China Civil Aviation, AVIC (MA600) & COMAC (ARJ21/C919/C929)

[LKJ86]

You think EU and US will give export licences for engines if COMAC was as good as Airbus or Boeing?
That would be economic suicide for them.
Anyway by the time China catches up(circa 2040) with the West, it's engine tech will have caught up anyway.

Of course, we will and must use our own engines.
But in the near future, it will not be an issue to C919.

 

[UKBengali]

Of course, we will and must use our own engines.
But in the near future, it will not be an issue to C919.

1st gen Chinese jet engines for C919 will not be as fuel efficient or as reliable as Western engines.
China has a good 2-3 decades before it's engine tech catches up with the West.

 

[LKJ86]

1st gen Chinese jet engines for C919 will not be as fuel efficient or as reliable as Western engines.
China has a good 2-3 decades before it's engine tech catches up with the West.

We use our huge domestic market to develop our aviation industry, unlike Canada, Brazil, and Japan.
Even though our engines are not good enough, it is not a big issue.

 

[nang2]

C919 is used for civil use, so there are no such restrictions on it.

So was ZTE. The competition is not just between two countries. It is between two economic systems. China cannot win by fighting alone.

 

[Deino]

C919 is used for civil use, so there are no such restrictions on it.

By the way, that might surely be a fact, but are there considerations for the C919 as a VIP airliner for example replacing the A319 and B737?

 

[LKJ86]

By the way, that might surely be a fact, but are there considerations for the C919 as a VIP airliner for example replacing the A319 and B737?

It is our jetton in trade war.

 

[LKJ86]

So was ZTE.

I understand what you mean.
The restrictions from outside will push us to do better, otherwise there will be no room to live.

 

[UKBengali]

We use our huge domestic market to develop our aviation industry, unlike Canada, Brazil, and Japan.
Even though our engines are not good enough, it is not a big issue.

Like I say China will lose money at first by subsidising the inefficient Chinese planes but will get there in the end.
China is large and rich enough to develop Comac into a real competitor to Airbus and Boeing.

 

[lcloo]

I think the term "Inefficient Chinese planes" is a pre-maturely thought, as we still do not have flight performance data available. Let's wait for the test flights completed before affirmative conclusion be made.

 

[UKBengali]

I think the term "Inefficient Chinese planes" is a pre-maturely thought, as we still do not have flight performance data available. Let's wait for the test flights completed before affirmative conclusion be made.

No it is not. This can be deduced by China's lack of experience in the field.

Anyone that really thinks that China can design and make airplane wings(most complex part of aircraft) like Boeing and Airbus can, needs to be put in a mental asylum. As an example of China's lack of confidence in it's wing tech, the C929 joint-project between China and Russia will have the wings designed by the Russians. China will design the much easier fuselage of the plane. ARJ-21 wings are designed by Ukraine and so the C919 will be the first commercial jet where China will design the complex wings by itself.

One Chinese poster talked about China being ahead in terms of 3d printing tech and this can make up for lack of composites and general design of the planes. How much that China is ahead in terms of tech remains to be seen and I am sure that Boeing and Airbus will soon catch up with China in this field.

I am almost 100% certain that the C919 will be somewhere between a A330CEO and a A350 in terms of efficiency. Still this is pretty good as it means that China will be around 20 years behind Airbus and Boeing in terms of tech.

 

[055_destroyer]

No it is not. This can be deduced by China's lack of experience in the field.

Anyone that really thinks that China can design and make airplane wings(most complex part of aircraft) like Boeing and Airbus can, needs to be put in a mental asylum. As an example of China's lack of confidence in it's wing tech, the C929 joint-project between China and Russia will have the wings designed by the Russians. China will design the much easier fuselage of the plane. ARJ-21 wings are designed by Ukraine and so the C919 will be the first commercial jet where China will design the complex wings by itself.

One Chinese poster talked about China being ahead in terms of 3d printing tech and this can make up for lack of composites and general design of the planes. How much that China is ahead in terms of tech remains to be seen and I am sure that Boeing and Airbus will soon catch up with China in this field.

I am almost 100% certain that the C919 will be somewhere between a A330CEO and a A350 in terms of efficiency. Still this is pretty good as it means that China will be around 20 years behind Airbus and Boeing in terms of tech.

I dont think Chinese is behind in terms of aero design. The fact, J-20 a stealth design being operational puts it further ahead of most experience established western aeronautical firm. The huge investment put in by Chinese government in facilities and talent are true. The largest wind tunnel and the most sophisticated super computer helps Chinese designer verify and general data must faster than most peers.

As for CR929, its more like Russian begging Chinese for partnership. As demonstrated by C919 which is virtually a project design solely handle by Chinese themselves. Russian lacking the funds, market and facilities will better off partner with the Chinese to at least get a share of Chinese market.

 

[UKBengali]

I dont think Chinese is behind in terms of aero design. The fact, J-20 a stealth design being operational puts it further ahead of most experience established western aeronautical firm. The huge investment put in by Chinese government in facilities and talent are true. The largest wind tunnel and the most sophisticated super computer helps Chinese designer verify and general data must faster than most peers.

As for CR929, its more like Russian begging Chinese for partnership. As demonstrated by C919 which is virtually a project design solely handle by Chinese themselves. Russian lacking the funds, market and facilities will better off partner with the Chinese to at least get a share of Chinese market.

Dude, J-20 is not the same as building a civilian commercial airliner.

You are free to believe what you want to belief.

 

[055_destroyer]

Dude, J-20 is not the same as building a civilian commercial airliner.

You are free to believe what you want to belief.

In fact building a 5th gen J-20 is even more difficult than building an airliner. Russia and France(airbus) both with extensive years of building airliner struggle to come up with a workable 5th gen fighter. Russia Su-57 is given up eventually after the technical hurdle to clear is too much to bear. While France, dont even have the know how for how to make a 5th gen , dont even attempt one cos the difficulties are too much. While China succeed with 5th gen.

China is late to airliner, not becos of lacking the know how but more becos of the politics and policy in the past that prevents it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Y-10

As for what happened to Y-10 were purely due to political and economic development priorities during that time.

China started airliner development at the same time with airbus. What is even more commendable , it is design and develop when China industries technical were very primitive. Fast forward to 2017, with powerful supercomputer, world class wind tunnel. China is even in a more favourable position to easily make a world beater airliner. Remember C919 is the first truly state supported airliner project. ARJ-21 is initial by the private sector of China and is not considered , the first truly China endorsed airliner project.

I am very sure C919 is a very competitive design which rivals Boeing and Airbus. Even without Russia, China can easily handle CR929 development and design. Its more of a strategic gesture, China accept Russia into the CR 929 project and sub out a few parts for Russian to be involved merely as a symbol of Sino-Russian collaboration.

 

[UKBengali]

In fact building a 5th gen J-20 is even more difficult than building an airliner. Russia and France(airbus) both with extensive years of building airliner struggle to come up with a workable 5th gen fighter. Russia Su-57 is given up eventually after the technical hurdle to clear is too much to bear. While France, dont even have the know how for how to make a 5th gen , dont even attempt one cos the difficulties are too much. While China succeed with 5th gen.

China is late to airliner, not becos of lacking the know how but more becos of the politics and policy in the past that prevents it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Y-10

As for what happened to Y-10 were purely due to political and economic development priorities during that time.

China started airliner development at the same time with airbus. What is even more commendable , it is design and develop when China industries technical were very primitive. Fast forward to 2017, with powerful supercomputer, world class wind tunnel. China is even in a more favourable position to easily make a world beater airliner. Remember C919 is the first truly state supported airliner project. ARJ-21 is initial by the private sector of China and is not considered , the first truly China endorsed airliner project.

I am very sure C919 is a very competitive design which rivals Boeing and Airbus. Even without Russia, China can easily handle CR929 development and design. Its more of a strategic gesture, China accept Russia into the CR 929 project and sub out a few parts for Russian to be involved merely as a symbol of Sino-Russian collaboration.

Russia does not have the tech or money to develop 5th generation fighter.
France has partnered with Germany to build 5th
gen fighter for the 2030s. It did not need to build a 5th gen fighter earlier as it had 4.5gen Rafale.

Russia is designing and building the wings for C929, which is the most difficult part.
China does not think it can make a good enough C929 without Russian technical expertise.

China has come a long way but it is around 2 decades behind Boeing and Airbus IMO.

 

[lcloo]

No it is not. This can be deduced by China's lack of experience in the field.

Anyone that really thinks that China can design and make airplane wings(most complex part of aircraft) like Boeing and Airbus can, needs to be put in a mental asylum. As an example of China's lack of confidence in it's wing tech, the C929 joint-project between China and Russia will have the wings designed by the Russians. China will design the much easier fuselage of the plane. ARJ-21 wings are designed by Ukraine and so the C919 will be the first commercial jet where China will design the complex wings by itself.

One Chinese poster talked about China being ahead in terms of 3d printing tech and this can make up for lack of composites and general design of the planes. How much that China is ahead in terms of tech remains to be seen and I am sure that Boeing and Airbus will soon catch up with China in this field.

I am almost 100% certain that the C919 will be somewhere between a A330CEO and a A350 in terms of efficiency. Still this is pretty good as it means that China will be around 20 years behind Airbus and Boeing in terms of tech.

Without any concrete data, one's statement at best is just a perception influenced by his exposure to reading materials available on internets or in printing, which again, are mainly opinions as no data are available since the data shall be derived from actions (flight tests and ground tests) which are only partially completed and have not yet been disclosed to any outside party.

As I said, let's wait for the flight performance data be made available before a solid conclusion could be made.