China to get S-400 from russia in 2017

[SQ8]

The American GPS receivers are indeed only receivers. But the flaw in your thinking here is that the American way is the ONLY way. We never said it is.

You are telling me there is a handshake for GPS?
The transmitter knows there is a receiver??

 

[gambit]

You are telling me there is a handshake for GPS?
The transmitter knows there is a receiver??

Not for the American GPS. But apparently not too many people, including the Chinese, know the truth about the Beidou system, so here goes...

The Beidou as a satellite assisted navigation system with its 'Big Brother' aspect have been known for a long time but the Chinese government tries very hard to suppress that fact.

For the Beidou system, each satellite is only a relay of queries and responses...

http://events.eoportal.org/presentations/10001572/10001573.html

BeiDou-1 requires two-way transmissions between the user and the central control station via the satellite. Firstly, the central control station sends inquiry signals to the users via two satellites. When the user terminal received the signal from one satellite, it sends responding signal back to both satellites. The central station receives the responding signals sent by the user from two satellites, and calculates the user’s 2D position based on the time difference between the two signals. This position is then compared with the digital territorial map stored in the database to get the 3D position data, which is then sent back to the user via satellites using encrypted communications

For Beidou 1, it is the ground controller that tells the receiver/requester its location. Not that the receiver calculates its own positions from triangulation of detected satellites.

The new system under development will be a constellation of 35 satellites, which include 5 geostationary orbit (GEO) satellites, 3 IGSO (Inclined Geosynchronous Orbit), and 27 MEO (Medium Earth Orbit) satellites, that will offer complete coverage of the globe. The BeiDou-2 system will allow a ground receiver to calculate its position by measuring the distance between itself and three or more satellites in view, in analogy to the method of signal reception practised by the GPS and GLONASS constellations.

CAPS

3. Because the satellite is only a transponder, the navigation signal relies on the ground station. If anything happens to the ground station or the uplink, the satellite loses its navigation function. Compared with the other navigation satellite systems, therefore, CAPS is more vulnerable.

Beidou 2 will supposedly allow receivers to be receivers instead of requesters but by now, privacy activists already have plenty of doubts on the honesty of the Chinese government.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The reality is that while the Beidou system has some advantages, those advantages belongs in the logistical, not the technical, realm,

originally posted by gambit

Now your post in #62 figures. If the tech that you outlined is being used, then the satellites will be much smaller, lighter, cheaper and easier to maintain. All on a substantially lower budget and not so challenging technologically.

 

[applesauce]

The car is not driving, YOU are. You are talking as if no one else here uses satellite assisted location/driving except for you. What a feeble attempt at defending the Beidou system.

no sh1t Sherlock, i am the driver, how does that change anything? if i dont know the neighborhood/route how would i know which exit/turn to take if the GPS don't tell me. you like looking at the map thats your fetish not mine.

Easy...

The Beidou system is only 1/2 as satellite assisted navigation as the American GPS. See if you can figure out what that mean...

okay so the chinese system requires the gps receiver to transmit as well, thats a disadvantage yes(battery comsumption and such).

you have yet to tell me what about my daily movements in my car that the chinese government would find so interesting not to mention there is no name/ID attached to such a GPS device, it could be anyone using the device

 

[below_freezing]

Not for the American GPS. But apparently not too many people, including the Chinese, know the truth about the Beidou system, so here goes...

The Beidou as a satellite assisted navigation system with its 'Big Brother' aspect have been known for a long time but the Chinese government tries very hard to suppress that fact.

For the Beidou system, each satellite is only a relay of queries and responses...

http://events.eoportal.org/presentations/10001572/10001573.html

For Beidou 1, it is the ground controller that tells the receiver/requester its location. Not that the receiver calculates its own positions from triangulation of detected satellites.



CAPS

Beidou 2 will supposedly allow receivers to be receivers instead of requesters but by now, privacy activists already have plenty of doubts on the honesty of the Chinese government.

How will the very feeble signal from a Beidou device transmit back to the satellite without very strong degradation? A receiver only mode is much easier to build.

 

[gambit]

no sh1t Sherlock, i am the driver, how does that change anything? if i dont know the neighborhood/route how would i know which exit/turn to take if the GPS don't tell me. you like looking at the map thats your fetish not mine.

Sure as the sky is blue Sherlock you ain't. You talk as if YOU are the only one who know how to use the GPS. In Vegas, there are plenty of roads close enough to each other that will throw any civilian GPS off that will require the driver to pay attention to his driving regardless of what his GPS device indicate, whether it be 20 meters or 10 meters accurate.

okay so the chinese system requires the gps receiver to transmit as well, thats a disadvantage yes(battery comsumption and such).

Dang...Schooled by an American and from an 'inferior' Asian at that.

you have yet to tell me what about my daily movements in my car that the chinese government would find so interesting not to mention there is no name/ID attached to such a GPS device, it could be anyone using the device

You gotta be freaking kidding me, jack...!!!

WHEN YOU HAVE A TRANSPONDER AND/OR RELAY DEVICE THAT MUST MANAGE MULTIPLE CLIENTS IN A TWO-WAY COMMUNICATION PROTOCOL, YOU MUST HAVE A WAY OF DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN CLIENTS, AND WHAT ELSE BUT CLIENTS HAVE THEIR OWN UNIQUE IDS?

Yup...Sure as the sky is blue Sherlock you ain't. It does not matter if it is the political dissent who drives his car or loaned it to the his neighbor. What matter is that the Chinese government is able to keep track of A CAR. Sooner or later the political dissent will drive it and government agents will be able to track his movements to other political dissidents. Get it now ?

---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------

How will the very feeble signal from a Beidou device transmit back to the satellite without very strong degradation? A receiver only mode is much easier to build.

Feeble? Is the satellite phone feeble?

 

[HavocHeaven]

Beidou 2 will supposedly allow receivers to be receivers instead of requesters but by now, privacy activists already have plenty of doubts on the honesty of the Chinese government.

So you do know the difference between Beidou-1 and Beidou-2, right? You just keep skeptical that Beidou-2 terminal （without Beidou-1 back compatibility）may not be a truly passive client as the China government claim. Well, you can build your own Beidou-2 navigator from scratches (IC, PCB, antenna etc.), using interface control files released by China government. You can make sure nothing will be transmitted.

Actually Beidou will not sell anything but IC design license. Everything commercially available to you is manufactured by 3rd party companies. Conspiracy theory sucks.

 

[gambit]

So you do know the difference between Beidou-1 and Beidou-2, right? You just keep skeptical that Beidou-2 terminal （without Beidou-1 back compatibility）may not be a truly passive client as the China government claim. Well, you can build your own Beidou-2 navigator from scratches (IC, PCB, antenna etc.), using interface control files released by China government. You can make sure nothing will be transmitted.

Actually Beidou will not sell anything but IC design license. Everything commercially available to you is manufactured by 3rd party companies. Conspiracy theory sucks.

The only way Beidou 2 will be completely trusted is when the system is reviewed and proven to be 100% passive by credible third party and you can bet your life that IEEE or EDN or the likes will be all over the system. I trust them more than I trust the Chinese government. I have no problems using Beidou at that time. Bi-directional governmental dependency satellite navigation system sucks.

 

[Guest]

To the public, if you value your privacy, DO NOT use Beidou.

To the public, if you value your privacy, DO NOT use mobile phones. turn them off (and remember to REMOVE their batteries) now!

 

[HavocHeaven]

The only way Beidou 2 will be completely trusted is when the system is reviewed and proven to be 100% passive by credible third party and you can bet your life that IEEE or EDN or the likes will be all over the system. I trust them more than I trust the Chinese government. I have no problems using Beidou at that time. Bi-directional governmental dependency satellite navigation system sucks.

FFS stop being willfully ignorant. It's crystal clear that a US GPS-like navigation system is technically a subset of Beidou-2. Beidou-2 is NOT "Bi-directional governmental dependency" which means you don't have to send anything to satellites to locate yourself. Plain and Simple. Only when you need the message feature, realized by Beidou-1 payload attached to Beidou-2 GEO satellites, you implement TX antenna on your Beidou-2 terminal.

Tell me how the hell can you doubt anything if China never touches a single molecule of you Beidou-2 navigator? How? Paranoid sucks!

Regarding Beidou-2 terminals with messenger, it's perfectly reasonable if people don't trust Beidou until they know for sure there is no backdoor or whatever malicious stuff. But again, nobody points a gun on your head to force you. If you don't trust Beidou, use passive navigation only. If you don't trust Google, don't use Gmail, use search engine only. Not a big deal.

 

[canadian icehole]

To the public, if you value your privacy, DO NOT use mobile phones. turn them off (and remember to REMOVE their batteries) now!

LOL gambit might as well live off the "grid" (i.e. pay cash only, no credit cards, no utility bills, etc...). Unfortunately for him, posting online doesn't help with the "living off the grid".

 

[applesauce]

Sure as the sky is blue Sherlock you ain't. You talk as if YOU are the only one who know how to use the GPS. In Vegas, there are plenty of roads close enough to each other that will throw any civilian GPS off that will require the driver to pay attention to his driving regardless of what his GPS device indicate, whether it be 20 meters or 10 meters accurate.


Dang...Schooled by an American and from an 'inferior' Asian at that.

i dont think you understand what "schooled" means

of course we pay attention to the road but LIKE i alrady said, if you dont know the area and the GPS thinks your on a different road its not gonna give you the correct instructions hence you may take a wroing turn until the GPS corrects itself, do you understand?

You gotta be freaking kidding me, jack...!!!

WHEN YOU HAVE A TRANSPONDER AND/OR RELAY DEVICE THAT MUST MANAGE MULTIPLE CLIENTS IN A TWO-WAY COMMUNICATION PROTOCOL, YOU MUST HAVE A WAY OF DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN CLIENTS, AND WHAT ELSE BUT CLIENTS HAVE THEIR OWN UNIQUE IDS?

AND what? when i bought the GPS i dont need an ID to buy it, i didnt need to register the chip client ID to my name.

i sold my GPS on ebay, hey look, no way of knowing if its still me using it.

Yup...Sure as the sky is blue Sherlock you ain't. It does not matter if it is the political dissent who drives his car or loaned it to the his neighbor. What matter is that the Chinese government is able to keep track of A CAR. Sooner or later the political dissent will drive it and government agents will be able to track his movements to other political dissidents. Get it now ?

Feeble? Is the satellite phone feeble?

oh noes!!! like others have already said YOU are so concerned about this? better stop using the internet, better stop using your cell phone(and regular phone), hell please go dig a hole in the woods , apperently thats the only way you wanna live.

 

[gambit]

i dont think you understand what "schooled" means

of course we pay attention to the road but LIKE i alrady said, if you dont know the area and the GPS thinks your on a different road its not gonna give you the correct instructions hence you may take a wroing turn until the GPS corrects itself, do you understand?

This tell me right of the bat, right from the git-go, that you have never used a GPS device in an OFF-ROAD environment, that you have never used it when snow covered the terrain for as far as the eyes can see for kilometers, and that you have never used it off shore when land is out of sight.

Clue for you, conscript reject, the satellite assisted navigation method is supposed to be SUPPLEMENTARY to the human brain, eyes, and ears. Never a replacement. Map overlays and integration are the responsibility of the user, meaning the consumer and the device manufacturer, not the satellite assist machines themselves. In other words, map overlays and integration that determine GPS accuracy for city usage rests upon the maker of the device and it is their differences in competency that distinguishes themselves from each other.

But if you had ever used GPS in an off-road or at sea environment you would know that when the user has weather permitted visibility he is supposed to use his senses and his brain to get to his final destination and people have used theirs at far greater distance than 20 meters. If you cannot see AND comprehend where you are going at 20 meters accuracy, in the desert or in the ocean, then 10 meters or even 5 meters accuracy is not going to help you. If you cannot set aside the machine and use your own brain and senses at 20 meters accuracy, then you deserve to get lost and eaten by wild animals. The GPS method was NEVER intended to replace the human brain and the map.

Here is another clue for you: The reason why we want satellite assisted bombings is because we want to carry less bombs per mission. We want to put the bomb's maximum potential as close to the target as possible. Some targets are hardened so that 20 or 10 meters miss they will survive, so we want to use GPS to deliver everything the bomb has right on the target itself.

That is with GPS assisted weapons delivery. Would an increase in 10 meters accuracy matters in this situation? No. In other situations? May be. But if the US with the current system can render a runway system useless for hours if not days, then a 10 meters accuracy improvement will not matter.

But if we are talking about city drivers, backwoods hikers or even open water sailors, if you need an increase in 10 meters accuracy -- from 20 to 10 -- then it is best if you remain home. Poor baby that he cannot use his senses and his brain when he is within 20 meters of his destination when guided by the American GPS and must have the Chinese Beidou with its 10 meters improvement while trying to find a hotel in a strange city.

Yeah...I schooled you...Again.

AND what? when i bought the GPS i dont need an ID to buy it, i didnt need to register the chip client ID to my name.

i sold my GPS on ebay, hey look, no way of knowing if its still me using it.

It is not YOU but the device. A satellite assisted navigation device is not something you buy and discard the next day, next week, or even within the next 5 yrs. You buy it and as long as it serves you with reasonable reliability, you will keep it for as long as its features continues to serve your needs. How long you have the watch on your left wrist?

oh noes!!! like others have already said YOU are so concerned about this? better stop using the internet, better stop using your cell phone(and regular phone), hell please go dig a hole in the woods , apperently thats the only way you wanna live.

The issue is about governmental knowledge and tracking of your activities and satellite assisted navigation is the method in discussion. In the US, we already have issues with 'Big Brother'. But here is where your hypocrisy shines: You are trying to defend the Chinese government's ways of keeping tabs on the people but if the US government does the same things, you would be crying bloody murder.

 

[DrSomnath999]

HQ 9 has limited anti ballistic missile capability unlike S 400 so what's the point of buying S400 for just comparing what HQ9 is not
having

 

[bdslph]

S400 simply the best no other country i think was able to make like the S400 SAM
China needs the S400 not only them even Pakistan
Imagine the S300 was block by the USA to be sold to Iran
so think what the S400 can do