China-Taiwan reunification

[below_freezing]

i have nothing but respect for everyone. i do not have respect for YY, as that is not a personal trait but a character fault.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Btw, Martian 2 is a very patriotic Chinese, he deserve respect.

I agree, Martian2 is very patriotic.

 

[Martian2]

has it? taiwan has made the IDF, compare that with the F-16 and J-10, it is slow, light and weak.

a strength in computer chips does not mean a strength in overall technology. especially when the leap from "computer" to "thermonuclear" is so large, and both are completely unrelated fields. if you were talking about japan being nuclear capable (the warhead, not the missile itself), maybe. taiwan however lacks the aerospace experience to manufacture modern ballistic missiles (just look at the state of taiwan's indigenous fighter) and the nuclear experience to get anywhere near an atomic weapon.

and at any signs of enrichment we can take it out just like israel took out iraq's reactors at the height of saddam's power. the americans would also not lift a finger at this.

don't overestimate yourselves. we aren't going to sacrifice the rest of china for taiwan.

I was not aware that Mainlanders believe in a reunify or else. Though I have been raised in a KMT household and was formerly an ardent supporter of reunification, my view on reunification is changing; based on my concern that below_freezing's attitude may represent the majority on Mainland China.

Han unity is important to strengthen all Hans. However, when one side is eager to bomb the other side, Taiwanese may very well decide to cast their lot with the United States, Europe, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand.

If Taiwan held a referendum today on reunification, based on below_freezing's "my way or the highway" stance, I would have to vote "no" (e.g. I hold dual passports). I had hoped that Taiwan would join a nation of moderates. For the first time, I am worried that there may be a lot more hawks in China than I thought.

Let me think about this. Though it is heretical for a KMT household member to believe in independence, it is possible that Taiwan's cultural norms and attitudes have differed considerably from Mainland China's (if below_freezing represents the majority). Okay, maybe the DPP isn't nuts. Below_freezing would scare the hell out of most Taiwanese. Are they really prepared to join that?

In any case, my position has shifted. Instead of being an ardent supporter of reunification, I have changed my mind and I support the status quo for the foreseeable future.

 

[below_freezing]

good to see that you're keeping an open mind. i believe any individual, and collection of individuals, has the right to make their own wise judgments, and deal with their consequences accordingly.

i'm not an idealist, i am a realist. in the real world, concessions don't always get you a good deal back. what concrete compromises has taiwan made compared to what the mainland has made? this is a question that everyone should ponder.

now, i don't suggest that we learn from the experts in rebel management such as israel and britain. what i do suggest is a critical re-evaluation of policies toward taiwan to optimize them for best result.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Below_freezing, do you WANT reunification or not?

Do you believe in the CCP's one-China policy?

You seem pleased that you have caused Martian2 to stop supporting reunification.

 

[Martian2]

It is important for people to understand that I do not take this discussion personally. Below_freezing is entitled to his opinion. However, it is the tone and substance of his opinion that concern me.

I was raised in a pro-unification KMT household. I used to think that the DPP was nuts.

I was a strong advocate of unification for a variety of reasons. Firstly, a conflict across the Taiwan Strait posed the single greatest danger to Taiwan. Though I have many relatives living in the United States, there is still a substantial number that live on Taiwan. It seemed rational that unification would remove the threat of a shooting war.

Secondly, the lowering of tensions would permit Taiwan to drastically reduce defense spending and lay the groundwork for an economic boom.

Thirdly, it seemed disheartening that other countries have reunited (e.g. Germany and Vietnam) but not China and Taiwan.

Having said that, I also understand the mentality and soul of Taiwanese very well. Though the benefits of unification are significant, Taiwanese are not inclined to unify if there is a poor fit between the cultural norms of China and Taiwan.

In other words, if Taiwan proceeds with unification, Taiwanese need to have confidence that their way of life will not drastically change. Below_freezing's comments are the first that I've heard, which indicates Mainland bitterness toward Taiwan. His cavalier attitude of offering an iron fist to Taiwan will definitely scare off my fellow Taiwanese.

I know Taiwanese society well enough to say that the status quo is definitely the best option. Trust me, the more that below_freezing posts on the internet, the more Taiwanese that he will scare off. Below_freezing will definitely change their minds.

 

[twocents]

Relax, Chinese-Dragon. If all of us had to mince our words when discussing an issue, what would be the point of having the discussion in the firrt place? To say that below_freezing somehow caused Martian2 to stop supporting unification is s big stretch. If anything, Martian2's latest remark smells more like a threat. He is essetially saying that if Chinese mainlanders do not agree with his take on things he'll support independence instead. That is a case of the proverbial "play ball my way or I'll pick the marbles and go home."

 

[Martian2]

Relax, Chinese-Dragon. If all of us had to mince our words when discussing an issue, what would be the point of having the discussion in the firrt place? To say that below_freezing somehow caused Martian2 to stop supporting unification is s big stretch. If anything, Martian2's latest remark smells more like a threat. He is essetially saying that if Chinese mainlanders do not agree with his take on things he'll support independence instead. That is a case of the proverbial "play ball my way or I'll pick the marbles and go home."

I do not agree with your characterization of my view. Most Taiwanese are moderates and they are cautious. If Taiwanese believe that they are reuniting with fellow Hans and Taiwan's way of life will remain mostly unchanged then it is a good decision.

However, if Taiwan is reunifying with an angry and bitter Mainland China populace then Taiwan will face an uncertain future. The only problem is that I have no way of determining the mood and beliefs of the majority of the Mainland population with certainty.

Until I know whether Taiwan will be welcomed with open arms (and in the spirit of cooperation) or if Taiwan will face resentment, it is too early to discuss reunification.

I suggest that you read below_freezing's posts again. Does that sound like the welcome of a comrade or is he pissed? You tell me.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

In other words, if Taiwan proceeds with unification, Taiwanese need to have confidence that their way of life will not drastically change. Below_freezing's comments are the first that I've heard, which indicates Mainland bitterness toward Taiwan. His cavalier attitude of offering an iron fist to Taiwan will definitely scare off my fellow Taiwanese.

Look to Hong Kong, to see the benefits of (eventual) reunification.

After the handover, my way of life didn't change at all. In fact, I would say that things have gotten better!

We have complete autonomy in Hong Kong, the only things we have to give up are foreign relations and defence, for those we come under the PRC umbrella. Taiwan might not even have to give those things up!

Chinese reunification is the best thing we can do, to create a new golden age of Chinese civilization.

We can finally bring the civil war to an end, with all our Chinese brothers and sisters reunited, for a better future.

 

[Martian2]

Look to Hong Kong, to see the benefits of (eventual) reunification.

After the handover, my way of life didn't change at all. In fact, I would say that things have gotten better!

We have complete autonomy in Hong Kong, the only things we have to give up are foreign relations and defence, for those we come under the PRC umbrella. Taiwan might not even have to give those things up!

Chinese reunification is the best thing we can do, to create a new golden age of Chinese civilization.

We can finally bring the civil war to an end, with all our Chinese brothers and sisters reunited, for a better future.

I'll search for a poll that shows the majority of Mainland Chinese are favorable to reunifying with Taiwan on mutually acceptable terms. After that, I'm back to pushing for reunification. It's hard to get rid of KMT habits.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I'll search for a poll that shows the majority of Mainland Chinese are favorable to reunifying with Taiwan on mutually acceptable terms. After that, I'm back to pushing for reunification. It's hard to get rid of KMT habits.

LOL.

Reunification is a "long-term" thing anyway, so no rush. I don't expect anything major to happen in the next decade or two.

Still, it's good to dream and plan for the future.

 

[Nomenclature]

I was not aware that Mainlanders believe in a reunify or else. Though I have been raised in a KMT household and was formerly an ardent supporter of reunification, my view on reunification is changing; based on my concern that below_freezing's attitude may represent the majority on Mainland China.

Han unity is important to strengthen all Hans. However, when one side is eager to bomb the other side, Taiwanese may very well decide to cast their lot with the United States, Europe, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand.

If Taiwan held a referendum today on reunification, based on below_freezing's "my way or the highway" stance, I would have to vote "no" (e.g. I hold dual passports). I had hoped that Taiwan would join a nation of moderates. For the first time, I am worried that there may be a lot more hawks in China than I thought.

Let me think about this. Though it is heretical for a KMT household member to believe in independence, it is possible that Taiwan's cultural norms and attitudes have differed considerably from Mainland China's (if below_freezing represents the majority). Okay, maybe the DPP isn't nuts. Below_freezing would scare the hell out of most Taiwanese. Are they really prepared to join that?

In any case, my position has shifted. Instead of being an ardent supporter of reunification, I have changed my mind and I support the status quo for the foreseeable future.

Honestly you needn't be alarmed by this. There's little chance people like us who posts on an English-language South Asia-focused military forum could represent the majority of mainlanders.

Also I think it's a testimony of the increasing plurality of opinions on the mainland that some people are openly questioning government's reunification strategy.

But with all that said, I do think Below_Freezing had made a very good point.

The Mainland had made a lot of concessions to accommodate Taiwan, Below_Freezing gave the example of fruit farmers with the ECFA and I'm sure there are more example like that. Mainland fruit farmers are far poorer than their Taiwanese counterparts, yet the Chinese government is giving Taiwanese farmers access to the Mainland market without asking the same in return for mainland farmers, effectively subsidizing Taiwanese farmers at the expanse of those on the mainland, who really struggles just to make a living.

At the moment I think there's board support on the mainland for the government's policy toward Taiwan and there's an enormous amount of good will toward Taiwanese people. But it would be wrong to assume such good will will continue indefinitely if we keep making concessions yet get nothing in return.

Also I share Below_freezing's opinion that Mr.Ma's idea of no reunification before mainland becomes a democracy to be deeply insulting. Mainland is not demanding Taiwan to adopt our system of governance, and KMT should stop asking us to adopt theirs.

As I said before in this thread, I think Hong Kong is going to be an important test case. If we can make universal suffrage a reality in 2017 chief executive election and 2022 (I think) Legco election, then we'll be showing Taiwan that we can allow a democratic system to flourish in China. Mainland is willing to cut a deal similar to Hong Kong with Taiwan, perhaps on even more favorable terms. But that's the best we should offer, I don't think we need to change our own system of governance on the mainland in a fundamental way just to appease Taiwan.

 

[Martian2]

Honestly you needn't be alarmed by this. There's little chance people like us who posts on an English-language South Asia-focused military forum could represent the majority of mainlanders.

Also I think it's a testimony of the increasing plurality of opinions on the mainland that some people are openly questioning government's reunification strategy.

But with all that said, I do think Below_Freezing had made a very good point.

The Mainland had made a lot of concessions to accommodate Taiwan, Below_Freezing gave the example of fruit farmers with the ECFA and I'm sure there are more example like that. Mainland fruit farmers are far poorer than their Taiwanese counterparts, yet the Chinese government is giving Taiwanese farmers access to the Mainland market without asking the same in return for mainland farmers, effectively subsidizing Taiwanese farmers at the expanse of those on the mainland, who really struggles just to make a living.

At the moment I think there's board support on the mainland for the government's policy toward Taiwan and there's an enormous amount of good will toward Taiwanese people. But it would be wrong to assume such good will will continue indefinitely if we keep making concessions yet get nothing in return.

Also I share Below_freezing's opinion that Mr.Ma's idea of no reunification before mainland becomes a democracy to be deeply insulting. Mainland is not demanding Taiwan to adopt our system of governance, and KMT should stop asking us to adopt theirs.

As I said before in this thread, I think Hong Kong is going to be an important test case. If we can make universal suffrage a reality in 2017 chief executive election and 2022 (I think) Legco election, then we'll be showing Taiwan that we can allow a democratic system to flourish in China. Mainland is willing to cut a deal similar to Hong Kong with Taiwan, perhaps on even more favorable terms. But that's the best we should offer, I don't think we need to change our own system of governance on the mainland in a fundamental way just to appease Taiwan.

This is getting complicated. Let me selectively address some of the details.

Firstly, the country of China is rich. They have a large annual trade surplus, $2.4 trillion dollars in forex, and interest income from the forex investments. If they wanted, the CPC could easily subsidize the farmers to compensate for any effects from the ECFA.

I don't think that Ma is serious in his demand that the CPC change its form of governance before reunification. It is merely political cover. Ma knows that this is a long-term project and he is working to pull Taiwan closer to China (e.g. ECFA).

You are the second person that is unhappy with the ECFA. I'm beginning to wonder at the level of support for the ECFA on the Mainland. Even more importantly, I wonder if the CPC can uphold its end of a bargain with Taiwan. In other words, what confidence do Taiwanese have that the CPC will be around long enough to honor its end of a 50-year agreement.

If the ECFA is apparently this unpopular, the terms of a China-Taiwan reunification agreement may spur a revolution on the Mainland. Anyway, that is just one more variable to throw into the mix. Taiwanese voters will eventually have to decide whether they believe that the CPC can hold off the Mainland populace and honor a 50-year agreement.

 

[topjumper]

Below_freezing had some unpleasant encounters with some right wings on taiwan blogs before, I guess that's why he's a bit disgruntled and harsh towards taiwan.

I think the sentiment of mainlanders on taiwanese is quite consistent -- if you are pro-unification then you are always welcome, if you are pro-independence then you'd be treated like public enemy no.1

 

[Omar1984]

I support the China-Taiwan Reunification.