China's navy no longer so inferior to Japan's, experts say

[BoQ77]

Vietnam is considering to give the harbors for US, Japanese, Australian, Indian warships .. to use when needed.

 

[Aepsilons]

I agree, China simply can't challenge Japan as of now because China has much more area to guard. If South China Sea Fleet leaves, who will guard the disputed islands from vietnam?

Maybe in 2024, but by then Vietnam will have the strongest navy of ASEAN and China will probably still have to fight at 2/3rd strength.

I have served in the JMSDF. I have taken part in naval exercises that focused on US 7th Fleet's CBGs and on the ship that i was stationed at, the JS Chokai.

In the event of a naval conflict with a particular East Asian nation, the US 7th Fleet, would engage and cut to pieces the PLAN's South Sea Fleet, and wreck havoc on key military installations in Southern China. It would also be expected that the ROC Navy's surface fleet would contribute in the prosecution of this goal.

The Combined Japanese Fleet would eviscerate the North Sea Fleet and East Sea Fleet of PLAN. They stand no chance at all. And with the creation of 4 CBGs for the JMSDF, projection of power is enhanced.

Let me say that I do not want a conflict to happen. As a military man, I know very well the price of serving in a nation's armed service. War is no game. Many lives will be lost on both sides.

 

[boke]

首先，作为一个中国人，我对中日友好不抱任何幻想，日本是一个贪婪的、野心勃勃且极富侵略性的国家，它比德国还有一个更致命的缺陷：它和它的国民不尊重历史，没有丝毫的反省和羞耻性，且擅长狡辩！现阶段任何为了自己的一己之私（先不说这部分自私是合法还是非法）与日本合作的国家都有些病态的健忘，包括现在美国，不要忘记珍珠港那死去的三千多冤魂，日本也不会忘了两颗原子弹死去的国民，东南亚的某些国家更不要忘了日本当年在自己的国土上是多么凶残！忘记，迟早是会付出代价的！
其次，简单的对比中国的军队建设是错误的。中国有比日本打得多的国土和边境线需要守护，为什么中国的海军空军舰只飞机不应该多过日本？事实上日本这么个弹丸小国有多少预警机和反潜巡逻机，中国又有多少，网上搜索一下很容易看出来，为什么日本这样一个战败国疯狂的发展军备没有国家去指责，反而中国正常的强军行为被说三道四疯狂围堵？中国一句古话：没做亏心事，不怕鬼叫门。况且，现在中国不是鬼，总是絮絮叨叨妖魔化中国的才是!
最后，我对楼上一个帖子里面丑化中国开国领袖的行为很感到不齿。没有毛主席的大力支持，越南现在和南北朝鲜的状态会有什么两样吗？中国有悠久的历史，也很早就有军队，可是中国没有称霸世界的野心和行动。中国坚持朋友来了有美酒，豺狼来了有猎枪，朋友和敌人区别对待！屁股决定脑袋，想坐在中国的对立面还想从中国获益，你不觉得自己很错位吗？

 

[Aepsilons]

首先，作为一个中国人，我对中日友好不抱任何幻想，日本是一个贪婪的、野心勃勃且极富侵略性的国家，它比德国还有一个更致命的缺陷：它和它的国民不尊重历史，没有丝毫的反省和羞耻性，且擅长狡辩！现阶段任何为了自己的一己之私（先不说这部分自私是合法还是非法）与日本合作的国家都有些病态的健忘，包括现在美国，不要忘记珍珠港那死去的三千多冤魂，日本也不会忘了两颗原子弹死去的国民，东南亚的某些国家更不要忘了日本当年在自己的国土上是多么凶残！忘记，迟早是会付出代价的！
其次，简单的对比中国的军队建设是错误的。中国有比日本打得多的国土和边境线需要守护，为什么中国的海军空军舰只飞机不应该多过日本？事实上日本这么个弹丸小国有多少预警机和反潜巡逻机，中国又有多少，网上搜索一下很容易看出来，为什么日本这样一个战败国疯狂的发展军备没有国家去指责，反而中国正常的强军行为被说三道四疯狂围堵？中国一句古话：没做亏心事，不怕鬼叫门。况且，现在中国不是鬼，总是絮絮叨叨妖魔化中国的才是!
最后，我对楼上一个帖子里面丑化中国开国领袖的行为很感到不齿。没有毛主席的大力支持，越南现在和南北朝鲜的状态会有什么两样吗？中国有悠久的历史，也很早就有军队，可是中国没有称霸世界的野心和行动。中国坚持朋友来了有美酒，豺狼来了有猎枪，朋友和敌人区别对待！屁股决定脑袋，想坐在中国的对立面还想从中国获益，你不觉得自己很错位吗？

Sadly, not many can understand this. Please communicate with us in English Language.

Many thanks for your kind consideration.

 

[Genesis]

I have served in the JMSDF. I have taken part in naval exercises that focused on US 7th Fleet's CBGs and on the ship that i was stationed at, the JS Chokai.

In the event of a naval conflict with a particular East Asian nation, the US 7th Fleet, would engage and cut to pieces the PLAN's South Sea Fleet, and wreck havoc on key military installations in Southern China. It would also be expected that the ROC Navy's surface fleet would contribute in the prosecution of this goal.

The Combined Japanese Fleet would eviscerate the North Sea Fleet and East Sea Fleet of PLAN. They stand no chance at all. And with the creation of 4 CBGs for the JMSDF, projection of power is enhanced.

Let me say that I do not want a conflict to happen. As a military man, I know very well the price of serving in a nation's armed service. War is no game. Many lives will be lost on both sides.

I thought about giving long reply, then I'll just say this, if Japan can actually have 4 CGBs by 2020, or even 2, or 1. I mean actual carriers I won't go American size, just 50,000 ton is good enough. I will give you my house in Vancouver. Deal.

我能理解你说的话。我能说流利的中国语言。

If you want to communicate yourself with others here, communicate in the English Language. And Thank you for understanding my point, I do hope that there will be no war or any conflict. Life is too precious.

谢谢
Thank You,
@Nihonjin1051

not to burst your bubble, but that's not fluent Chinese, it's not even close, more beginner and baidu translate then anything else. Nobody ever adds these 语言, and it's not the only thing.

 

[Genesis]

We have 2 Hyuga class light carriers, we have 1 active Izumo class light carrier, and building the 2nd one.

We have 16 of the Soryu class submarines, and building 5 more. We are building 2 Atago class destroyers.

By definition, we have the basis and assets to form a CBG.

Japan does not need to operate super carriers the size of Nimitz Class because we are not a global power that necessitates projecting power internationally as in the case of the United States. But believe me, my friend, we will be able to project power any where in the Asia-Pacific with relative impunity with our 4 CBGs.

Do remember that this is not taking into consideration the 3-4 Wasp Class AAS (Amphibious Assault Ships) that will be purchased. So, you do the math.



I can understand majority of written Chinese. Remember that Kanji is traditional Chinese characters. You guys use simplified characters.

50,000 tons is not American standard, I said not American standard, we are at 65,000 ton and increasing by the carrier. American class carries about 20 on each, so Japanese's biggest can carry what 13? What are 52 fighters going to do? Assuming 4 CBGs.

And 3-4 Wasp class? I'll also give you my house if it happens ever.

Also do you know what this means 我能说流利的中国语言? As broken a sentence as it is? If all you can do is read Kanji, than I also speak Japanese.

 

[Aepsilons]

其实我更愿意和各个国家的网民直接交流，而不是看那些国家的政客在媒体上表演，无论用哪种语言，只要能够让意思传递，我认为就可以了，至于我本人，我有用自己民族语言的足够理由。很不希望有任何动乱和战争，不论是和谁！

In that case, then I agree with you, and I respect you all the more. May there always be amicability between China and Japan.

Please forgive me if i may have seemed abrasive in my first communique with you, it is just that i prefer you to write in english so that others can read. But that is your choice.

Take Care.

50,000 tons is not American standard, I said not American standard, we are at 65,000 ton and increasing by the carrier. American class carries about 20 on each, so Japanese's biggest can carry what 13? What are 52 fighters going to do? Assuming 4 CBGs.

And 3-4 Wasp class? I'll also give you my house if it happens ever.

Also do you know what this means 我能说流利的中国语言? As broken a sentence as it is? If all you can do is read Kanji, than I also speak Japanese.

OT: During WWII, one of the most effective carriers that the Imperial Japanese Navy used as the 2 small light carriers, the Soryu, and the Hiryu. Far more effective in speed , maneuverability and in taking down US escort destroyers during the war, as compared to the more cumbersome and larger carriers such as the Zuikaku and others in its class.

OT2: When Japan acquires the F-35Bs , which will be an inventory for our Carrier Forces, it will be a game changer.

OT3: Remember that even Cantonese cannot speak Mandarin dialect, or understand each other, but can at least understand each other through writing. The same concept exists. To an extent, yes, you as a Chinese speaker (if you can understand traditional characters) , will be able to understand to a degree Japanese through writing communique. By the Kanji. It won't be 100% understanding, but concepts will be understood. We also have katakana and hiragana letters, which are phonetic, so it won't be understandable for you. But i'm sure you can learn.

And about the WASPs:

Onodera sets out plans to buy amphibious assault ships - IHS Jane's 360

 

[Genesis]

OT: During WWII, one of the most effective carriers that the Imperial Japanese Navy used as the 2 small light carriers, the Soryu, and the Hiryu. Far more effective in speed , maneuverability and in taking down US escort destroyers during the war, as compared to the more cumbersome and larger carriers such as the Zuikaku and others in its class.

OT2: When Japan acquires the F-35Bs , which will be an inventory for our Carrier Forces, it will be a game changer.

OT3: Remember that even Cantonese cannot speak Mandarin dialect, or understand each other, but can at least understand each other through writing. The same concept exists. To an extent, yes, you as a Chinese speaker (if you can understand traditional characters) , will be able to understand to a degree Japanese through writing communique. By the Kanji. It won't be 100% understanding, but concepts will be understood. We also have katakana and hiragana letters, which are phonetic, so it won't be understandable for you. But i'm sure you can learn.

Let's not argue about the carries anymore, obviously we can't come to an understanding, tonnage is key as Americans have shown, but apparently I must have misunderstood, as smaller carriers are the ways to go.

F-35B, could be a game changer, against North Korea, but obviously we can't come to an understanding on this too, as the only logical explanation, where 50 F-35 will devastate the entire Chinese air force is that our fighters are crap.

Third I'll ask again, do you know what this means? 我能说流利的中国语言.

 

[Akasa]

In a hypothetical naval conflict scenario, which the JMSDF has already prepared for, with China , the JMSDF's 4 Fleets: Esuko Kantai 1, Esuko Kantai 2, Esuko Kantai 3, and Esuko Kantai 4 would be mobilized. Japan MSDF would negotiate our forces through Sea of Japan, cancelling any enemy forrays by our ASW Force, this would prevent enemy subs from gaining any tactical advantage.

The Kaijo Jeitai Rengo Kantai [The Combined Fleet] would address the threat as a combined force, whereas the PLAN would have to scramble the East Sea Fleet, North Sea Fleet and possibly have to merge some assets of the South Sea Fleet. The length of time it would take the PLAN's 3 Fleets to meet , is a tactical blunder in itself.

That is assuming that (1) the PLAN is wholly unprepared for a conflict with Japan (suggesting a Japanese-initiated assault) and (2) the PLAN is the sole force that will be engaging Japanese forces. In any case in which two nations have premeditated knowledge of an impending conflict, it is assured that both sides would take punitive measures to maximize its force. If the PLAN knows that it's about to go into a brawl with Japan, one can be darn sure that they would calculate just how much firepower it is needed to hold off or even repel a potential US/Japanese assault. Sure, Japan's reserved territory allows it to muster its forces much faster , but the PLA Navy do have numbers on their side and nobody would sit idly by and allow the enemy to prepare.

By the time the South Fleet of the PLAN could merge, the North Sea Fleet and the East Sea Fleet would have been engaged already by the Kaijo Jeitai Rengo Kantai. We can calculate that the results of this battle would be in our favor.

The US 7th Fleet would prevent the South Sea Fleet from merging, and would be eradicated by USN7F's CBGs.

The weakness you see, is the fact that China's naval size is rather low. The fact that she has to address a larger expanse of territory, prevents the massing of key vessels. This will, ultimately, prove to be her achilles heel.

And Japan will take advantage of this to the maximum.

As will , of course, our American allies.

The achilles heel of this argument is the thought that the PLA Navy would be the only forces fighting against the opponent. In any case, engagement with the PLA Navy would not only involve fighting against an organized force with a larger dispersion of bases and supply points, but also the umbrella of land based aircraft and missiles. This means that the US and Japanese forces would not longer afford the luxury of engaging PLAN ships directly and imminently, but rather would be forced to defend themselves against land-based aircraft, which are suited solely for penetrating naval cover, as well. Simply put, putting up a fight against the PLA would not only involve engaging their naval assets, but also preventing their land based equipment, which neither the Japanese nor US Pacific forces could match in strength, from wiping out one's own.

 

[dlclong]

In the case of war, not in accordance with the American Japan's idea,
China will take our own strengths and deal with USA Japan ,,rather than by our weaknesses to attack strengths of others

 

[Aepsilons]

The achilles heel of this argument is the thought that the PLA Navy would be the only forces fighting against the opponent. In any case, engagement with the PLA Navy would not only involve fighting against an organized force with a larger dispersion of bases and supply points, but also the umbrella of land based aircraft and missiles. This means that the US and Japanese forces would not longer afford the luxury of engaging PLAN ships directly and imminently, but rather would be forced to defend themselves against land-based aircraft, which are suited solely for penetrating naval cover, as well. Simply put, putting up a fight against the PLA would not only involve engaging their naval assets, but also preventing their land based equipment, which neither the Japanese nor US Pacific forces could match in strength, from wiping out one's own.

This post reflects a miscalculation that the JASDF [Japan Air Self Defense Force] would sit idly by. No, it will stand on alert, and will negate forces within its area of control.

China's Air Force [Peoples Liberation Army Air Force] is divided and appropriated to cover the full expanse of China's territory: this includes the:
1)Beijing Military Region
2) Chengdu Military Region
3) Guangzhou Military Region
4) Jinan Military Region
5) Lanzhou Military Region
6) Shenyang Military Region

Due to China's deployment of its forces particularly the Chengdu Military Region and the Lanzhou Military Region, to address security concerns to its West and to the south, India. What remains will have to fly long distances to even meet Japanese forces. This is highly unlikely.

Thus, due to the geographic limitation that presents itself, the PLAAF's units that would most probably be able to engage acutely, would be from the Beijing Military Region, and the Jinan Military Region. These air units would most probably operate close to the shore , where it can easily return to base and refuel, meaning that Naval Assets of a Japan/ US Force will operate with impunity.

Without a naval force, China is vulnerable to a naval blockade, and other asymmetric tactical scenarios that will favor the Japan - US Combined Force.

Unfortunately, due to the size of China's land mass and territorial issues with neighbors, most of its military assets cannot be massed to form a cohesive unit, as it would render large swathes of its territories in the west and south unprotected. This would be a strategic blunder.
Thus i must reiterate that the strategic achilles heel of China is its size, which prevents the massing of necessary units in time.


Thanks.

 

[Luftwaffe]

All i have to say is quality over quantity. It would be inauspicious if the 4 Escort Fleets of the JMSDF were to be ever unleashed. The consequences towards the enemy force would be devastating. We are talking about the most advanced and powerful navy in Asia-Pacific. The enemy would be gutted. And I say this modestly.


Not taking into consideration our friends, the US 7th Fleet -- the Arm of the US Pacific Command.

Sorry my man, how do you know Chinese Naval Armada is inferior or has no quality did you visit it did you have technical information and men behind giving you detailed information AFAIK no information has ever been provided of most Battleships thus Debunked about quantity and not quality.

Lets not bring in US the Topic is CN vs Japanese Navy and lets also consider China is spending 3 times more than Japan on Advanced Navy Development. It is a fairly large Navy and the Air Wing with 400+ Aircraft is extremely potent compared to Japanese Naval Air Arm.

This post reflects a miscalculation that the JASDF [Japan Air Self Defense Force] would sit idly by. No, it will stand on alert, and will negate forces within its area of control.

China's Air Force [Peoples Liberation Army Air Force] is divided and appropriated to cover the full expanse of China's territory: this includes the:
1)Beijing Military Region
2) Chengdu Military Region
3) Guangzhou Military Region
4) Jinan Military Region
5) Lanzhou Military Region
6) Shenyang Military Region

Due to China's deployment of its forces particularly the Chengdu Military Region and the Lanzhou Military Region, to address security concerns to its West and to the south, India. What remains will have to fly long distances to even meet Japanese forces. This is highly unlikely.

Thus, due to the geographic limitation that presents itself, the PLAAF's units that would most probably be able to engage acutely, would be from the Beijing Military Region, and the Jinan Military Region. These air units would most probably operate close to the shore , where it can easily return to base and refuel, meaning that Naval Assets of a Japan/ US Force will operate with impunity.

Without a naval force, China is vulnerable to a naval blockade, and other asymmetric tactical scenarios that will favor the Japan - US Combined Force.

Unfortunately, due to the size of China's land mass and territorial issues with neighbors, most of its military assets cannot be massed to form a cohesive unit, as it would render large swathes of its territories in the west and south unprotected. This would be a strategic blunder.
Thus i must reiterate that the strategic achilles heel of China is its size, which prevents the massing of necessary units in time.

Thanks.

You penned it down all wrong now you are considering Chinese navy to tug boat Vietnamese navy. Do you have blue prints of Chinese Naval strategies I doubt, that is why China developing and developing to solve issues deploy more equipment you seem to think China has stopped the development and is just living on whatever they have. US will never engage China for Japan the WMD Chinese poses would end War no more US no more Japan no more China let snot think in foolish ways both are largest world trade partners US will never sacrifice themselves for Japan not going to happen these are at best pressure tactics no Nation like US wants to go back to stone age. At the same time War could extend South Americans could provide bases to China and Russia than US would not be able to provide its fleets service to Japan.

 

[Aepsilons]

You penned it down all wrong now you are considering Chines navy to tug boat Vietnamese navy. Do you have blue prints of Chinese Naval strategies I doubt, that is why China developing and developing to solve issues deploy more equipment you seem to think China has stopped like development and is just living on whatever they have. US will never engage China for Japan the WMD Chinese poses would end War no more US no more Japan no more China let snot think in foolish ways both are largest world trade partners US will never sacrifice themselves for Japan not going to happen these are at best pressure tactics no Nation like US wants to go back to stone age. At the same time War could extend South Americans could provide bases to China and Russia than US would not be able to provide its fleets service to Japan.

Hi @Luftwaffe ,

In this scenario , it would be a conventional conflict in all tense and purposes. China does not have First-Strike Initiative, and thus it will not strike unless the United States launches the first salvo of nuclear strikes, which will not happen.

Size alone does not dictate the calculus of a war, in fact, there have been examples of a much larger military force being defeated by a much smaller , able force that has utilized speed to its advantage. I would take an example of The Battle of Tsushima Straits in 1905, the Battle of Midway in 1942, The Battle of Port Arthur in 1905, all examples of a much larger force being taken by surprise by a smaller , yet readily prepared force.

Please let me infer that I am in no way saying that the PLAN should not be respected, nay, it is a powerful force. They are modernizing as we speak. I will reiterate that the weakness lies on the shear size of China's territorial control, and the dispersement of its armed forces, which makes the mobilization of said forces and units rather cumbersome.

Thank you for sharing your input, and yes, there are definitely may key areas that the PLAN has to its arsenal, which is their large naval air group. But this Maritime air group is largely dispersed to cover its north, and eastern corridor, then many units are set to address SCS corridor.


Thank you.

Lets not bring in US the Topic is CN vs Japanese Navy and lets also consider China is spending 3 times more than Japan on Advanced Navy Development. It is a fairly large Navy and the Air Wing with 400+ Aircraft is extremely potent compared to Japanese Naval Air Arm.

It cannot be divorced, i will say, because the United States' Foreign Policy per the United States Pacific Command -- and its 7th Fleet is affixed on the security of its greatest ally in Asia-- Japan. In fact, our Treaty stipulates that an attack on military units of the Japan Self Defense Force, will be met with United States Armed Forces' intervention.

In fact, through the some 7 decades now, JMSDF and the US Navy's 7th Fleet, 5th Fleet and 6th Fleet have cooperated in a plethora of interoperability exercises ranging from maritime interdiction, recapture exercises, to Fleet Screen exercises.

None of us wants a conflict, however, this does not mean that there are resources readily available to commit in case the worse case scenario happens.

 

[xunzi]

It cannot be divorced, i will say, because the United States' Foreign Policy per the United States Pacific Command -- and its 7th Fleet is affixed on the security of its greatest ally in Asia-- Japan. In fact, our Treaty stipulates that an attack on military units of the Japan Self Defense Force, will be met with United States Armed Forces' intervention.

In fact, through the some 7 decades now, JMSDF and the US Navy's 7th Fleet, 5th Fleet and 6th Fleet have cooperated in a plethora of interoperability exercises ranging from maritime interdiction, recapture exercises, to Fleet Screen exercises.

None of us wants a conflict, however, this does not mean that there are resources readily available to commit in case the worse case scenario happens.

My friend, I hate to say this to you but the treaty is just a "piece of paper". Will American really risk nuclear Armageddon over Japan? ehhh That is tough to say. I let an American answer that. Truthfully, you don't share any cultural link to American, nor genetic. The only country I believe the US will risk nuclear Armageddon over is Britain. That is the SINGLE country that I am very confident American will fight their life over. They have a special relationship and bond dating back to the independent day.

As far us PLAN vs JDF Navy, let be honest here.. Within 10 years, you aren't even worth for us to compete against. You are not a worthy opponent without American involvement and there is a reason I say that and I hope you can address our concern. If the US will not involved, how do you plan to address this.

1. our electronic warfare. can your country withstand million of our professional hacker who are consistently rank the best in the world?
2. our anti-satellite to knock out all your communication system.
3. our massive network of submarine infrastructure that we will build to monitor every submarine in the future within our vicinity. Let not forget, we will have 5 to 1 advantage in submarine in the near future when more modern submarine is deploy to the PLAN. Our submarine force is also more dynamic as we have variety of SSN, conventionally-powered attack, nuclear SSBN, AIP, etc..
4. our massive inventory of drones
5. DF-21D. To tell you the truth, all your helicopter carrier is a sitting duck as far as I'm concern.
6. massive arsenal of missiles which will make all our modern vessel a sitting duck. The only real threat is your submarine and this is where our Anti-Submarine warfare is being addressed with unmanned submarine and building a network of ocean floor acoustic arrays system to monitor anything hidden beneath our feet.
7. last but not least and this will devastated you but we have no intention of going this route to defeat you because it is not necessary. Mushroom cloud!

LOL

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The weakness you see, is the fact that China's naval size is rather low.

You're right. The reason is because we don't spend much on defence, only 5% of our annual Government budget (and around 1.5% of GDP), less than pretty much every other major nation. And we are starting from a disadvantage too.

This is a part of Deng Xiaoping's strategy, "韜光養晦" (to conceal one's strengths and bide one's time).

But since our GDP is getting much larger, even that small percentage is a large amount of money, so we are aiming to catch up with the more advanced navies.

By 2025 we will be in a much better position, with boosted defence spending, and mature platforms to spend the money on. That's when we'll start pumping out much larger numbers of advanced warships. But for that, we need to concentrate on economy first.