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China’s Deceptively Weak (and Dangerous) Military

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prove me wrong :)

The burden of proof lies with who declares not who denies....otherwise; whenever no one's looking you grow a pink monkey's tail.

I always have said this. Chinese army is a paper tiger that is why they are trying to show off and even fail at showing off. Real military powers don't have the need to show off. They believe in their own strengths. Weaker wannabe countries have the need to look stronger than they really are. This counted also for Iraqi army. We just need to wait for an event that will expose the farse.

On the contrary, China does not disclose enough. You hear about their projects years after they'd been inducted. Its only recently that news has started come out on some of their projects after many calls by the US for some transparency.
 
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PLA may be still not strong enough to take US power but next to nobody in Asia. Look at these losers with jealousy or hatred to China in the forum: some indians, some viets and some uyghur sympathetic turks...

This article or the thread got no substance...
 
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India has to be the most hyped up military. Lacking any genuine domestic military/industrial infrastructure and having to rely almost totally on foreign suppliers for hardware and parts, they essentially have a one-time-use military, in the event of a war. India cannot replenish losses of critical equipment during war, and even struggling to have adequate basic ammunition stockpiles, during peacetime. India is all about acquiring big showpieces but neglecting the small and essential things.

India need to stop bragging about things they have yet to do and belittling China's military efforts for doing things what India should be doing. Only fools would take China lightly as a military power now.
 
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India has to be the most hyped up military. Lacking any genuine domestic military/industrial infrastructure and having to rely almost totally on foreign suppliers for hardware and parts, they essentially have a one-time-use military, in the event of a war. India cannot replenish losses of critical equipment during war, and even struggling to have adequate basic ammunition stockpiles, during peacetime. India is all about acquiring big showpieces but neglecting the small and essential things.

India need to stop bragging about things they have yet to do and belittling China's military efforts for doing things what India should be doing. Only fools would take China lightly as a military power now.

completely agreed.

If North Korea were next to India geographically, it would beat india in an all out war for sure.

One of the main reasons for that is NK is capable of making most of its own gears, whereas India almost none.

For the same reason, If Iran were next to India geographically, it would beat India with 1 hand in an all out war.

Or an ICBM, SLBM, SSBN, Space vehicles, etc, etc, etc. all of which India makes. It's not a matter of incompetence in producing ammunition, its a matter of poor foresight and planning. At on point India exported some rounds to Israel and Thailand.

:rofl: diluted Indians still "think" that " ICBM, SLBM, SSBN, Space vehicles, etc, etc, etc. all of which India makes."
 
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India strong! Much stronger than China! So strong it can't even make tank ammunition and is extorted by Russia...once again. India won in 1962! India Shining supadupapowa! :rofl:

India Gives In to Russia's Terms For High-Priced Tank Ammunition

NEW DELHI — The Indian Defence Ministry — faced with a shortage of ammunition for its Russian-made T-90 tanks, coupled with an inability to produce ammunition at home — has no choice but to give in to Russian terms and purchase marked-up ammo from Moscow, an MoD source said.

The MoD reluctantly agreed to the deal last month, despite the fact that Russia hiked the price by 20 percent and refused to accept offset obligations.

Russia will receive a $197 million contract for the fin-stabilized armor-piercing discarding sabot. In 2011, the asking price for the same order was $163 million.

Besides jacking up the price, the Russians also refused to transfer technology for making the rounds to the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), a demand India has been making for the past five years, the MoD source added. A diplomat from the Russian Embassy merely said the sale of T-90 ammunition was on agreed-upon terms, and refused to give details.

India was forced to agree to the terms because OFB’s efforts at making the ammunition failed, an Indian Army official said.

“India bought T-90 tanks from Russia without transfer of technology for ammunition, which has resulted in perpetual shortages for the ammunition,” the official said.

“There were reportedly multiple problems in procurement of T-90 tank ammunition,” said Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst. “The ammunition produced in India was not compatible with the fire-control system of the tanks, thus these have to be modified. The Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO] has not been able to resolve the problem, hence there is a challenge. Meanwhile, there was apparently no fallback plan, thus orders had to be made to the single supplier, which hiked the prices thus compounding the problems.”

A DRDO official said technology for the ammunition actually has been developed and transferred to OFB.

The Indian Army official, however, said the ammunition developed by DRDO is only for the T-72 tanks. The ammunition failed when it was used in the T-90 tanks.

“The OFB has failed to produce ammunition for T-90 tanks because it is far more sophisticated than ammunition for Russian made T-72 tanks,” Bhonsle said. “Because in the case of T-90 ammunition, there are intricate linkages with the fire-control computer.”

“The way out of the ammunition crisis is the need to tie up with overseas original equipment manufactures [OEMs],” said defense analyst Nitin Mehta. The rise in demand for T-90 ammunition as the fleet strength increases will be an attraction for OEMs to come forward to partner with Indian companies in producing the required ammunition, Mehta said.

The Indian Army operates more than 500 T-90 tanks, and plans to increase the strength to more than 1,300 by 2020 through license-production at Indian facilities.

An executive at a domestic private company said OFB has a monopoly on ammunition.

“The private companies [focus on] propellant and explosives, and not in the filling of the shell or rocket motor,” the executive said.
There you earned your 50 cents....job well done!...
 
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China’s Deceptively Weak (and Dangerous) Military
In many ways, the PLA is weaker than it looks – and more dangerous.


In April 2003, the Chinese Navy decided to put a large group of its best submarine talent on the same boat as part of an experiment to synergize its naval elite. The result? Within hours of leaving port, the Type 035 Ming III class submarine sank with all hands lost. Never having fully recovered from this maritime disaster, the People’s Republic of China (PRC) is still the only permanent member of the United Nations Security Councilnever to have conducted an operational patrol with a nuclear missile submarine.

China is also the only member of the UN’s “Big Five” never to have built and operated an aircraft carrier. While it launched a refurbished Ukrainian built carrier amidst much fanfare in September 2012 – then-President Hu Jintao and all the top brass showed upsoon afterward the big ship had to return to the docks for extensive overhauls because of suspected engine failure; not the most auspicious of starts for China’s fledgling “blue water” navy, and not the least example of a modernizing military that has yet to master last century’s technology.

Indeed, today the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) still conducts long-distance maneuver training at speeds measured by how fast the next available cargo train can transport its tanks and guns forward. And if mobilizing and moving armies around on railway tracks sounds a bit antiquated in an era of global airlift, it should – that was how it was done in the First World War.

Not to be outdone by the conventional army, China’s powerful strategic rocket troops, the Second Artillery Force, still uses cavalry units to patrol its sprawling missile bases deep within China’s vast interior. Why? Because it doesn’t have any helicopters. Equally scarce in China are modern fixed-wing military aircraft. So the Air Force continues to use a 1950s Soviet designed airframe, the Tupolev Tu-16, as a bomber (its original intended mission), a battlefield reconnaissance aircraft, an electronic warfare aircraft, a target spotting aircraft, and an aerial refueling tanker. Likewise, the PLA uses the Soviet designed Antonov An-12 military cargo aircraft for ELINT (electronic intelligence) missions, ASW (anti-submarine warfare) missions, geological survey missions, and airborne early warning missions. It also has an An-12 variant specially modified for transporting livestock, allowing sheep and goats access to remote seasonal pastures.

But if China’s lack of decent hardware is somewhat surprising given all the hype surrounding Beijing’s massive military modernization program, the state of “software” (military training and readiness) is truly astounding. At one military exercise in the summer of 2012, a strategic PLA unit, stressed out by the hard work of handling warheads in an underground bunker complex, actually had to take time out of a 15-day wartime simulation for movie nights and karaoke parties. In fact, by day nine of the exercise, a “cultural performance troupe” (common PLA euphemism for song-and-dance girls) had to be brought into the otherwise sealed facility to entertain the homesick soldiers.

Apparently becoming suspicious that men might not have the emotional fortitude to hack it in high-pressure situations, an experimental all-female unit was then brought in for the 2013 iteration of the war games, held in May, for an abbreviated 72-hour trial run. Unfortunately for the PLA, the results were even worse. By the end of the second day of the exercise, the hardened tunnel facility’s psychological counseling office was overrun with patients, many reportedly too upset to eat and one even suffering with severe nausea because of the unpleasant conditions.

While recent years have witnessed a tremendous Chinese propaganda effort aimed at convincing the world that the PRC is a serious military player that is owed respect, outsiders often forget that China does not even have a professional military. The PLA, unlike the armed forces of the United States, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and other regional heavyweights, is by definition not a professional fighting force. Rather, it is a “party army,” the armed wing of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Indeed, all career officers in the PLA are members of the CCP and all units at the company level and above have political officers assigned to enforce party control. Likewise, all important decisions in the PLA are made by Communist Party committees that are dominated by political officers, not by operators. This system ensures that the interests of the party’s civilian and military leaders are merged, and for this reason new Chinese soldiers entering into the PLA swear their allegiance to the CCP, not to the PRC constitution or the people of China.

This may be one reason why China’s marines (or “naval infantry” in PLA parlance) and other amphibious warfare units train by landing on big white sandy beaches that look nothing like the west coast of Taiwan (or for that matter anyplace else they could conceivably be sent in the East China Sea or South China Sea). It could also be why PLA Air Force pilots still typically get less than ten hours of flight time a month (well below regional standards), and only in 2012 began to have the ability to submit their own flight plans (previously, overbearing staff officers assigned pilots their flight plans and would not even allow them to taxi and take-off on the runways by themselves).

Intense and realistic training is dangerous business, and the American maxim that the more you bleed during training the less you bleed during combat doesn’t translate well in a Leninist military system. Just the opposite.China’s military is intentionally organized to bureaucratically enforce risk-averse behavior, because an army that spends too much time training is an army that is not engaging in enough political indoctrination. Beijing’s worst nightmare is that the PLA could one day forget that its number one mission is protecting the Communist Party’s civilian leaders against all its enemies – especially when the CCP’s “enemies” are domestic student or religious groups campaigning for democratic rights, as happened in 1989 and 1999, respectively.

For that reason, the PLA has to engage in constant “political work” at the expense of training for combat. This means that 30 to 40 percent of an officer’s career (or roughly 15 hours per 40-hour work week) is wasted studying CCP propaganda, singing patriotic songs, and conducting small group discussions on Marxist-Leninist theory. And when PLA officers do train, it is almost always a cautious affair that rarely involves risky (i.e., realistic) training scenarios.

Abraham Lincoln once observed that if he had six hours to chop down a tree he would spend the first four hours sharpening his axe. Clearly the PLA is not sharpening its proverbial axe. Nor can it. Rather, it has opted to invest in a bigger axe, albeit one that is still dull. Ironically, this undermines Beijing’s own aspirations for building a truly powerful 21st century military.

Yet none of this should be comforting to China’s potential military adversaries. It is precisely China’s military weakness that makes it so dangerous. Take the PLA’s lack of combat experience, for example. A few minor border scraps aside, the PLA hasn’t seen real combat since the Korean War. This appears to be a major factor leading it to act so brazenly in the East and South China Seas. Indeed, China’s navy now appears to be itching for a fight anywhere it can find one. Experienced combat veterans almost never act this way. Indeed, history shows that military commanders that have gone to war are significantly less hawkish than their inexperienced counterparts. Lacking the somber wisdom that comes from combat experience, today’s PLA is all hawk and no dove.

The Chinese military is dangerous in another way as well. Recognizing that it will never be able to compete with the U.S. and its allies using traditional methods of war fighting, the PLA has turned to unconventional “asymmetric” first-strike weapons and capabilities to make up for its lack of conventional firepower, professionalism and experience. These weapons include more than 1,600 offensive ballistic and cruise missiles, whose very nature is so strategically destabilizing that the U.S. and Russia decided to outlaw them with the INF Treaty some 25 years ago.

In concert with its strategic missile forces, China has also developed a broad array of space weapons designed to destroy satellites used to verify arms control treaties, provide military communications, and warn of enemy attacks. China has also built the world’s largest army of cyber warriors, and the planet’s second largest fleet of drones, to exploit areas where the U.S. and its allies are under-defended. All of these capabilities make it more likely that China could one day be tempted to start a war, and none come with any built in escalation control.

Yet while there is ample and growing evidence to suggest China could, through malice or mistake, start a devastating war in the Pacific, it is highly improbable that the PLA’s strategy could actually win a war. Take a Taiwan invasion scenario, which is the PLA’s top operational planning priority. While much hand-wringing has been done in recent years about the shifting military balance in the Taiwan Strait, so far no one has been able to explain how any invading PLA force would be able to cross over 100 nautical miles of exceedingly rough water and successfully land on the world’s most inhospitable beaches, let alone capture the capital and pacify the rest of the rugged island.

The PLA simply does not have enough transport ships to make the crossing, and those it does have are remarkably vulnerable to Taiwanese anti-ship cruise missiles, guided rockets, smart cluster munitions, mobile artillery and advanced sea mines – not to mention its elite corps of American-trained fighter and helicopter pilots. Even if some lucky PLA units could survive the trip (not at all a safe assumption), they would be rapidly overwhelmed by a small but professional Taiwan military that has been thinking about and preparing for this fight for decades.

Going forward it will be important for the U.S. and its allies to recognize that China’s military is in many ways much weaker than it looks. However, it is also growing more capable of inflicting destruction on its enemies through the use of first-strike weapons. To mitigate the destabilizing effects of the PLA’s strategy, the U.S. and its allies should try harder to maintain their current (if eroding) leads in military hardware. But more importantly, they must continue investing in the training that makes them true professionals. While manpower numbers are likely to come down in the years ahead due to defense budget cuts, regional democracies will have less to fear from China’s weak but dangerous military if their axes stay sharp.

Ian Easton is a research fellow at the Project 2049 Institute in Arlington, VA. He was also a recent visiting fellow at the Japan Institute of International Affairs in Tokyo. Previously, he was a China analyst at the Center for Naval Analyses.


Levina

you suggesting Indian army should pinch PLA's behind?
 
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Levina

you suggesting Indian army should pinch PLA's behind?
Nooo I never suggested any thing from behind.
This article has no line which says that PLA should be provoked.
It merely ponits out at the weaknesses of PLA and that we need not fear the roaring panda.
And.... India doesnt have a history of provoking.
what is to prove here? i am agreeing with what you said, that it is more of how you wanted it to be as you said :)
You're right!!
I had a strong intuition that everything about China was a potemkin village and this article proves me right.
So yeah...it is how I wanted it to be. :)
 
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It's not about @levina at all. Read this. It clearly shows that the Chinese Forces need a complete overhaul. All doesn't seem right.

From South China Morning Post
23 Oct 2014


President Xi Jinping has called for the country's military to make technical and strategic "innovations" and to narrow the gap with other powers as new trends in warfare emerge.

Xi issued the call during a Politburo study session on Friday on how to adapt to changes in warfare, according to state media. The comments also come as China seeks to defend expansion of its strategic interests in disputed waters in the East and South China seas.

Xi said the People's Liberation Army must "strive to establish a new military doctrine, institutions, equipment systems, strategies and tactics and management modes" for information warfare that had become central to modern combat.

He added that operational thinking, combat forces and military management must be overhauled to reshape the military system.

In addition to the focus on innovation, Xi also highlighted three principles: the party should formulate an overall strategy to beef up its military strength; develop a new mindset for the different military wings to unite under a coherent strategy; and find ways to identify problems in the forces.

Xi said: "Faced with the severe challenges to our national security and stability and the deep-seated contradictions and problems with reform, it is even more pressing that we greatly liberate our ideas and concepts, have the courage to change our fixed mindsets of mechanised warfare and establish the ideological concept of information warfare."

Yue Gang, a military commentator and retired PLA colonel, said Xi's comments showed that he realised how much China trailed some developed countries in terms of modern warfare.

"It is clear that our country has developed a long way economically, but its military hasn't kept up," Yue said.

"He understands that to have a competitive army nowadays, merely having all the cutting-edge hardware - which we have been spending more money on - will not be enough. Our entire thinking needs to catch up with the rest of the world."

Xi Jinping urges China's military to create 'information warfare' strategy | South China Morning Post

So, there it is. There is a dire need for Chinese Forces to get more professional. A lot needs to be done to reach minimum levels of combat efficiency.
A dragon is of no use to man or beast without its fire!

ALL can never be right but it also is not so wrong as being portrayed in the article posted, you can dig up and will find this out for yourself! :)
Moreover, why are all of you onto me?? i just agreed with what was being said!! that it surely is more of what you wanted it to be :) Simple!

Nooo I never suggested any thing from behind.
This article has no line which says that PLA should be provoked.
It merely ponits out at the weaknesses of PLA and that we need not fear the roaring panda.
And.... India doesnt have a history of provoking.

You're right!!
I had a strong intuition that everything about China was a potemkin village and this article proves me right.
So yeah...it is how I wanted it to be. :)
Congratulations :)
 
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Hi,

The article that Levina has posted is very true. China has issues if it has to use a boat for invasion. But it won't have any problems with ground strikes.

The Zhuhai air show will tell us about the status of the Chinese fighter aircraft engines and what is coming.

China is facing some serious probems that have popped up in the last one year and bigger problems that have surfaced with Mr. Modi winning the elections.
 
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Nooo I never suggested any thing from behind.
This article has no line which says that PLA should be provoked.
It merely ponits out at the weaknesses of PLA and that we need not fear the roaring panda.
....

By over-minimizing your enemy means preparing for provocation in military history.


N...
And.... India doesnt have a history of provoking.

Oh yes Levina Ji

Oh yes.

India provoked China in 1962.
 
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