its fuel to reach the lighter weight and remove other non-related things on it for the better performance.

Just check the tight turn performed by both J-20 and F-22, while the F-22 did use the afterburner, but the J-20 didn't even use the afterburner.

PS, the J-20 did perform a longer vertical climbing than the F-22 without using the afterburner as well.

Also, the J-20 can carry the external fuel twice as much as that of the F-22, so that means the maximum takeoff weight of the J-20 is also significantly greater than that of the F-22.

How the J-20 could achieve this feat with an underpowered AL-31F?

View attachment 363654

View attachment 363655

 

[Asoka]

I'm a noob. Don't judge me ))))

"In computer science, a NOP or NOOP (short for No Operation) is an assembly language instruction, programming language statement, or computer protocol command that does nothing."

 

[BoQ77]

None of the above image shows J-20 is using AB, in my opinion. I look for a loooong blue intense flame shooting out of the nozzles.

Thanks for posting this image: And now You size this one down to the same size as shown in that video ... et voila !! Maybe my eyes are not good enough, but at this small size I really cannot see any AB even if we know that they used it in the original images ! As such this whole discussion of "they did not use an AB" is mute ...

View attachment 364272

@Deino : Asok said that J-20 in above pic didn't use AB
@Asok : we all said that the J-20 in above pic using AB
the long blue flame shooting out as you said is FULL AB in visible condition

 

[Asoka]

View attachment 364437

@Deino : Asok said that J-20 in above pic didn't use AB
@Asok : we all said that the J-20 in above pic using AB

I will be quiet until the PDF members figure out what is Afterburner. Hint: turn on the afterburner is not just turn on the ignition of the engine.

How can a senior member of PDF with the rank of General don't know what is turning on the afterburner like?

Do he really think afterburner is just seeing some flame from the nozzle, not a whole lot, like half a body length long?

How could anybody think this two planes have the same engine state of both turning on the Afterburner?

The Butt Gang boys, who likes to compare the nozzle of J-20 with the AL-31FN are convinced that J-20 is using that Russian engine. How come their afterburners doesn't look anywhere like each other?

What kind of topics does this member usually spend his time on?

Man, I am floored!

Excuse me. Let me pick up my jaw from the ground first, before I speak again.

 

[gambit]

This is a great video comparing the demo of T50 and F-22. You can clearly see F-22 requires afterburners, while T50 don't.

This is where you are wrong.

The F119 is considered to be a near turbojet while it is technically a turbofan. In other words, the F119's bypass air is so low that the engine APPEARS to be in constant afterburner without actually being in reheat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbofan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbojet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_F119

The F119's bypass ratio (BPR) is 0.30 : 1

That is practically turbojet territory.

But the F110's bypass ratio is not that far behind either.

http://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f110/

The use of AB in maneuvers does not mean the jet need AB to execute a maneuver. In order to sustain a 9g turn, and unlike you I know what that feels like, then yes, AB will be required. But in ACM, you will want to execute the tightest turn you can and if AB is needed, you will use AB for those SUSTAINED maneuvers. For instantaneous maneuvers, AB is not always required. Aerodynamics will make the displacement just fine. The issue is SUSTAINED MANEUVERS that will required reheat to overcome speed loss, which mean decreased aerodynamic forces on the flight control surfaces.

This is what make the F119 engine deceptive. It LOOKS like it is in reheat when it is not. That means the F-22 pilot have an unknown reserve of engine power available to him.

Unknown to you, not to him.

You do not know what you are talking about.

 

[gambit]

The afterburner 'shock diamond' is not always visible.

The shock diamond is usually very visible in low light conditions.

You are correct.

Fast forward to timestamp 1:15.

By this time, the Bone is in a climb angle NOT normal for a take off. It was an airshow take off. Nevertheless, all four engines -- General Electric F101-GE-102 -- were in reheat for this airshow take off and their AB flames were not visible.

That does not mean the AB flames do not exists. They do. But as you pointed out, under certain lighting conditions, the AB flames may not be visible for photography quality images for a few minutes.

 

[Asoka]

You are correct.

Fast forward to timestamp 1:15.

By this time, the Bone is in a climb angle NOT normal for a take off. It was an airshow take off. Nevertheless, all four engines -- General Electric F101-GE-102 -- were in reheat for this airshow take off and their AB flames were not visible.

That does not mean the AB flames do not exists. They do. But as you pointed out, under certain lighting conditions, the AB flames may not be visible for photography quality images for a few minutes.

I finally got it. Thanks so much for your enlightenment, gambit. I am not as dumb as you may think.

 

[BoQ77]

Did you notice that all of your below pic taken at take off ?

I guess some people may not be familiar with what a red hot afterburner with looong blue flame looks like. Lets review them for various planes under different lighting conditions. It's an awesome scene to behold.

View attachment 364289 View attachment 364290 View attachment 364291 View attachment 364292 View attachment 364293View attachment 364324

 

[Han Patriot]

Can we just stop this debate? Fine, there is no native engine, it's all a failure. Until then, let us assume there is no working engine at all, therefore, let us share news in this thread. China is famous for announcing things for something which happened years before. Let's see and wait.

 

[onebyone]

Can we just stop this debate? Fine, there is no native engine, it's all a failure. Until then, let us assume there is no working engine at all, therefore, let us share news in this thread. China is famous for announcing things for something which happened years before. Let's see and wait.

 

[j20blackdragon]

 

[Deino]

As far as I know an old image of an over-ambitious modeller adding a TVC-nozzle to his kit.