China's new 'carrier killer' for Pakistan's JF-17 Thunder fighter

[Donatello]

Very good question. I'll put it in a nutshell. You can't destroy an AC with the usual cruise missile. You'd need a big explosive warhead to do that which means a massive increase in the weight of the missile. Which means maneuvering the missile by its intrinsic guidance systems in the terminal phase from stand off OTH ranges on a moving target, which is extremely difficult due to the missile's mass and kinetic energy, unlike the much smaller, lighter and easily maneuverable SAMs, AAMs, ATGMs etc.

The Chinese too are trying to get this technology perfected for their big long range DF series missiles for destroying ACs but have not been successful so far. However, the Americans are getting their Tomahawks equipped with NG explosives to take on moving targets with some new fangled electronic guidance systems to take on small ships and moving land targets. But destroying ACs is another story. You'd require half a dozen such missiles simultaneously to destroy an AC which has its own defensive measures against such attacks as well as the Carrier Strike Group which it is part of.

The aim is not to destroy it, but render it incapable for launching aircraft. If an aircraft carrier cannot launch it's aircraft, it's effectively useless.

Actually, that is the aim of every naval warfare now. Neutralize the threat, no need to destroy it completely.

well heres a scenario

india and pakistan are at war and indian navy is given the task to block your sea lines

now the question is how

answer is simple a squad of SU-30MKI at baroda lainches a attack on karachi and gadawar and dessimates all the naval ships of PN standing there and the second wave of jags finishes the job

well the things are not that easy but not that difficult aswell for india ause

1. all of your Air force will be monitored and all your actions will be tracked and followed very closeli by the indian ground based radars which even today scan all pakistani airspace as much as untill the hindukush ranges

2.All pakistani airforce will be bizzi in fighting and keeping indian iar force at bay where on earth will they be able to spare a squad of your almighty JF17s to diliver there define CM-400 and other so called carrier killers cause

a. there are at least 12 squads(240) of fighters on owr western border to keep PAF bizzi that includes

2 squads of M2k
2squads of MIG29
5squads of MKI
3squads of Jaguars

b. besudes this 3 dedicated phalcon AWACS platforms will keep even a better eye on PAF

c.round the clock Spy SAT cover(both israeli & indian + a few inputs from russian and americans aswell) will keep even a better eye on all you movements

d. every CBG will have at least 1 squad ok Mig 29K + 6 K25 & K31 ASW & AWAC helicopters backed by there own radars and anty aircraft missile systems

3. what about other ships of indian navy do you realli think they will stay away form the party

well brother thing is there is nothing you can do to take on owr CBGs they are not for you

While India has to maintain some airforce against China, Pakistan doesn't. So it can put all it's fighters against India in no time.

Last, as usual from Indian members, IAF is not the only one with dedicated AWACs aircraft in it's fleet.

 

[GURU DUTT]

The aim is not to destroy it, but render it incapable for launching aircraft. If an aircraft carrier cannot launch it's aircraft, it's effectively useless.

Actually, that is the aim of every naval warfare now. Neutralize the threat, no need to destroy it completely.




While India has to maintain some airforce against China, Pakistan doesn't. So it can put all it's fighters against India in no time.

Last, as usual from Indian members, IAF is not the only one with dedicated AWACs aircraft in it's fleet.

thats true brother but the thing is chinese have to over come the IAF & IN bases in andaman and nicobar islands which sits owt like a watch god at the gates of amllacca starits + chinese presence in sri lanka will be taken care of by IAF & IN air bases in Goa, karnataka , kerala , tamil nadu while for karachi and gadawar owr bases in baroda , jaiselmair and pune are well equipped to handle all chinese and pakistani air force in southren part of pakistan while the air bases in central and north india will hold PAF & can even give PLAAF a very bloody nose if ever they try to cross the himalayas

now tell me what will you do if chinese like in all previous indo - pak wars stay owt and just provide you with free supply of wepons

as for awacs no dought you have 4 chinese AWACS couple of swedish AWACS but your a intellegent person please can they hold agaisnt 3 Phalcons backed equal number of Indian ASEA based AWACS which again will be backed mutiple layered and muli band indian ground based and aerostat radars + on open sea's we have P8i's and K 31 AWACs and very soon E2D is in the offening

how will you counter it & not to forget owr MKIs are called mini awacs deu to there power full PESA radars while in couple of years they will have the ASEA upgrade and a new genration of Jammers + EW suite

 

[Jf Thunder]

wow, i didn't get one word what you people said what i understood was
"India has very strong navy, it cannot be defeated, Pakistan Navy is too weak, we have no chance of firing and successfully hitting our missiles on targets, if war starts India will be the clear victor from the start, India can take on China and Pakistan from both sides at the same time"

now my answer is that you should not underestimate us, an Air craft carrier does not move very fast, but missile do, if we aim for the peak of the Carrier, it will most likely at least hit its bottom half, and if does hit anywhere successfully, it will be bye bye to the big ship, and you are not the only one with radars and jammeres, i am no technical person but at least i know this we are not so stupid enough to not have anything to counter the "Invincible" India, we have some tricks up our sleeves which one cannot disclose.
well that's all i could come up with

 

[illusion8]

did i mention the indian subs can fire sub launched club , bhramos & maybe exoset which we will get with scorpenes + the classified stuff we got thanks to israel

PN's agosta's can fire exocets too.

 

[GURU DUTT]

wow, i didn't get one word what you people said what i understood was
"India has very strong navy, it cannot be defeated, Pakistan Navy is too weak, we have no chance of firing and successfully hitting our missiles on targets, if war starts India will be the clear victor from the start, India can take on China and Pakistan from both sides at the same time"

now my answer is that you should not underestimate us, an Air craft carrier does not move very fast, but missile do, if we aim for the peak of the Carrier, it will most likely at least hit its bottom half, and if does hit anywhere successfully, it will be bye bye to the big ship, and you are not the only one with radars and jammeres, i am no technical person but at least i know this we are not so stupid enough to not have anything to counter the "Invincible" India, we have some tricks up our sleeves which one cannot disclose.
well that's all i could come up with

well brother i neversaid IAF & IN are invincible but pakistan is in no postion to cahllenege us and thats priceislli why you made babur, raad & nasr ....ps...they are not for sea but for mainland(india) when your estabishment after whenever they are cornerred starts gloating about neuclear war

and yes we have been prepairing and builduing owr defences aginst two front war ever since 1962 defeat from china which was speeded up after 1971 when we saw US can come to your aid and we have prepared well in advance for a possible two front war

but if ever china trys to engage us my dear freind dont rule owt the open and unconditional US support to us while Japan and S korea & vietnam & Tawian are already to much irrtated of chinese bullying in that sector do you think they will keep quite so rule owt china buddy chinese dont think like pakistanies ...period

as for your so called "secret trump cards & some tricks up your sleeves" then biddy dont forget that we indians are not called cunning and evil followers of chankyan ideology for no reason either

PN's agosta's can fire exocets too.

well brother good for them but owr P8i's can take owt there subs as soon as they leave there safe shores and enter open seas and they wil be the first to scan and clear the area i hope you know what i mean

 

[Dash]

Yes the fighters have the capability. Even a single or two missiles can do the job. It depends where the missile hits the ship. If it hits an area where ammunition is stored then secondary explosions due to ships own weapons would be contributing factor.

Then there shall be lots of fuel and other flammable material available that shall render the ship out of service even if not sink her.

out of 100%, whats the kill probability then?

 

[illusion8]

well brother good for them but owr P8i's can take owt there subs as soon as they leave there safe shores and enter open seas and they wil be the first to scan and clear the area i hope you know what i mean

The 3 advanced agosta 90B possessed by PN are a genuine threat to an ACC Bro and possibly the biggest threat in a war scenario, the ACC's will most likely and if they do will operate beyond the JF17's threat theater - as in beyond any land based fighter's ambit. The P8i's are surely a direct threat to PN's sub fleet as well.

Launching Shaheen's against an ACC - that's pure fantasy.

 

[graphican]

well buddy babur is not an ASM and cant hit a target moving at speeds above even 10 KMPH

We have got a navel version of it. Now weather it can hit moving targets or not is unknown - but - what is known is that it is nuclear capable and can hit targets with pin-point accuracy. Recent experiments of Hatf revealed that missile fall within 1 of the target flag and this tells what level of accuracy Pakistani missiles possess.

now when you will be gearing up to launch your baburs or have launched them they will be instantli picked up by multi layered PESA/ASEA based 3D & 4D radars based near pakistani border with india and will track/calculate and alert all indian offensive & defensive assets in that area and all the launchers will be taken owt within minutes by batteries of indian land based bharmos as it flies more than twice the speed of sound

Babur launchers are mobile and a launcher can launch 3 missiles together. I do not think they will launch missiles and then wait for Indian Counter measures. After launching, if they are able to get 3 minutes time before an enemy missile hits that area, those 3 minutes would have given them enough distance to remain safe but you are forgetting one basic aspect here, Babur is a terrain hugging missile and can only be detected by a flying AWACS within a very short range. So none of your 2D and 3D radars near Pakistani borders will be able to see unless supported by an areal and closely flying AWACS - but - if AWACS was flying that near, why wouldn't it see an incoming AA missile from this side of the border? Secondly, cruise missile never fly on a linear path which any of your missile defense system could use. There is a reason why Indian minds are talking about Babur being a serious threat to India.

now comes the second part the already alerted indian Naval Armada will take on a barage of your babaurs and other so called "carrier killers" as almost all the ships in CBG have there multi layered radar shields and anty aircraft and anti missle shields cause til you missiles reach anywhere near them they would have changed the postion and come into attck mode and dont forget those CBGs will have there own air arm that will attack and help in taking owt your baburs thru its air to air missiles

Now this is where your post makes sense that air-defense system of Carrier will be your only shield but my point is that on land, kill ratio of missile to missile is less than 50% because of which multiple defense missiles are launched towards incoming object. Now you are talking about missile defense system on moving target and probably 10s of incoming missiles together. What survival chances do you think an AC would have in such a situation? As I mentioned, in order to survive, you must neutralize every incoming missile but for Pakistan to take your AC down, all we need is one hit of low-yeild device.

It doesn't matter how many side-gadgets an AC possess, when it comes to survival, it is alone who has to face all incoming threats and considering Pakistan's possible response, I do not see Indian AC getting closer to Pakistani waters unless Indian had attacked and had successfully eliminated defensive and offensive mechanisms of Pakistan but if India can think so, why don't you think Pakistan would want to attack Indian defensive and offensive mechanisms and approach AC in Indian waters? It would naive on your part if you think Pakistan won't. When daggers are drawn, attack is your best defense.

 

[illusion8]

We have got a navel version of it. Now weather it can hit moving targets or not is unknown - but - what is known is that it is nuclear capable and can hit targets with pin-point accuracy. Recent experiments of Hatf revealed that missile fall within 1 of the target flag and this tells what level of accuracy Pakistani missiles possess.



Babur launchers are mobile and a launcher can launch 3 missiles together. Babur is a terrain hugging missile and can only be detected by a flying AWACS within a very short range. So none of your 2D and 3D radars near Pakistani borders will be able to see unless supported by an areal and closely flying AWACS

Can you provide any proof for the statements marked in red that you made?

 

[Jf Thunder]

and yes we have been prepairing and builduing owr defences aginst two front war ever since 1962 defeat from china which was speeded up after 1971 when we saw US can come to your aid and we have prepared well in advance for a possible two front war

US did nothing for our aid, and you don't have to worry about it it wont do anything to us or you, the last thing it wants is a war with another Nuclear country, be it India or Pakistan

Can you provide any proof for the statements marked in red that you made?

they are confidential? its like asking to bring and show you our nukes as proof that we do have them ._.

 

[GURU DUTT]

The 3 advanced agosta 90B possessed by PN are a genuine threat to an ACC Bro and possibly the biggest threat in a war scenario, the ACC's will most likely and if they do will operate beyond the JF17's threat theater - as in beyond any land based fighter's ambit. The P8i's are surely a direct threat to PN's sub fleet as well.

Launching Shaheen's against an ACC - that's pure fantasy.

well is that sarcasm or a hit under the belt buddy

dont you know that a CBG has its very own under surface scanning and anty ship arseneell apart from the ASW helies which almost evry indian naval vessel carries

and why on earth are we buying, making and leasing modern subs for (207s,KILOs,scorpenes and the neuklear ones)

above all why are we investing in 12+8 P8i's

 

[illusion8]

US did nothing for our aid, and you don't have to worry about it it wont do anything to us or you, the last thing it wants is a war with another Nuclear country, be it India or Pakistan


they are confidential? its like asking to bring and show you our nukes as proof that we do have them ._.

That's BS.

well is that sarcasm or a hit under the belt buddy

dont you know that a CBG has its very own under surface scanning and anty ship arseneell apart from the ASW helies which almost evry indian naval vessel carries

and why on earth are we buying, making and leasing modern subs for (207s,KILOs,scorpenes and the neuklear ones)

above all why are we investing in 12+8 P8i's

It's a threat bro - does not necessarily mean a successful threat.

 

[Jf Thunder]

That's BS.



It's a threat bro - does not necessarily mean a successful threat.

whats BS?

 

[GURU DUTT]

We have got a navel version of it. Now weather it can hit moving targets or not is unknown - but - what is known is that it is nuclear capable and can hit targets with pin-point accuracy. Recent experiments of Hatf revealed that missile fall within 1 of the target flag and this tells what level of accuracy Pakistani missiles possess.



Babur launchers are mobile and a launcher can launch 3 missiles together. I do not think they will launch missiles and then wait for Indian Counter measures. After launching, if they are able to get 3 minutes time before an enemy missile hits that area, those 3 minutes would have given them enough distance to remain safe but you are forgetting one basic aspect here, Babur is a terrain hugging missile and can only be detected by a flying AWACS within a very short range. So none of your 2D and 3D radars near Pakistani borders will be able to see unless supported by an areal and closely flying AWACS - but - if AWACS was flying that near, why wouldn't it see an incoming AA missile from this side of the border? Secondly, cruise missile never fly on a linear path which any of your missile defense system could use. There is a reason why Indian minds are talking about Babur being a serious threat to India.




Now this is where your post makes sense that air-defense system of Carrier will be your only shield but my point is that on land, kill ratio of missile to missile is less than 50% because of which multiple defense missiles are launched towards incoming object. Now you are talking about missile defense system on moving target and probably 10s of incoming missiles together. What survival chances do you think an AC would have in such a situation? As I mentioned, in order to survive, you must neutralize every incoming missile but for Pakistan to take your AC down, all we need is one hit of low-yeild device.

It doesn't matter how many side-gadgets an AC possess, when it comes to survival, it is alone who has to face all incoming threats and considering Pakistan's possible response, I do not see Indian AC getting closer to Pakistani waters unless Indian had attacked and had successfully eliminated defensive and offensive mechanisms of Pakistan but if India can think so, why don't you think Pakistan would want to attack Indian defensive and offensive mechanisms and approach AC in Indian waters? It would naive on your part if you think Pakistan won't. When daggers are drawn, attack is your best defense.

well first part show me the link

secondli i know babur is raod mobile and has shoot and scoot capality thats pricesly why we are investing so heavily on spy sat network that scans and detects all movements of your strategicl forces like missile launch sites and launchers

as for countring baburs mid air i guess ill take chances with IAF prepairdiness in this area

as for arial defnce of CBG and naval blockade brother things are way much more complicated than you think but its good to be optimistic ...good luck

 

[illusion8]

whats BS?

Best Statement ever.