China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan

[Zarvan]

Wont See any Twin Fighter Joining PAF in near 5 years , And For SU 35 , i Really dont Know After that Offer Everyone is Jumping For Su 35 , Yes its a great platform but Many things come into Play Pakistan will be keeping Western , Chinese , Russian Jets , Simply maintaining so many diverse platforms will be problem because we have to keep that in my mind in near future PAF will try to go for 5th Gen and try to save that money from 4.5 Gen jet and will see more F 16s nd 17 In PAF colours and keeping all these birds in one network will also be something , because all these birds use different networks and in current gene warfare those force which is more networked centred will have more chance to win


Since They Are Buying All these Birds Few F 22 , F 18s Wont be a problem

Sir we always had several platforms we never just stuck to two so third 4.5th Generation would come the only question is which one ?

 

[CHI RULES]

For synergy of resources the country Air defense resources should be inter connected controlled under one command. Instead of current system PAF having different Air defence assets and Army having different.

 

[A2Z]

What collaboration or inputs can we provide on the 5th Gen fighter development program apart from money? Which, unfortunately, is in short supply at the moment. So that collaboration may not start any time soon as stealth programs are much much costlier than programs for fighters like the Thunder. Even the body (empty fuselage, wings and tail fins) is more costly compared to the conventional fighters of same size.

Unfortunately its a fact that we have almost nothing that we can offer as an input to any 5th generation program, but so does India but they are a partner in FGFA/T-50 program. Though we are short on cash but if we look at it from the perspective that what we will learn from such projects then that money would be well spent because IMO China can trusr Pakistan and provide our engineers an opportunity work on 5th generation aircraft.

It is roughly the same size as the F-35 ... in fact marginally bigger. It has two engines whereas the F-35 has one. The F-35 can carry 2 X AMRAAM-120s, 4 X AIM-9s and 2 X 2000 lbs bombs internally. Anything more will have to be carried under the wings and the plane becomes non-stealthy. This issue is further compounded on the J-31. Since it has 2 X engines, there is less free internal space available. This plane can carry only 4 X AAMs internally ... and that's all. For air to ground role it will have to carry its munitions under the wing ... there goes its stealthiness. Furthermore it can carry slightly more than half the internal fuel as the F-35 (which does not have long legs itself). The Grey Falcon is going to be seriously short legged and will depend much more on aerial refueling than other planes. I am not saying that this plane is going to go up against the F-35 but just trying to highlight the issues that it is going to present (more severely) than those which are already being discussed unfavorably about the F-35. This fighter has a lot of issues to be ironed out and I don't realistically see it coming before 2025 .. if at all we choose it to be our 5th Gen solution.

The only other alternative will be the J-20. Which will be quite costly to acquire and even costlier to operate. Even if China agrees to sell this fighter to Pakistan ... that will only happen after sufficient numbers have been inducted into the PLAAF. I don't see even this happening before 2025.

I totally agree with you that J-31 has its shortcomings that need to be addressed and it would certainly take time. However on the other hand it is the only 5th generation option that we have, J-20 is pretty much impossible for us firstly because of the cost and secondly because China has given clear cut signs that it would be something limited for PLAAF like F-22. As for other options F-35 and T-50 are something we would never get our hands on.

If you combine the amount of F 16 from jordan and upgration in this price tag we can get new and far bettef J 10 ready to fly rather than upgrading and every part is brand new and waste range of weapins better in manuverability u ask J 10 beat F 16 for PAF in all aspect

ou ara
I wont say that you are completely wrong but J-10 beats F-16 in almost all the requirement but have said it many times and again that F-16 is something that we know inside out over the years we have mastered the F-16 fighting. However on the other side J-10 if bought might be same in unit price but training and other things would certainly increase the cost and not to forget the time that would be needed to train our pilots fro J-10 and develop tactics for it.

What I know is Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform. I think Pakistan should prefer either J-11 D or SU-35

So there is a gap of 10 years, after which J-31 or J-20 will be inducted. But this 10 year gap should be filled with Su-35, J-11D or J-10C.

Su-35 is good fighter but as @CHI RULES pointed out it might become useless if IAF gets help from Russia which it would. Secondly Russian have the worst reputation when we talk about supplying spares, IAF's SU-30 has only 50% serviceability and the main reason is availability of spares and then Russian jets are a maintenance nightmare. Thirdly Russians would never offer us Su-35 not before 2020 that too if relations continue to improve.
So believe me PAF would never have the Su-35 option that leaves us with J-11D and J-10. J-11D again has many Russian inputs and again is in the phase of maturing.

 

[princefaisal]

J-11D seems more feasible than J-10 in replacing the mirage III/V aircrafts.

 

[CHI RULES]

Pak should now focus on Anti stealth capabilities and Passive sensors/radars instead of old systems. Whether it is Air defence or PAF jets we should prepare our selves for next era of stealth and hi jamming. Even now without Rafael IAF has jets with PESA radars and Irst/Jamming Pods along with RAM coatings which may prove to be effective enough in case of lighter fighter jets with exception of SU30. It will be highly appreciable if any one can compare radar ranges of Pak and IAF,

 

[Super Falcon]

Unfortunately its a fact that we have almost nothing that we can offer as an input to any 5th generation program, but so does India but they are a partner in FGFA/T-50 program. Though we are short on cash but if we look at it from the perspective that what we will learn from such projects then that money would be well spent because IMO China can trusr Pakistan and provide our engineers an opportunity work on 5th generation aircraft.

I totally agree with you that J-31 has its shortcomings that need to be addressed and it would certainly take time. However on the other hand it is the only 5th generation option that we have, J-20 is pretty much impossible for us firstly because of the cost and secondly because China has given clear cut signs that it would be something limited for PLAAF like F-22. As for other options F-35 and T-50 are something we would never get our hands on.
ou ara
I wont say that you are completely wrong but J-10 beats F-16 in almost all the requirement but have said it many times and again that F-16 is something that we know inside out over the years we have mastered the F-16 fighting. However on the other side J-10 if bought might be same in unit price but training and other things would certainly increase the cost and not to forget the time that would be needed to train our pilots fro J-10 and develop tactics for it.


Su-35 is good fighter but as @CHI RULES pointed out it might become useless if IAF gets help from Russia which it would. Secondly Russian have the worst reputation when we talk about supplying spares, IAF's SU-30 has only 50% serviceability and the main reason is availability of spares and then Russian jets are a maintenance nightmare. Thirdly Russians would never offer us Su-35 not before 2020 that too if relations continue to improve.
So believe me PAF would never have the Su-35 option that leaves us with J-11D and J-10. J-11D again has many Russian inputs and again is in the phase of maturing.

J 10B wont cost much china will give some consetion

We decided to buy J 10 in mushy visit to bug and lower the F 16 intial order from 72 to 18 almost 54 jet less but we dident get desired required jets in numbers and quality

I think J 10 is little cheaper than F 16 52 brand new and J 10 weapons are also cheap than amraam etc and of same quality

 

[Super Falcon]

@Zarvan It Depends on How Fare they are Willing to Go and Invest in JF 17 If in near future , because it can be a really capable Jet But For That Few major upgrades JF 17 need is radar , Engine , Materials used to make airframe But this will also make it expensive but will also enhance Bird About the numbers 250 If you see the current Induction Time its sort of Slow if China jumps this can improve the timing and also reduce the cast too

@A2Z @King of Hearts Collaborating its not that simple and cheap specially on the 5th gen jet RD takes time and Money Which Pakistan Didn't have and even now they go run around and spend on pdf wish list jf 17 which is a economy go 20m+ and price will go up all the 5th gen jets cost almost around 100 million Honestly tell me Can Pakistan afford 50 100m jets in the current economy ? thats just the jet price no training cast nothing . No Sir they cant
About J 10b Pakistan kept that option because of MRCA if india went for those jets Pakistan needed some thing to balance power in SA .but india didnt got anything But If You see Pakistan induct a full squadron of f 16s which saved alot of time and money and changed the game for PAF dont see these birds as just 13 birds but how much time they saved and gave operational capability ASAP unlike if Pakistan went for something new
Chinese 5th gen jets Wont be fully available for PAF before 2022+ F7PGS and mirage these jets Can Still get the job done and wont see these birds leaving before 2025 Because India Does have a large number of Migs in Service too , so to keep balance they need these jets as far as New platform PAF wont go for it until dont get new jets

@Super Falcon Buying one of the best dog fighter in history is stupidity ? J10b is a new platform would have take a little time for Fly boys to get use to and Kargil and 71 was past get over it , Mistakes happen Even Now with Best Tech Available You cant be 100% sure

Yes but atleast you give a chance even if you are not 100 percent sure it dont justify you keep your hands closed do nothing

If you cant learn from mistakes you cannot prevail in war PAF doing this over and over again

With threats from many nations IAF itching to intrude pakistan land growing indian naval ships and air arm our PAF is low in fighter jets and of quality

If it was the case you operate two type of jets to cheap type thinking whu usa russia china india all operate different type of jet
And all of them have air superiority jet

I agree we are not as big as these nation nor in economy and force

But magnitude of challanges and enemies we are at top most nation threats from india afghanistan and other agencies around the world

Stronger airforce will give caution to any adversaries to pakistan

In 1983 when we had F 16 which was peak fighter jet at that era one of the best at that time india never violated our air space regularly they were afraid of PAF

STRONG AIRFORCE IS GURANTEE OF PEACE AND STABILITY IN POWER OF THIS REGION

weaker airforce will bring misery to pak history says it in kargil and 71 war so learn from mistakes rather than presenting our selfes in plate to india and playing into indian hands

 

[Darth Vader]

Yes but atleast you give a chance even if you are not 100 percent sure it dont justify you keep your hands closed do nothing

If you cant learn from mistakes you cannot prevail in war PAF doing this over and over again

With threats from many nations IAF itching to intrude pakistan land growing indian naval ships and air arm our PAF is low in fighter jets and of quality

If it was the case you operate two type of jets to cheap type thinking whu usa russia china india all operate different type of jet
And all of them have air superiority jet

I agree we are not as big as these nation nor in economy and force

But magnitude of challanges and enemies we are at top most nation threats from india afghanistan and other agencies around the world

Stronger airforce will give caution to any adversaries to pakistan

In 1983 when we had F 16 which was peak fighter jet at that era one of the best at that time india never violated our air space regularly they were afraid of PAF

STRONG AIRFORCE IS GURANTEE OF PEACE AND STABILITY IN POWER OF THIS REGION

weaker airforce will bring misery to pak history says it in kargil and 71 war so learn from mistakes rather than presenting our selfes in plate to india and playing into indian hands

PAF is Not That Weak if you want me to repeat again and again em not up for that
Its Not 71 or Kargil
But Even Current Force is Capable Enough To counter any indian Move , in the current geo politics India is the Only biggest Enemy Pakistan Can see , Nothing is 100 % Even if you have best System Available`you wont be sure war is game of luck yes it does give you edge how you use others weakness for your benefits , You Keep Saying Stupidity Would you Enlight me What Makes you so superior that you are calling them stupid who are using these funds in the best possible way , are you part or were part of any force which gives you superior knowledge which the stupid PAF Doesnt have ?

 

[Super Falcon]

PAF is Not That Weak if you want me to repeat again and again em not up for that
Its Not 71 or Kargil
But Even Current Force is Capable Enough To counter any indian Move , in the current geo politics India is the Only biggest Enemy Pakistan Can see , Nothing is 100 % Even if you have best System Available`you wont be sure war is game of luck yes it does give you edge how you use others weakness for your benefits , You Keep Saying Stupidity Would you Enlight me What Makes you so superior that you are calling them stupid who are using these funds in the best possible way , are you part or were part of any force which gives you superior knowledge which the stupid PAF Doesnt have ?

On basis of mistakes in kargil and 71 made me say this and cutrently sorry we cant
We have 99 F 16 and 50+JF 17 and few Mirages

IAF 250 SU 30, 100 Mig 29K, 50 Mirage 2000,and Rafale and PAK FA in few years

Please tell me how our F 16 and thunder counter these jets in numbers 3 to 1 and quality similar or better

How PAF counter PAKFA

If your answer id J 20

Than IAF will get PAKFA by 2020 and we waited for J10B just to fully develop yet not ordering when it is developed J 20 can get in china airforce by 2020 but as our thinking of PAF we will wait till 2025 to decide and need 2 more years to final order to induction 2030 will arrive

Yes im not expert neither in airforce not me neither my last 7 generation of family has any info on airforce but i do not mean you cannot have knowledge

And Sense should prevail reality is you cannot destroy Fighter jet 3 to 1 and in quality they are at par but in numbers they win

Im not saying we buy mire jers but buy 30 to 50 SU 35 and you are goid to go for next 15 years well untill we get J 31

J 10B is also good if we get 36 looks good
99 F 16
36 J 10B
36 SU 35
100 JF 17

Will bring more options to PAF on table and can defend our skies bettef than today fleet india will never dare to cross our airspace

Renember PAF enjoyed quality in past than IAF numbers in past

But now we are acking numbers and quality focusing on one type of jet is stupidity in war

Today airlines in wirld cant rely on one type of supplier but 2 to 3 different types if suppliers
Im not comparing airline to airforce

But different platform bring different options

If we rely on F 16 And JF 17 once IAF got weakness of these jets we are gone with different type of jets they tend to cover each others weaknesses which bring doubts in IAF pilots minds how to counter different type of jets if they have F 16 weak point SU 35 cover it since they work on it they get killed

Yes im stupid because i want PAF to be sensible rather than waiting for misery in future and become pro active rather than reactive which PAF is

And after misery people like you dont talk

And death. vader do u have any agenda always to oppose me when most people agree with me on topic and yet you disagree

 

[Darth Vader]

On basis of mistakes in kargil and 71 made me say this and cutrently sorry we cant
We have 99 F 16 and 50+JF 17 and few Mirages

IAF 250 SU 30, 100 Mig 29K, 50 Mirage 2000,and Rafale and PAK FA in few years

Please tell me how our F 16 and thunder counter these jets in numbers 3 to 1 and quality similar or better

How PAF counter PAKFA

If your answer id J 20

Than IAF will get PAKFA by 2020 and we waited for J10B just to fully develop yet not ordering when it is developed J 20 can get in china airforce by 2020 but as our thinking of PAF we will wait till 2025 to decide and need 2 more years to final order to induction 2030 will arrive

Yes im not expert neither in airforce not me neither my last 7 generation of family has any info on airforce but i do not mean you cannot have knowledge

And Sense should prevail reality is you cannot destroy Fighter jet 3 to 1 and in quality they are at par but in numbers they win

Im not saying we buy mire jers but buy 30 to 50 SU 35 and you are goid to go for next 15 years well untill we get J 31

J 10B is also good if we get 36 looks good
99 F 16
36 J 10B
36 SU 35
100 JF 17

Will bring more options to PAF on table and can defend our skies bettef than today fleet india will never dare to cross our airspace

Renember PAF enjoyed quality in past than IAF numbers in past

But now we are acking numbers and quality focusing on one type of jet is stupidity in war

Today airlines in wirld cant rely on one type of supplier but 2 to 3 different types if suppliers
Im not comparing airline to airforce

But different platform bring different options

If we rely on F 16 And JF 17 once IAF got weakness of these jets we are gone with different type of jets they tend to cover each others weaknesses which bring doubts in IAF pilots minds how to counter different type of jets if they have F 16 weak point SU 35 cover it since they work on it they get killed

Yes im stupid because i want PAF to be sensible rather than waiting for misery in future and become pro active rather than reactive which PAF is

And after misery people like you dont talk

And death. vader do u have any agenda always to oppose me when most people agree with me on topic and yet you disagree

Will Start From The Last Point i d k what you mean by em always opposing you ? I dont even post that much only reply which are worth replying Seriously agenda yup i was sent by aliens to destroy humans by opposing you now jokes aside
Pakistan will Always be a defensive offensive force , Let me share few points With You
All Forces Develop their strategies according to the conditions and they enemies they are facing
Indian Cant Deploy all its force just to Face Pakistan Will till Few years Back Did have that advantage
Yes Pakistan need Birds ASAP but keeping Few capable jets instead of keep loads of different gives you few benefits in war 1st they are easy to maintain , more fly sorties cheaper , list goes on and on in all around it gives you better performance when you need it at its most
I m all ok with the wishlist it will better if we get f22s f 35s , f18s but not gone happen
Its not World War 2 Were you only can depend on jets to hit inner states of a country for that Pakistan have Different Weapons
In Current scenario Pakistan Only Needs Few Good Sams AWACS and Change Older aircrafts with JF 17s ASAP
just replacing these ageing crafts with thunder Will give you huge boost , Unlike for jumping on different platform Pakistan can develop thunder even more into a really capable craft all the things you Fan boys want can come into this same package , Just Need to put a small capable aesa and some more materials into air frame , which will help air frame to take more loadout

f 16 is a more of a striker for Pakistan To keep Tech Gap in check with India , and keep counter the invaders its not some Video game where who deploy most Soldiers will win nop my friend and IAF Wont be deploying all these Birds Yes thunder cant beat these birds alone but when they are in Pakistan territory they will be Facing AWACS , SAMS , Different Birds it wont be just BVR mostly it will be WVR in which Pakistani older crafts will also come in play
,Thunder will cover the older jets
AS Pakistan have ageing aircraft so does india and those are more in numbers and in near future that gap will also come down As for Now Pakistan is trying to bring the new fighters instead of just waiting, JF 17 is the best option they have now

 

[Super Falcon]

Will Start From The Last Point i d k what you mean by em always opposing you ? I dont even post that much only reply which are worth replying Seriously agenda yup i was sent by aliens to destroy humans by opposing you now jokes aside
Pakistan will Always be a defensive offensive force , Let me share few points With You
All Forces Develop their strategies according to the conditions and they enemies they are facing
Indian Cant Deploy all its force just to Face Pakistan Will till Few years Back Did have that advantage
Yes Pakistan need Birds ASAP but keeping Few capable jets instead of keep loads of different gives you few benefits in war 1st they are easy to maintain , more fly sorties cheaper , list goes on and on in all around it gives you better performance when you need it at its most
I m all ok with the wishlist it will better if we get f22s f 35s , f18s but not gone happen
Its not World War 2 Were you only can depend on jets to hit inner states of a country for that Pakistan have Different Weapons
In Current scenario Pakistan Only Needs Few Good Sams AWACS and Change Older aircrafts with JF 17s ASAP
just replacing these ageing crafts with thunder Will give you huge boost , Unlike for jumping on different platform Pakistan can develop thunder even more into a really capable craft all the things you Fan boys want can come into this same package , Just Need to put a small capable aesa and some more materials into air frame , which will help air frame to take more loadout

f 16 is a more of a striker for Pakistan To keep Tech Gap in check with India , and keep counter the invaders its not some Video game where who deploy most Soldiers will win nop my friend and IAF Wont be deploying all these Birds Yes thunder cant beat these birds alone but when they are in Pakistan territory they will be Facing AWACS , SAMS , Different Birds it wont be just BVR mostly it will be WVR in which Pakistani older crafts will also come in play
,Thunder will cover the older jets
AS Pakistan have ageing aircraft so does india and those are more in numbers and in near future that gap will also come down As for Now Pakistan is trying to bring the new fighters instead of just waiting, JF 17 is the best option they have now

Best of luck with your theory if a cycle can win a air war i will buy cycle not caf hope and wish that your theory works in war we dont need to buy a car thanks looking forward.

And JF 17 can never be Air superiority fighter jet no matter what even u put all tech of F 22 still its airfrane and its avionics will remain same and with that size and wingspan it cannot do what air superiority jet does it secures your AIRSPACE at other hand Multirole jets can do air superiority job but not efectively against true air superiority jet

 

[A2Z]

J 10B wont cost much china will give some consetion

We decided to buy J 10 in mushy visit to bug and lower the F 16 intial order from 72 to 18 almost 54 jet less but we dident get desired required jets in numbers and quality

I think J 10 is little cheaper than F 16 52 brand new and J 10 weapons are also cheap than amraam etc and of same quality

OK agreed that J-10's weapons package is cheaper than F-16's but what about the training that we would need? JF-17 is part of PAF since 2007 and yet we have not developed complete tactics for it in fact it was recently when it was inducted in airschool to develop tactics and train pilots accordingly.

Its not that I am against J-10, infact when we talk about network centric warfare then J-10 is more ideal for us because we can connect them with our chinese AWACS something not possible with F-16 as USA would never allow that. The fact is that our airforce is very much satisfied with F-16s and are of opinion that we don't need J-10 until and unless our adversary goes for Rafale or something of that caliber. Even our former airchief has said this in an interview that at the moment we don't require another 4th or 4.5th gen platform. As a matter of fact if we go for J-10 in future I would like it to be J-10C and at-least 150 of them.

 

[Super Falcon]

OK agreed that J-10's weapons package is cheaper than F-16's but what about the training that we would need? JF-17 is part of PAF since 2007 and yet we have not developed complete tactics for it in fact it was recently when it was inducted in airschool to develop tactics and train pilots accordingly.

Its not that I am against J-10, infact when we talk about network centric warfare then J-10 is more ideal for us because we can connect them with our chinese AWACS something not possible with F-16 as USA would never allow that. The fact is that our airforce is very much satisfied with F-16s and are of opinion that we don't need J-10 until and unless our adversary goes for Rafale or something of that caliber. Even our former airchief has said this in an interview that at the moment we don't require another 4th or 4.5th gen platform. As a matter of fact if we go for J-10 in future I would like it to be J-10C and at-least 150 of them.

Bhai when we get F 16 the same issue hapened but these small things dont mean that u dont move forward if other airforces think like u for training tactics fighter jet industry would been closed after ww2

 

[New World]

we don't need J-10 until and unless our adversary goes for Rafale or something of that caliber

what if India cancel Rafale order and order more Su-30 MKI's than?? right now more than 230 are in service out of 272 and 40 are also on order and if they order more 40 mki than??

 

[A2Z]

what if India cancel Rafale order and order more Su-30 MKI's than?? right now more than 230 are in service out of 272 and 40 are also on order and if they order more 40 mki than??

MKI is not as big of a treat as Rafale. It is a huge fighter with very large RCS, with a sightly improved radar thunder and F-16 wil easily pick it up before it picks them. Another factor that is in PAF's favor is MKI has very low serviceability this means IAF will only be able to deploy only a fraction of MKIs against Pakistan. However if they are able to get Rafale then the game would change as Rafale is something next level as compared to MKI.