China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan

[Zarvan]

We already living in delaying our selfes first J 10 and induction of 250 J F 17 to 150

Currently war fought in air who have beter fire piwer in Air win war

Abd what gurantee you have with history of our stupid PAF mindset what they did with J 10 deal

Give you a small look in past

When mushy went to US to buy F 16 intial order was 72 F 16 fighter jets than they lowered it to 36 than again to 18 F 16 only out of 72 and ordered 36 J 10

Neither we got those 54 F 16 out of 72 Ordered nor 36 J 10

We are having big hole In Paf both in jets and sam systems

Paf currently digging grave for itself and entire nation with mindboggling induction

When entire world looking forward we keep looking backwards

I have told you several times that PAF will induct 250 JF-17 not 150.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

???? Do you know the rules of engagements on the border???? Just so you know, there is an agreement that in peacetime (which unfortunately it is, even with shelling from both sides), aircraft, if by mistake get to the border, each side will give them the benefit of the doubt and will allow them to turn around.

So up to 5 KM's for jets are considered normal. For the heli's, there would be a limit much smaller than the jets obviously as the chopper can turn within a few hundred feet, but the jets require a few KM's at the least, due to their speed.

So this right here, is like 200-300 feet, which is a human walking for 2-3 minutes? Choppers are much bigger and obviously have speed. So if the pilot really tried to stop and messed up in getting directions from his GPS, its normal to skip the border by a couple of hundred feet. It shouldn't happen every day, but its not a sign of an attack or something.

At this level, the first responsibility lies on the SAM systems and shoulder mount AD units. The PAF has nothing to do with a helicopter coming in 100 feet and going back. Please don't bash the PAF!!

just want to clarify that PAF does operate SAM systems at important locations including near the borders (in some cases flight time from take off to target is on average 3 to 5 minutes only). PAF has Forward observation posts who look out for such threats themselves and signal their command of incoming potential threat. Army air defence has its own setup in addition to that and they all in the end report back to air defence command.

sometimes the early warning is as simple and unassuming as a person with binoculars with a radio set to communicate any suspicious air activity

 

[vizier]

For frontline long range sams are not necessary pantsyr equivalent systems and interceptors can fill that gap. But for nuke sites and airbases lack of high altitude sams means calling the enemy to drop bombs from high altitude. Hq 16 and others are good against low altitude cruise missiles but cant reach high. Sa-2 variant old systems cant track many targets and is easy to evade and jam. Also lack of ballistic missile early waning radar like greenpine radar would tempt opponents to launch ballistics first in a conflict. China or even Iran facing israel bms should have that type of radar opt for whichever you like to satisfy urgent needs until you develop yours later.

 

[HAIDER]

J-10 fighter jets: Pakistan may be China’s first customer

A military expert revealed on Tuesday that Pakistan may be the first buyer of China’s J-10 fighter jet which was initially set to be sold to Iran after the lifting of UN sanctions.
J-10 fighter jets: Pakistan may be China’s first customer - The Express Tribune

 

[A2Z]

We already living in delaying our selfes first J 10 and induction of 250 J F 17 to 150

Currently war fought in air who have beter fire piwer in Air win war

Abd what gurantee you have with history of our stupid PAF mindset what they did with J 10 deal

Give you a small look in past

When mushy went to US to buy F 16 intial order was 72 F 16 fighter jets than they lowered it to 36 than again to 18 F 16 only out of 72 and ordered 36 J 10

Neither we got those 54 F 16 out of 72 Ordered nor 36 J 10

We are having big hole In Paf both in jets and sam systems

Paf currently digging grave for itself and entire nation with mindboggling induction

When entire world looking forward we keep looking backwards

Well I'm not defending the mistakes that we have made in the past, the points you have quoted are valid and if we have gone for 72 F-16 and 36 J-10A(that was what was offered as J-10B was in development?) our airforce would have been way more strong than it is right now. Nor am I against J-10B it is something that is better than anything we have in our inventory right now. But my point is:

1) If we had gone for that order, would we have been able to pour money in thunder program? Instead of 54 F-16 we have 50+ JF17 which I know is not as advanced and lethal as F-16 but something that we own and is tailor made as per our requirements plus we don't have to worry about spares and has played a role in maturing our aviation industry.

2) IMO what is more important for PAF right now is to get in collaboration with Chinese in one of their 5th generation program like we did in JF-17's case. In the mean time we can focus on SAM systems as it is as important, cheaper and easy to induct.

 

[CHI RULES]

Well I'm not defending the mistakes that we have made in the past, the points you have quoted are valid and if we have gone for 72 F-16 and 36 J-10A(that was what was offered as J-10B was in development?) our airforce would have been way more strong than it is right now. Nor am I against J-10B it is something that is better than anything we have in our inventory right now. But my point is:

1) If we had gone for that order, would we have been able to pour money in thunder program? Instead of 54 F-16 we have 50+ JF17 which I know is not as advanced and lethal as F-16 but something that we own and is tailor made as per our requirements plus we don't have to worry about spares and has played a role in maturing our aviation industry.

2) IMO what is more important for PAF right now is to get in collaboration with Chinese in one of their 5th generation program like we did in JF-17's case. In the mean time we can focus on SAM systems as it is as important, cheaper and easy to induct.

 

[aliyusuf]

I think we are emphasizing too much on the 5th Gen fighter acquisition.

In the case of the JF-17/FC-1, we had a good operational knowledge base of 4th Gen western fighters (mainly F-16s) to provide valuable inputs to the Thunder program. What collaboration or inputs can we provide on the 5th Gen fighter development program apart from money? Which, unfortunately, is in short supply at the moment. So that collaboration may not start any time soon as stealth programs are much much costlier than programs for fighters like the Thunder. Even the body (empty fuselage, wings and tail fins) is more costly compared to the conventional fighters of same size. Also the acquisition of fighters in this manner cost way more than buying something that is already under production and preferably in service somewhere.

What 5th Gen Options Do We Have?

Members here are predicting/hoping the induction of something like the J-31. Lets study whatever we know about its specs.

It is roughly the same size as the F-35 ... in fact marginally bigger. It has two engines whereas the F-35 has one. The F-35 can carry 2 X AMRAAM-120s, 4 X AIM-9s and 2 X 2000 lbs bombs internally. Anything more will have to be carried under the wings and the plane becomes non-stealthy. This issue is further compounded on the J-31. Since it has 2 X engines, there is less free internal space available. This plane can carry only 4 X AAMs internally ... and that's all. For air to ground role it will have to carry its munitions under the wing ... there goes its stealthiness. Furthermore it can carry slightly more than half the internal fuel as the F-35 (which does not have long legs itself). The Grey Falcon is going to be seriously short legged and will depend much more on aerial refueling than other planes. I am not saying that this plane is going to go up against the F-35 but just trying to highlight the issues that it is going to present (more severely) than those which are already being discussed unfavorably about the F-35. This fighter has a lot of issues to be ironed out and I don't realistically see it coming before 2025 .. if at all we choose it to be our 5th Gen solution.

The only other alternative will be the J-20. Which will be quite costly to acquire and even costlier to operate. Even if China agrees to sell this fighter to Pakistan ... that will only happen after sufficient numbers have been inducted into the PLAAF. I don't see even this happening before 2025.

Can the JF-17 block-III standard and F-16s soldier on till 2025 without further compromising the capability gap viz-a-viz the IAF?

Other member's opinion on what I have just stated will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Cornered Tiger]

You are very right @aliyusuf . I agree totally. Adding to ur comments

We have nearly 150 F-7P and F-7PGs till today and we have nearly 120 or more aging Mirages, these all make up for 270 or more planes to be replace. we gonna add 100 or 150 JF-17s till 2020 or beyond and max 18 or 36 more F-16s. still we cannot make up for 270 aging planes. we definitely need a newer and agile platform to do the job, whatever u consider, 5th gen. planes are far away from reality, only 5th gen. are operational till now and we never get them. only choice for us are Chinese 5th gen. planes they are going to be operational not before 2018 or 2020.. till then we have to bring in a platform that can save precious lives of our pilots..

 

[Super Falcon]

Well I'm not defending the mistakes that we have made in the past, the points you have quoted are valid and if we have gone for 72 F-16 and 36 J-10A(that was what was offered as J-10B was in development?) our airforce would have been way more strong than it is right now. Nor am I against J-10B it is something that is better than anything we have in our inventory right now. But my point is:

1) If we had gone for that order, would we have been able to pour money in thunder program? Instead of 54 F-16 we have 50+ JF17 which I know is not as advanced and lethal as F-16 but something that we own and is tailor made as per our requirements plus we don't have to worry about spares and has played a role in maturing our aviation industry.

2) IMO what is more important for PAF right now is to get in collaboration with Chinese in one of their 5th generation program like we did in JF-17's case. In the mean time we can focus on SAM systems as it is as important, cheaper and easy to induct.

FRiend when we ordered 72 F 16 in mushy visit it means we had money why we lower the number becoz J 10 china ofered similar or better in capabilities and new fighter jet with canards and lower pricd tav witb reliable friend we waited and lower the F 16 to 18

When J 10B is fully devloped we did not got new J10

Instead of stupid thinking still buying old F 16 from jordan and upgrade them still it is old its main frame is old avionics too

If you combine the amount of F 16 from jordan and upgration in this price tag we can get new and far bettef J 10 ready to fly rather than upgrading and every part is brand new and waste range of weapins better in manuverability u ask J 10 beat F 16 for PAF in all aspect

But dont know why these stupid thinkers are fully commited to bring misery on ourselves like in kargil war they were sleeping not getting bvr tech beford jargil if we got that capability india would had been begging for peace anyway im just saying think tank of PAF is not trust wirthy as pakustani

Their main agenda is making PAF videos it chief flying F 16 and bombing terrorist who dont pise any threat to fighter jets they are good at it only in real war they do nothing no contribution

I was reading in 71 war PAF pilots destroyed the PN boat by mistakd as it was of IN

 

[Darth Vader]

@Zarvan It Depends on How Fare they are Willing to Go and Invest in JF 17 If in near future , because it can be a really capable Jet But For That Few major upgrades JF 17 need is radar , Engine , Materials used to make airframe But this will also make it expensive but will also enhance Bird About the numbers 250 If you see the current Induction Time its sort of Slow if China jumps this can improve the timing and also reduce the cast too

@A2Z @King of Hearts Collaborating its not that simple and cheap specially on the 5th gen jet RD takes time and Money Which Pakistan Didn't have and even now they go run around and spend on pdf wish list jf 17 which is a economy go 20m+ and price will go up all the 5th gen jets cost almost around 100 million Honestly tell me Can Pakistan afford 50 100m jets in the current economy ? thats just the jet price no training cast nothing . No Sir they cant
About J 10b Pakistan kept that option because of MRCA if india went for those jets Pakistan needed some thing to balance power in SA .but india didnt got anything But If You see Pakistan induct a full squadron of f 16s which saved alot of time and money and changed the game for PAF dont see these birds as just 13 birds but how much time they saved and gave operational capability ASAP unlike if Pakistan went for something new
Chinese 5th gen jets Wont be fully available for PAF before 2022+ F7PGS and mirage these jets Can Still get the job done and wont see these birds leaving before 2025 Because India Does have a large number of Migs in Service too , so to keep balance they need these jets as far as New platform PAF wont go for it until dont get new jets

@Super Falcon Buying one of the best dog fighter in history is stupidity ? J10b is a new platform would have take a little time for Fly boys to get use to and Kargil and 71 was past get over it , Mistakes happen Even Now with Best Tech Available You cant be 100% sure

 

[Zarvan]

@Zarvan It Depends on How Fare they are Willing to Go and Invest in JF 17 If in near future , because it can be a really capable Jet But For That Few major upgrades JF 17 need is radar , Engine , Materials used to make airframe But this will also make it expensive but will also enhance Bird About the numbers 250 If you see the current Induction Time its sort of Slow if China jumps this can improve the timing and also reduce the cast too

@A2Z @King of Hearts Collaborating its not that simple and cheap specially on the 5th gen jet RD takes time and Money Which Pakistan Didn't have and even now they go run around and spend on pdf wish list jf 17 which is a economy go 20m+ and price will go up all the 5th gen jets cost almost around 100 million Honestly tell me Can Pakistan afford 50 100m jets in the current economy ? thats just the jet price no training cast nothing . No Sir they cant
About J 10b Pakistan kept that option because of MRCA if india went for those jets Pakistan needed some thing to balance power in SA .but india didnt got anything But If You see Pakistan induct a full squadron of f 16s which saved alot of time and money and changed the game for PAF dont see these birds as just 13 birds but how much time they saved and gave operational capability ASAP unlike if Pakistan went for something new
Chinese 5th gen jets Wont be fully available for PAF before 2022+ F7PGS and mirage these jets Can Still get the job done and wont see these birds leaving before 2025 Because India Does have a large number of Migs in Service too , so to keep balance they need these jets as far as New platform PAF wont go for it until dont get new jets

@Super Falcon Buying one of the best dog fighter in history is stupidity ? J10b is a new platform would have take a little time for Fly boys to get use to and Kargil and 71 was past get over it , Mistakes happen Even Now with Best Tech Available You cant be 100% sure

What I know is Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform. I think Pakistan should prefer either J-11 D or SU-35

 

[princefaisal]

I think we are emphasizing too much on the 5th Gen fighter acquisition.

In the case of the JF-17/FC-1, we had a good operational knowledge base of 4th Gen western fighters (mainly F-16s) to provide valuable inputs to the Thunder program. What collaboration or inputs can we provide on the 5th Gen fighter development program apart from money? Which, unfortunately, is in short supply at the moment. So that collaboration may not start any time soon as stealth programs are much much costlier than programs for fighters like the Thunder. Even the body (empty fuselage, wings and tail fins) is more costly compared to the conventional fighters of same size. Also the acquisition of fighters in this manner cost way more than buying something that is already under production and preferably in service somewhere.

What 5th Gen Options Do We Have?

Members here are predicting/hoping the induction of something like the J-31. Lets study whatever we know about its specs.

It is roughly the same size as the F-35 ... in fact marginally bigger. It has two engines whereas the F-35 has one. The F-35 can carry 2 X AMRAAM-120s, 4 X AIM-9s and 2 X 2000 lbs bombs internally. Anything more will have to be carried under the wings and the plane becomes non-stealthy. This issue is further compounded on the J-31. Since it has 2 X engines, there is less free internal space available. This plane can carry only 4 X AAMs internally ... and that's all. For air to ground role it will have to carry its munitions under the wing ... there goes its stealthiness. Furthermore it can carry slightly more than half the internal fuel as the F-35 (which does not have long legs itself). The Grey Falcon is going to be seriously short legged and will depend much more on aerial refueling than other planes. I am not saying that this plane is going to go up against the F-35 but just trying to highlight the issues that it is going to present (more severely) than those which are already being discussed unfavorably about the F-35. This fighter has a lot of issues to be ironed out and I don't realistically see it coming before 2025 .. if at all we choose it to be our 5th Gen solution.

The only other alternative will be the J-20. Which will be quite costly to acquire and even costlier to operate. Even if China agrees to sell this fighter to Pakistan ... that will only happen after sufficient numbers have been inducted into the PLAAF. I don't see even this happening before 2025.

Can the JF-17 block-III standard and F-16s soldier on till 2025 without further compromising the capability gap viz-a-viz the IAF?

Other member's opinion on what I have just stated will be greatly appreciated.

So there is a gap of 10 years, after which J-31 or J-20 will be inducted. But this 10 year gap should be filled with Su-35, J-11D or J-10C.

 

[Darth Vader]

What I know is Pakistan is looking for third 4.5th Generation platform. I think Pakistan should prefer either J-11 D or SU-35

Wont See any Twin Fighter Joining PAF in near 5 years , And For SU 35 , i Really dont Know After that Offer Everyone is Jumping For Su 35 , Yes its a great platform but Many things come into Play Pakistan will be keeping Western , Chinese , Russian Jets , Simply maintaining so many diverse platforms will be problem because we have to keep that in my mind in near future PAF will try to go for 5th Gen and try to save that money from 4.5 Gen jet and will see more F 16s nd 17 In PAF colours and keeping all these birds in one network will also be something , because all these birds use different networks and in current gene warfare those force which is more networked centred will have more chance to win

So there is a gap of 10 years, after which J-31 or J-20 will be inducted. But this 10 year gap should be filled with Su-35, J-11D or J-10C.

Since They Are Buying All these Birds Few F 22 , F 18s Wont be a problem

 

[CHI RULES]

Wont See any Twin Fighter Joining PAF in near 5 years , And For SU 35 , i Really dont Know After that Offer Everyone is Jumping For Su 35 , Yes its a great platform but Many things come into Play Pakistan will be keeping Western , Chinese , Russian Jets , Simply maintaining so many diverse platforms will be problem because we have to keep that in my mind in near future PAF will try to go for 5th Gen and try to save that money from 4.5 Gen jet and will see more F 16s nd 17 In PAF colours and keeping all these birds in one network will also be something , because all these birds use different networks and in current gene warfare those force which is more networked centred will have more chance to win


Since They Are Buying All these Birds Few F 22 , F 18s Wont be a problem

Pak may go for same engine for Jf17and future Chinese Single/Twin engine jet and even for J31 if inducted this will solve the problem in much better way. Further cheap old F16s will almost cost after upgarde equal to new J10b with strings and no upgrades regarding AESA/IRST which are must for future warfare. Even Pak F16s block 52 will be almost useless after few Years. Instead of filling numbers we also have to maintain some sort of long term deterrence.

Russian jets in the past prove to be mostly ineffective against Western Jets in the past, simalrly having issues like downgraded versions, maintenance reliability, further India may easily tackle Su 35 with the back end help from Russia.
So big no for Russian Jet. At best if Pak gets them then they should be upgraded with Chinese Techs.

 

[vizier]

Since India rafale deal is cancelled they would most probably go for more Sukhois. Also a counter punch maybe by Russian influence of France not transferring the mistral ship to Russia. By the way J10 B has radar cross section reduction measures like inlet modification similar to JF 17. It can match for everything that India can come up with. Also with its capabilities and reasonable price it would suit your fleet as well with indirectly financing China for J31 type of projects at the same time.
Also there should be some budget to allocate to improve air defences at strategic locations urgently in my opinion instead of spending fully to acquire used aircraft or a small number of ultra expensive 4.5 gens.