China Planemaker Gets New Orders in Fight With Airbus, Boeing

[jaunty]

Yes chinese i meant. Bombardier assembles its aircraft, China makes the parts.

Already addressed that.

 

[Keel]

No need to get your panties in a twist. Their are incidents of serious security breaches even in the US.

Hitting a buffalo by an Indian plane is phenonmenal
No need to lessen the Indian pain by bringing the security problems in other countries

 

[jaunty]

Hitting a buffalo by an Indian plane is phenonmenal
No need to lessen the Indian pain by bringing the security problems in other countries

It was indeed quite extraordinary. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Keel]

I would trust Bombardier quality control even if they make their parts in China.

If Bombardier can do it, of course China can do it, better

 

[razgriz19]

I would trust Bombardier quality control even if they make their parts in China.

I personally know the quality control manager of the factory in Toronto. He is actually now production manager.
Met him at a friends wedding...he told me stories..believe they're were fun and scary too!

 

[Keel]

It was indeed quite extraordinary. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

No, since you bring the security and safety issues of our plane into discussion
I am giving examples to refute your worries

 

[jaunty]

I personally know the quality control manager of the factory in Toronto. He is actually now production manager.
Met him at a friends wedding...he told me stories..believe they're were fun and scary too!

OK now that you got me all scared, let me cancel my order of the private jet with Bombardier and look for other options.

 

[jaunty]

No, since you bring the security and safety issues of our plane into discussion
I am giving examples to refute your worries

I was just expressing my opinion. If it makes you feel better I would say the same thing if tomorrow an Indian company comes up with one. I did mention "for now" which should be self explanatory.

 

[Keel]

ARJ-21 700 regional plane is going to be delivered to customers by end of this year or early 2015
So far there is no delay in having Type certification approval by end of 2014

Comac 919 narrow body is scheduled for its first trial flight in 2015
Comac 929 widebody is starting project research now

 

[razgriz19]

Bombardier’s CSeries and China - FT Business - Companies & Management Video - FT.com
at 4:37 mark

"The whole Fuselage of CSeries is done by AVIC"
- Bombardier's CEO



I hope PIA would look for Chinese options after the 6 year lease expires on baby buses

 

[gambit]

China's domestic airline market alone is going to be enormous in the future, even more so than it is now.

May be so, but along with that growth, cost due to inefficiencies will also be enormous.

Airlines keep adapting to high fuel costs | www.ajc.com

Fuel costs make up about 35 percent of airline operating costs, said John Heimlich, chief economist at Airlines for America, a major airline industry lobbying group in Washington.

Keep that in mind: Fuel constitutes up to 35% of an airline's operating cost.

Now pay attention to this...

Chinese airlines must strengthen cost controls - Fitch | CAPA - Centre for Aviation

Since 2005, domestic jet fuel prices have been very close to prevailing international prices, but the unit fuel cost of major Chinese carriers was still 15-20 pct higher than that of Cathay in the first half of 2005.

"This is probably due to their use of older, less fuel-efficient aircraft and limited operations on longer, international, routes which are inherently more fuel efficient," Liu said.

Pay attention to this: International routes are more fuel efficient.

Why are international routes are more fuel efficient ? Because international airspace is not controlled by anyone.

Chinese pilots flying domestic routes know that as long as the PLA continue to control domestic airspace, their flights will always be less fuel efficient than other airlines' pilots flying in their countries' domestic airspace. Why ? Because in those other countries, specifically the Western ones, the militaries do not control domestic airspaces.

Boeing adopts NASA software to boost airline fuel efficiency | Network World

Initial Boeing projections show that Direct Routes can save more than 40,000 minutes of flight time per year for a medium-size U.S. airline -- the equivalent of operating hundreds of flights that use no fuel and produce no emissions.

According to NASA, rather than being able to fly the most efficient route to a destination, aircraft operators in today's air traffic control system are usually constrained to follow established airways that are often comprised of inefficient route segments. Current air traffic control user interface inefficiencies inhibit controllers from issuing user preferred routes, even under light traffic conditions.

Avionics Magazine :: European Airlines Waste 60K Nautical Miles Daily

[Avionics Today July 7, 2014] European airlines and operators are flying a combined 60,000 nautical miles more than they should be on a daily basis, according to a new report from Air Traffic Management (ATM) organization Eurocontrol. There are an estimated 8,000 flight plans filed by European operators daily that feature routes that are longer than the best route available, Eurocontrol said. The inefficient routes result from the need for improvements to the design of the airspace, a disconnect between flight plans filed and the routes actually flown and inefficient operator flight planning, according to Eurocontrol.

In the US and in the EU, airlines have much greater freedom to analyze and petition for changes in established air corridors to eliminate fuel inefficient routes and to create new and more fuel efficient routes. They have the hard data to back up their petitions. Whereas in China, the PLA is the final arbiter of anything in the sky and the bureaucracy that constantly have national security concerns -- more like paranoia -- designed routes that it believes is the most secured, the fact that the PLA may be wrong is irrelevant, and those routes resulted in 15-20% higher fuel costs compares to foreign airlines.

And if you think I am making this shit up...

Flights in China Consume More Fuel Because of Military Airspace Restrictions?

"In North America and Europe, airliners fly relatively direct point-to-point routes in going from one city to the next. These vary for reasons of congestion, but overall the routes are relatively straight," he wrote in his book. "In China, because of military airspace restrictions, the routes can be much more indirect and therefore require much more time, use more fuel and create more emissions."

Military control of domestic airspace also cost China in other ways -- tragically.

Sichuan schools corruption scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Disaster management experts in the West believes that had China have even 1/2 the civil aviation freedom as the Western countries do, the Sichuan earthquake would probably results in less deaths and quicker recovery -- helicopters. Or rather the lack thereof.

 

[Keel]

May be so, but along with that growth, cost due to inefficiencies will also be enormous.

Airlines keep adapting to high fuel costs | www.ajc.com

Keep that in mind: Fuel constitutes up to 35% of an airline's operating cost.

Now pay attention to this...

Chinese airlines must strengthen cost controls - Fitch | CAPA - Centre for Aviation

Pay attention to this: International routes are more fuel efficient.

Why are international routes are more fuel efficient ? Because international airspace is not controlled by anyone.

Chinese pilots flying domestic routes know that as long as the PLA continue to control domestic airspace, their flights will always be less fuel efficient than other airlines' pilots flying in their countries' domestic airspace. Why ? Because in those other countries, specifically the Western ones, the militaries do not control domestic airspaces.

Boeing adopts NASA software to boost airline fuel efficiency | Network World


Avionics Magazine :: European Airlines Waste 60K Nautical Miles Daily

In the US and in the EU, airlines have much greater freedom to analyze and petition for changes in established air corridors to eliminate fuel inefficient routes and to create new and more fuel efficient routes. They have the hard data to back up their petitions. Whereas in China, the PLA is the final arbiter of anything in the sky and the bureaucracy that constantly have national security concerns -- more like paranoia -- designed routes that it believes is the most secured, the fact that the PLA may be wrong is irrelevant, and those routes resulted in 15-20% higher fuel costs compares to foreign airlines.

And if you think I am making this shit up...

Flights in China Consume More Fuel Because of Military Airspace Restrictions?

Military control of domestic airspace also cost China in other ways -- tragically.

Sichuan schools corruption scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Disaster management experts in the West believes that had China have even 1/2 the civil aviation freedom as the Western countries do, the Sichuan earthquake would probably results in less deaths and quicker recovery -- helicopters. Or rather the lack thereof.

Just the price differentials of the cost of the planes and other lower operating costs will dispel the alleged loss in fuel efficiency and in the latter regard, you need to obtain data on the number of flight routes which are affected due to military factors and that has led to more fuel costs than routine flights. Are these data available to you?

Regarding the Sichuan tragedies, no need to rub salt on wounds that have been healed
Shall I remind you that even after 9/11, your war on terror is still going on unabated?

 

[gambit]

Just the price differentials of the cost of the planes and other lower operating costs will dispel the alleged loss in fuel efficiency and in the latter regard, you need to obtain data on the number of flight routes which are affected due to military factors and that has led to more fuel costs than routine flights. Are these data available to you?

You wish. Foreign airlines are constantly under pressure to reduce cost. So what you are talking -- more like dreaming -- about is that there might be enough cost cutting measures somewhere that may get China Airlines down a few percentage points but still behind foreign airlines and that will be acceptable.

As far as routes and fuel consumption data goes, I guess tens of thousands of professionals flying daily in and out of China imagined the readings in their fuel gauges and logs.

Regarding the Sichuan tragedies, no need to rub salts on wounds that have been healed

No rubbing there, just pointed out an obvious fact that local civil aviation organizations would have responded much faster and more efficient than the PLA did. But that is the price you would be willing to pay just to support the PLA out of sheer mule headedness.

Shall I remind you that even after 9/11, your war on terror is still going on unabated?

Yaaaaaawwwwn...

 

[Keel]

You wish. Foreign airlines are constantly under pressure to reduce cost. So what you are talking -- more like dreaming -- about is that there might be enough cost cutting measures somewhere that may get China Airlines down a few percentage points but still behind foreign airlines and that will be acceptable.

I think you are day dreaming
Our commercial airlines are listed on stock exchanges and they are under pressure for cost control and effieciency like overseas counterparts
Most of american airlines suffer disasterous corporation performances. I think our airlines are just better

As far as routes and fuel consumption data goes, I guess tens of thousands of professionals flying daily in and out of China imagined the readings in their fuel gauges and logs.

Nonsense
Do all the 1000s of "professionals" gathered together and summarized their data
Even if they are stupid to do that, do they have our flight data for comparison?

No rubbing there, just pointed out an obvious fact that local civil aviation organizations would have responded much faster and more efficient than the PLA did. But that is the price you would be willing to pay just to support the PLA out of sheer mule headedness.

How many flights have been affected due to military factors?
Nutheads like to believe there is loss of fuel efficiecy on a whim but neglect the other cost factors we have saved

If it is not due to the american threat on us, we would not even have so many military announcements that would affect civilian flights
Shame on the American's hegemony

Yaaaaaawwwwn...

Is that how you respond to a pain in your wound? That is new

 

[gambit]

I think you are day dreaming

Yours is the typical Chinese disdain for experience from arrogance, even when said experience is documented and in front of you.

Inefficient routing structures have plenty of peripheral consequences. Crews, for example. Longer routes than comparable to other countries' may require you to have more aircrews to service the same distance, which may require longer crew rest, which increases your labor cost. Longer routes that came from inefficient routing that demand longer flight time increases frame and engine hrs, which increases maintenance, periodic and unscheduled.

Aircraft Replacement Strategy | Sabre Airline Solutions

The suggested strategy favors new aircraft to be leased over short-term periods. Short-term leases provide fleet flexibility to adjust capacity and respond to changes in the marketplace, if needed. The strategy also discourages fleet diversity. Having a less-diverse fleet will minimize overall operating costs because cockpit and cabin crew can be cross-trained and utilized. This provides flexibility to the operation, giving the ability to respond to irregular operations, increase maintenance efficiency, reduce costs and boost productivity.

Inefficient routing structure may -- not must -- demand you to have fleet diversity, meaning more than one type of aircraft, in order to service those routes, which will put additional strain on your training and certification program, not just for pilots but also on maintenance. Then when a particular aircraft needs to be retired, you may not be able to find a replacement for it due to many reasons, such as competitors who bought/leased the aircraft type you need. Or that aircraft is no longer in production.

Southwest Airlines sees benefit in upcoming fleet diversity | Dallas Morning News

One problem in shedding the Boeing 717-200s is that it is an orphan aircraft - that is, it's not being manufactured anymore and only a few airlines fly it. Among U.S. carriers, Hawaiian Airlines Inc. operates 15 of the Boeing 717s. Now-grounded Mexicana also operated a fleet.

Fleet diversity will increase your insurance. Fleet diversity will increase logistic costs, such as spare parts stocking. Fleet diversity may be necessary in some cases, but usually it is discouraged. All or most or many of this came from inefficient routing.

But noooo...You who probably can barely tell the difference between a hammer and a screwdriver know better than all the professionals in the industry.

Is that how you respond to a pain in your wound? That is new

What pain ? From you ? So far I have credible sources to back up my arguments. What do you have but wishful thinking that the few Chinese airlines can reduce other operating costs to offset higher fuel costs due to the military control of Chinese domestic airspace.

Right now, China's domestic aviation industry is still growing, but if the desire is to grow as cost efficient as possible, then the PLA must be out of the equation.

I hope shortsighted people like you are at the top of the Chinese aviation industry.