CHINA TO LEASE TYPE 092 SUBMARINE TO PAKISTAN

[HongWu]

Here is China's new SSK. The most advanced in the world.

http://cnair.top81.cn/sub/039B1.jpg

 

[applesauce]

I think your History is very week so pls dont comment on any one unless u know some thing............ India Never attacked any one till now until and unless it was attacked war 1965 1999(kargil war) all were started by Pakistan and we defended ourselves same as the 1961 indo-china war
Unlike China or Pakistan who spend 5% of GDP india only uses 2.5% of the GDP on military

stop pulling numbers out of your south end
china spends less than india as a percentage of gdp on the military of course having 5x the economy of india, in absolute terms it will be larger

---------- Post added at 04:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

Here is China's new SSK. The most advanced in the world.

http://cnair.top81.cn/sub/039B1.jpg

very good yes but best? i have my doubts

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

stop pulling numbers out of your south end
china spends less than india as a percentage of gdp on the military of course having 5x the economy of india, in absolute terms it will be larger

However,it is difficult to estimate China's defence expenditure ,because it mostly indegenised and also most of the raw materials are available in China itself.

 

[ares]

China is ready to build up Pakistan Navy with Yuan-class SSK and nuclear attack submarines!!!

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

The Yuan-class is a world-class SSK as good or better than anything India can buy. With China building them, it would be easy for Pakistan to maintain parity or even superiority over India in SSK.

I don't think China should sell the old Type 091 Han-class SSN. China should sell Pakistan the newer Type 093 Shang-class SSN. After all, China will be deploying Type 095 SSN in a year or two I think. The Type 093 is at least as good as the "indigenous SSN" that Russia is building for India. INS Arihant will not be operational for at least 5 years.

Here is what Pakistani think of your world class SSKs, that you want them to buy

In Pursuit of Type-214

With new developments regarding the purchase of new attack submarines for Pakistan Navy, Brasstacks analyses in depth the repercussions of recent news to buy Chinese submarines once again dumping the much needed German Type 214 submarines.

There are reports that the government is eyeing acquisition of Chinese smaller submarines, which once again tantamount to risking the national defense, especially keeping in view the Indian ambitions to create naval hegemony in the Indian Ocean by outclassing Pakistani and Chinese navies.

This paper is a continuation of our earlier analysis of the same matter discussed in last month’s issue of Brasstacks; wherein we have explored the pros and cons of choosing French Submarines ignoring the German bid. In this paper we give you a more meticulous rationale regarding why Pakistan Navy requires German submarine Type 214 instead of the Chinese or French.

Keeping in view Pakistan’s maritime threat perceptions vis-à-vis existing deficiency in the number of submarine platforms, funds were allocated in Armed Forces Development Programme (AFDP-2019) for early purchase of new submarines to counter the ever growing Indian Navy threat in Pakistan’s Area of Interest. Process of acquisition was thus accordingly initiated in 2004, when a Naval Service Requirement (NSR) based on Pakistan Navy’s threat perception and peculiar operating environment was prepared and subsequently approved at Naval Headquarters. German Type 214 (commonly known as U-214) submarine was finally selected after a painstaking and detailed technical evaluation process involving all tiers of the Navy and approval acquired at highest forums. Moreover, concurrence from top Government hierarchy was also obtained under the personal guidance of then Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Tahir NI(M).

Type 214 submarine is the most modern, quieter, state of the art, air independent propulsion system (proven fuel cell technology) fitted platform; capable of undertaking full spectrum of offensive missions in shallow as well as in deeper waters. This class of submarine guarantees, accomplishment of all present and future missions assigned to Pakistan Navy Submarine Force with full effectiveness and lethality. Type 214 submarine with its present day capabilities can also be very effectively pitched against the Indian Akula II and Arihant (ATV) nuclear submarines. As of today, 22 Type 214 submarines (02 Portugal, 04 Greece, 10 South Korea, 06 Turkey) have been contracted. The above numbers also invalidate the baseless allegations levied against its technical aspects, especially by the Hellenic Navy, which is presently seeking delivery of her 2nd Type 214 submarine from the German Yard. Interestingly, this submarine incorporates similar equipment (weapon & sensors) which are also installed on other German origin submarines operating worldwide e.g. Type 212A, Type 209s etc. Therefore, such a large family with common range of equipment is likely to provide sustained post induction spares supportability as well, an operational flexibility that Pakistan Navy lacked in Agosta90B deal.


The looming threats and operational compulsions necessitate Pakistan Navy to acquire this submarine as soon as possible. Reconsidering other options now, like smaller submarines or Chinese platforms, when already a substantial time has been spent on thorough evaluation of submarines earlier, would result only in distraction from the main cause. A grim situation, ending up yet again, in opting for “a Platform not of Navy’s choice“, and with many serious implications that would be faced in times to come. Lessons, if learnt from earlier project, might affect the decision makers this time. The Chinese considerably lack in conventional submarine technology as compared to their western counterparts. The country itself maintains a fleet of Russian origin Kilo class submarines. Hence, Chinese built platforms cannot guarantee the quality and capability that Pakistan Navy is looking for.


India on the other hand is following an ambitious and a progressive submarine acquisition programme. India has planned to acquire 24 conventional submarines, 02 x AKULA II nuclear submarines from Russia by the year 2010, indigenous nuclear submarine platform ATV ARIHANT has already been launched (based on Akula I design). 1st batch of French made 06 x Scorpene submarines will be delivered to Indian Navy by 2016.

In addition, request for 2nd batch of six more conventional submarines has also been floated by India and HDW (German yard) is also one of the contenders. Presently, the HDW has not shown any active interest for the Indian request but if Pakistan Navy’s project is not materialized, possibility of offering Type 214 submarines to India by Germany may be likely. Moreover, HDW has also declined (for the time being) Indian Navy’s request for supply of plug-in Fuel Cell (AIP system) for Scorpene submarines, which may also get materialized in the aforesaid case. It is noteworthy to reveal that Indian Navy is also acquiring the same Heavy Weight Torpedo for their Scorpene submarines, which have successfully been inducted onboard Pakistan Navy submarines as well. This simply reflects the superior & proven quality of German weapons and systems.

Given the number advantage and nuclear submarine technology available with Indian Navy, the only available option for Pakistan Navy is to maintain the qualitative conventional submarine edge over its arch rival that it had enjoyed so far. However, Pakistan Navy would find it difficult to deter the growing Indian Navy’s threat from its modern surface, air and sub-surface platforms, if Type 214 submarine is not acquired expeditiously. Time is of critical essence and any inauspicious decision would slip the submarine acquisition programme far beyond in schedule and below the required standards that might be impossible to cope up with.

Presently, official policy of German government is fairly supportive with respect to Pakistan’s defense needs and has already reiterated its assurance for supply of these submarines to Pakistan despite consistent heinous Indian propaganda and their hue & cry even in the German parliament. With Angela Merkel nominated as the German chancellor for the second time; all is set for finalizing the deal at the earliest. A strategic partnership with a German construction yard (HDW) at this time juncture would contribute a lot towards any of our future programme in terms of construction expertise, complex processes, project handling, spares supportability and most importantly the transfer of design capability. Therefore, going for German submarines will have huge benefits for Pakistan Navy in capability building as well as top of the line modern conventional submarines in her inventory.

But there exists a mysterious silence despite the fact that time, tide and technology favour us. It appears that a deliberate move is underway from the corrupt and unpatriotic echelons to prevent Pakistan Navy from achieving its well deserved destiny. French kick backs and commissions would be difficult to resist but it has to be realized and understood that the Submarine Force serves as the backbone of Pakistan Navy; and is the most potent and offensive arm that is well recognized and respected in the region. This prestigious silent service has always proven its mettle in all wars & conflicts. The known ferocity of our submarines has always kept Indians away from any kind of sea aggression. It is up to the Pakistan Navy to take a stand this time, whether to uphold and preserve the National honor or to compromise the National Security needs, just by remaining aloof and letting go of such a valuable window of opportunity. Pakistan cannot afford this fatal mistake.

By Farzana Shah

 

[below_freezing]

Here is what Pakistani think of your world class SSKs, that you want them to buy

Not all Pakistanis are smart. Just look at the displacement differences of the subs, Yuan class is 4000 ton displacement vs. a mere 1500 for the 214, higher displacement = more weapons, more sensors, more fuel, more food, longer endurance. This pakistani author obviously confuses "owning Kilos" with "Kilos are best in their navy".

 

[ares]

Not all Pakistanis are smart.

Well the author is right here on this forum goes by the name JANA ..you can tell that to her face..

Just look at the displacement differences of the subs, Yuan class is 4000 ton displacement vs. a mere 1500 for the 214, higher displacement = more weapons, more sensors, more fuel, more food, longer endurance. This pakistani author obviously confuses "owning Kilos" with "Kilos are best in their navy".

Yes though I agree with your higher endurance point ..but higher endurance does not automatically mean "better submarine".

Stealth, Accoustic signature,AIP, type of passive/active sensors employed..type of man/machine interface, type of steel used in construction/type of weapons also matter a lot...IS Yuan class better than U-214 in all those fields??

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Not all Pakistanis are smart. Just look at the displacement differences of the subs, Yuan class is 4000 ton displacement vs. a mere 1500 for the 214, higher displacement = more weapons, more sensors, more fuel, more food, longer endurance. This pakistani author obviously confuses "owning Kilos" with "Kilos are best in their navy".

You seem to believe that where warships/submarines are concerned; things are better by the kilo! (pun intended).
More Displacement may translate into more volume/space, but does more more weapons, more sensors automatically mean better weapons, better sensors ?
And you like to think that- Not all Pakistanis are smart. (in your own words)

 

[Akasa]

Your entire thread is a bunch of assumptions with no, concrete evidence of either the one or both the events are happening or likely to happen in near future .

Please could you substantiate your claims with some solid proof.

Here's the link: http://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/...301c62f015/S-2--Options-for-the-Pakistan-Navy

The link doesn't work anymore for an unknown reason, so boo-hoo all you want, but that's not going to change what Pakistan decides to do.

And you really think that the Pakistan government will give every civilian a report on their nuclear procurements?

 

[unicorn148]

But the French only offered it to India. You don't have it yet. I admit, Pakistan doesn't have the Yuan submarine yet either. But Chinese has produced indigenous Yuan submarine since 2004. Now China is making a new improved SSK even better than the Yuan.


That is just a plan. It will be a decade or more before it India actually operates the U214 even if it buys it. But China's new improved SSK is just as advanced or even more advanced than U214. China's new improved SSK is as advanced as Japan's Shoryu class submarines.


Really? Sea trials? But there are never any photos. Could this be the biggest joke ever?

i dont know why you came to the thread before typing some thing do some homework ...........plsss
India has already accepted the France offer and deal was finalsised to fit AIP in all the six subs
the latest SSK you are talking can be commented after it will launched so before that its not worth of commenting .for to say even India is also designing its next gen ssk but we dont like to comment until it will be released for trails and the Pic you shown is not the latest ssk but its a yaun class sub..........
and about buying 6 new subs the tender is already ready and it will be finalised by 1-2 years so dont worry they will be coming early .........
and about arihant there were pics and i know better than you because it undergoing trails in my own city.................

 

[below_freezing]

Well the author is right here on this forum goes by the name JANA ..you can tell that to her face..



Yes though I agree with your higher endurance point ..but higher endurance does not automatically mean "better submarine".

Stealth, Accoustic signature,AIP, type of passive/active sensors employed..type of man/machine interface, type of steel used in construction/type of weapons also matter a lot...IS Yuan class better than U-214 in all those fields??

the limiting factor of conventional subs is endurance, period. AIP exists on the Yuan but is also nearly useless in combat (on all subs, not just the Yuan) because the fuel cells provide only enough electricity for the sub to crawl at 2 km/hr, completely worthless except for going back to base or setting up a position for waiting. This is a limitation of current fuel cell technology. All conventional subs are quiet due to electric drive and no moving parts except propeller during movement; Kilo (and the Yuan based on the Kilo) is one of the quietest subs in the world and the Kilo used revolutionary for its era sonar absorbant tiles; these have even been upgraded in the Yuan with internal shock absorbers.

Type 041 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[applesauce]

However,it is difficult to estimate China's defence expenditure ,because it mostly indegenised and also most of the raw materials are available in China itself.

well even RAND estimates spending at most between 2.3-2.8 percent which is again nowhere NEAR 5%, Even the DoD, which gives one of the higher estimate, says its no greater than 3% at most(they generally give about double what officially china says). Thus china using RAND's estimate spends roughly the same percentage as india, officially its something like 1.4 % though

 

[MickyMouse]

now Pakistan's defense means China's defense. sub is no longer an issue.

So how many regiments/batallions/divisions of PLA are fighting in Pakistan against the Balochis?
Are they not a major security problem for you today?

Your comment makes it sound like China - Pakistan is something like US - Japan.

 

[MickyMouse]

China would likely help Pakistan to convert their landbased ballistic missiles into seabased.

I still believe that Type 094-I is Type 092G, and this would also likely be the blueprint for PN's future SSBN.

Isn't India's Navy going to have 6 SSBNs at least in the future? Why is a big deal for PN having 1-2 SSBNs?

Which would be a violation of the MTCR.
Do you have any idea the stupendous effort needed to research, build and maintain a nuclear submarine . . . forget SSGNs and SSBNs. Pakistan does not have the ability to do this, your defence budget would have to be a high multiple of your current one to do this, which would bring apart your economy.

 

[monitor]

Which would be a violation of the MTCR.
Do you have any idea the stupendous effort needed to research, build and maintain a nuclear submarine . . . forget SSGNs and SSBNs. Pakistan does not have the ability to do this, your defence budget would have to be a high multiple of your current one to do this, which would bring apart your economy.

If they do that covertly then it will not be a big problem,china is a super power nobody will mess with it .
budget is the main problem for pakistan but gradually they will raise their budget .

 

[MickyMouse]

China is ready to build up Pakistan Navy with Yuan-class SSK and nuclear attack submarines!!!

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

The Yuan-class is a world-class SSK as good or better than anything India can buy. With China building them, it would be easy for Pakistan to maintain parity or even superiority over India in SSK.

I don't think China should sell the old Type 091 Han-class SSN. China should sell Pakistan the newer Type 093 Shang-class SSN. After all, China will be deploying Type 095 SSN in a year or two I think. The Type 093 is at least as good as the "indigenous SSN" that Russia is building for India. INS Arihant will not be operational for at least 5 years.

This sale is really no big deal. 4 conventional submarines are not a game changer and an SSN armed with 220km conventional missile is also not one.
The first of these submarines is easily over 1/2 a decade away, and when they come in PN will still have < 10, so no biggie for IN.
As time goes by the difference between the armed forces will keep on going into India's favour.

Btw in your article, a statement saying that Pakistan required Saudi help to purchase the AWACS . . . so where is money to operate a nuclear submarine going to come from?
It will also take a cool decade to train people and build facilities to operate nuclear submarines. It is not the same as building missiles and civilian nuclear tech. And China do not want a nuclear explosion in Gawadar do they

And at your comments on Arihant. Russians building it for us Sources please?
And if they were really "building" it, it would have been operational a long time ago, the same way Pakistan's "indigenous" missiles and nuclear bombs were built up so fast . . .
FYI, it will be operational in 2011/12.