China, Argentina set for defence collaboration, Malvinas-class OPV deal

[Infra_Man99]

Slow, leaky, rusty: Britain's £10bn submarine beset by design flaws
Slow, leaky, rusty: Britain's £10bn submarine beset by design flaws | UK news | The Guardian

. . . .

The Royal Navy's new multibillion pound hunter-killer submarine, HMS Astute, has been beset by design and construction flaws that have raised doubts about its performance and potential safety.

The Guardian can reveal that Astute, the first of seven new submarines costing £9.75bn, has been unable to reach its intended top speed.

At the moment, the boat, heralded as the most sophisticated submarine ever built for the navy, cannot sprint to emergencies or away from an attack – an essential requirement for a hunter-killer boat.

It would also be incapable of keeping pace with the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers, which will be able to travel at more than 30 knots and need the submarines to protect them. One source told the Guardian the boat had a "V8 engine with a Morris Minor gearbox".

Other problems that have affected the boat in recent months include:

• Flooding during a routine dive that led to Astute performing an emergency surfacing.

• Corrosion even though the boat is essentially new.

• The replacement or moving of computer circuit boards because they did not meet safety standards.

• Concern over the instruments monitoring the nuclear reactor because the wrong type of lead was used.

• Questions being raised about the quality and installation of other pieces of equipment.

• Concern reported among some crew members about the Astute's pioneering periscope, that does not allow officers to look at the surface "live".

. . . .

Even though the boat has yet to start formal service, Astute – four years overdue and £2bn over budget – has been surrounded by controversy since it was first commissioned 15 years ago. In 2010, it was marooned off Skye, a calamity that led to its commander being removed from post. Last year a senior officer was shot dead by a junior member of the crew.

The Guardian has learned that during exercises off the east coast of the United States, a cap on one of the pipes that takes seawater from the back of the submarine to the reactor sprang a leak. A compartment began flooding with seawater, forcing the commander to surface immediately. Though nobody was hurt, an investigation revealed a cap was made from the wrong metal, even though construction records said the right metal had been installed.

. . . .

 

[cirr]

P18A（A for Argentina）

 

[帅的一匹]

UK is going down, the empire vanished long time ago.

If China do help Argentina, UK will be suffering.

 

[Beidou2020]

UK is going down, the empire vanished long time ago.

If China do help Argentina, UK will be suffering.

I think China needs to help Argentina build a powerful missile force.

 

[jhungary]

do any of you have any idea how much money Argentina soend on defence last year?

4.1 billions..

Unless China wanted to foro 20 billions of dollar for argentina, there are nothing they can do about anyone. They cant fight the brazilian, why do you think they have a chance against the Brits?

Whatever Chinese are selling the argue will simply say
"No puedo, no tengo mucho dinero"

 

[cnleio]

do any of you have any idea how much money Argentina soend on defence last year?

4.1 billions..

Unless China wanted to foro 20 billions of dollar for argentina, there are nothing they can do about anyone. They cant fight the brazilian, why do you think they have a chance against the Brits?

Whatever Chinese are selling the argue will simply say
"No puedo, no tengo mucho dinero"

EASY, bro ! We Chinese need Argentina's Wheat + Beef + Copper/Iron/Manganese/Aluminum ores ... the Argentina might not a rich developed country, but they have abundant agricultural & mineral resources and that can ex-trade with China.

Chinese earn USD from other developed nations, and Barter-Trade with rest developing nations. Get the cheaper raw material from Argentina, produce & sell goods to China market or West nations.

 

[jhungary]

EASY, bro ! We Chinese need Argentina's Wheat + Beef + Copper/Iron/Manganese/Aluminum ores ... the Argentina might not a rich developed country, but they have abundant agricultural & mineral resources and that can ex-trade with China.

Chinese earn USD from other developed nations, and Barter-Trade with rest developing nations. Get the cheaper raw material from Argentina, produce & sell goods to China market or West nations.

i know China could do the same deal with the russian than the argentinian, thats why I said 20 billions not 50 billions (The actual gap)

the problem is, what you are banking on is to get stuff like grain and fruit and so on for weapon, but do you know there is a limit for everything? You cant trade 5 billions worth of grain for 2 warship, do you know how much 5 billions worth of grain are? You would have more than enough for a few hundred millions for each item if you want to barter, but the high water mark for all you fan barter would not be more than 5 billions or so....and once you filled with argentina grain, ore and mineral, you wont go buy it from someone else...Hence, you are not actually earning USD for it..

As I said, unless China have a kind of deep pocket, they cant bump argentina into British level, at best they can look eye to eye with Brazil (Although i very much doubt that even) But lets be realistic, its not going to be half the British level...

am not saying China helping Argentina is a bad thing, but to a point they can make British regret? Well, thats a pretty big gun to jump, and we should be realistic....

 

[Shotgunner51]

EASY, bro ! We Chinese need Argentina's Wheat + Beef + Copper/Iron/Manganese/Aluminum ores ... the Argentina might not a rich developed country, but they have abundant agricultural & mineral resources and that can ex-trade with China.

Chinese earn USD from other developed nations, and Barter-Trade with rest developing nations. Get the cheaper raw material from Argentina, produce & sell goods to China market or West nations.

That's a good idea. China has enough USD anyway, now need commodities which Argentina has a lot.

i know China could do the same deal with the russian than the argentinian, thats why I said 20 billions not 50 billions (The actual gap)

the problem is, what you are banking on is to get stuff like grain and fruit and so on for weapon, but do you know there is a limit for everything? You cant trade 5 billions worth of grain for 2 warship, do you know how much 5 billions worth of grain are? You would have more than enough for a few hundred millions for each item if you want to barter, but the high water mark for all you fan barter would not be more than 5 billions or so....and once you filled with argentina grain, ore and mineral, you wont go buy it from someone else...Hence, you are not actually earning USD for it..

As I said, unless China have a kind of deep pocket, they cant bump argentina into British level, at best they can look eye to eye with Brazil (Although i very much doubt that even) But lets be realistic, its not going to be half the British level...

am not saying China helping Argentina is a bad thing, but to a point they can make British regret? Well, thats a pretty big gun to jump, and we should be realistic....

Don't over-hype this in relation with the Brits dude, China can't and won't interfere with their territorial dispute. China has no intention to arm Argentina in order to fight the Brits, neither does China will place arms embargo on Argentina for the sake of Brits. The Argie knows what they need, and if they can pay (in hard currency or acceptable commodities), China sells.

About the $4.1B you mentioned, yeah seems small budget. China's trade surplus in January 2015 hits $60B for 1 month. China doesn't need USD much, its needs commodities.
China trade surplus

 

[jhungary]

That's a good idea. China has enough USD anyway, now need commodities which Argentina has a lot.



Don't over-hype this in relation with the Brits dude, China can't and won't interfere with their territorial dispute. China has no intention to arm Argentina in order to fight the Brits, neither does China will place arms embargo on Argentina for the sake of Brits. The Argie knows what they need, and if they can pay (in hard currency or acceptable commodities), China sells.

lol, dude, I am the one actually advocating not to over-hype the relation between China and Argentine.

I am saying that China should help in the capacity that Argentina can afford, and should not look to bump anyone to counter anyone. It would be too costly for China to do that in the current situation and with literally nothing gain.

But it was the Chinese member here talking about China should help Argentina to a point where the UK will regret or suffer lol. I did not say that, go check a couple of post above us, I simply say we should all be realistic

 

[Shotgunner51]

lol, dude, I am the one actually advocating not to over-hype the relation between China and Argentine.

I am saying that China should help in the capacity that Argentina can afford, and should not look to bump anyone to counter anyone. It would be too costly for China to do that in the current situation and with literally nothing gain.

But it was the Chinese member here talking about China should help Argentina to a point where the UK will regret or suffer lol. I did not say that, go check a couple of post above us, I simply say we should all be realistic

Oh I didn't check sorry bro. Anyway you gotta understand the negative emotion here in China towards the Brits from other incident (I better not derail by mentioning the specific incident) so it's understandable that some individuals would like to arm the Argie as a retaliation to the Brits, just personal emotion. So we are all good here right? This arm deal has nothing to do with the Argie's territorial dispute with UK, at least from China's perspective.

Indeed the Argie air force need some modernization. It's a good opportunity for China and Argentina to work something out.

 

[Echo_419]

Slow, leaky, rusty: Britain's £10bn submarine beset by design flaws
Slow, leaky, rusty: Britain's £10bn submarine beset by design flaws | UK news | The Guardian

. . . .

The Royal Navy's new multibillion pound hunter-killer submarine, HMS Astute, has been beset by design and construction flaws that have raised doubts about its performance and potential safety.

The Guardian can reveal that Astute, the first of seven new submarines costing £9.75bn, has been unable to reach its intended top speed.

At the moment, the boat, heralded as the most sophisticated submarine ever built for the navy, cannot sprint to emergencies or away from an attack – an essential requirement for a hunter-killer boat.

It would also be incapable of keeping pace with the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers, which will be able to travel at more than 30 knots and need the submarines to protect them. One source told the Guardian the boat had a "V8 engine with a Morris Minor gearbox".

Other problems that have affected the boat in recent months include:

• Flooding during a routine dive that led to Astute performing an emergency surfacing.

• Corrosion even though the boat is essentially new.

• The replacement or moving of computer circuit boards because they did not meet safety standards.

• Concern over the instruments monitoring the nuclear reactor because the wrong type of lead was used.

• Questions being raised about the quality and installation of other pieces of equipment.

• Concern reported among some crew members about the Astute's pioneering periscope, that does not allow officers to look at the surface "live".

. . . .

Even though the boat has yet to start formal service, Astute – four years overdue and £2bn over budget – has been surrounded by controversy since it was first commissioned 15 years ago. In 2010, it was marooned off Skye, a calamity that led to its commander being removed from post. Last year a senior officer was shot dead by a junior member of the crew.

The Guardian has learned that during exercises off the east coast of the United States, a cap on one of the pipes that takes seawater from the back of the submarine to the reactor sprang a leak. A compartment began flooding with seawater, forcing the commander to surface immediately. Though nobody was hurt, an investigation revealed a cap was made from the wrong metal, even though construction records said the right metal had been installed.

. . . .

Problems occur when you are developing a next gen platform
Nothing new

 

[jhungary]

Oh I didn't check sorry bro. Anyway you gotta understand the negative emotion here in China towards the Brits from other incident (I better not derail by mentioning the specific incident) so it's understandable that some individuals would like to arm the Argie as a retaliation to the Brits, just personal emotion. So we are all good here right? This arm deal has nothing to do with the Argie's territorial dispute with UK, at least from China's perspective.

Indeed the Argie air force need some modernization. It's a good opportunity for China and Argentina to work something out.

lol I know, man actually I hate the Brits too (May seems strange but...), but yeah, i dont have any hard feeling for you as i knew you are not one of those sentimental nationalist member way before this post heh

The problem we see is argentina is heavily backward, instead of military deal, China should focus on mutual economic developement so Argentina can pay off its debt and have a future and then they can comeback to China for more weapon...or even JV.

And in fact, the current single biggest problem for the argie is not a tiny island called Falklands, but the neighbour to the left. There is a reason why Brazilian is the only portugese speaking South American country in all of South America....

 

[Shotgunner51]

lol I know, man actually I hate the Brits too (May seems strange but...), but yeah, i dont have any hard feeling for you as i knew you are not one of those sentimental nationalist member way before this post heh

The problem we see is argentina is heavily backward, instead of military deal, China should focus on mutual economic developement so Argentina can pay off its debt and have a future and then they can comeback to China for more weapon...or even JV.

And in fact, the current single biggest problem for the argie is not a tiny island called Falklands, but the neighbour to the left. There is a reason why Brazilian is the only portugese speaking South American country in all of South America....

LOL...自己友吾洗甘客气啦...

Yeah Arg is in serious financial trouble, and as you said their security situation is not nice as well. The way out? You are right, selling them arms (or JV whatever, they need fighters, AWAC, maritime surveillance, subs, surface combatants, radar, Beidou, ASW, transport planes, IFV, light arms, ...) should only be part of the big picture, in which China can do a lot more in making use of Arg's rich natural resources. The Argies are sitting on a pot of gold that they alone can't dig, let's do it together and call it "Strategic Partnership".

 

[cnleio]

ok!, I saw some fanboy here, I must say that I do not like both Chinese and British national, but I put the pot money for England. Argentina can buy the P-18, JF-17, F-10. But they are nothing compared to the Astute, Type 45 and Typhoon, Z-9C ASW is a joke because the Chinese have weaknesses ASW, their ASW very poor.

In addition, the Typhoon is the aircraft dominate in BVR scenario, in some aspects it is better than the Su-27/F-15, F-10 or so JF-17 (the poor electronic & aircraft engine, however, J-10 has good maneuverability due to the aerodynamic design of Lavi and F-16). And Argentina can buy in bulk, overwhelmed 4 Typhoon in Falkland, in WVR, dogfight, Typhoon can completely overwhelmed by number of F-10/JF-17 (30 F-10 / JF-17 vs 4 Typhoon ) PL-8/9 missile and aircraft cannon. But in BVR Typhoon completely overwhelming, missiles PL-12 / SD-10 (70km) is a joke compared to the Meteor missile (100 + km).

Astute is one of the quietest submarines in the world, in addition Z-9C can be shot down by Typhoon, Type 45. China can sell P-18, JF-17 with C-803, which actually a threat to the Type 45, but not for Asute. ASW is another war, in which China was out of the game

DEFENSE STUDIES: China's Weak in Anti Submarine Warfare ?
Beijing Confronts Long-Standing Weakness in Anti-Submarine Warfare | The Jamestown Foundation

I recommend that Argentina should buy the Type 039, DF-21C / D, they will be more effective

30x F-10 / JF-17 vs 4x Typhoon ... ??? I think Hitler‘s NAZI Germany should win WWII in 1945... LOL !

Oooops ... ur advanced Typhoon crashed in 2014 Spain and Germany.

BTW Pls tell me how many Meteor missiles Typhoon can carry once time ? I think max 6x Meteor, total 4 x 6 = 24x Meteor missiles here to face 30x F-10 / JF-17 fighters.

 

[jhungary]

LOL...自己友吾洗甘客气啦...

Yeah Arg is in serious financial trouble, and as you said their security situation is not nice as well. The way out? You are right, selling them arms (or JV whatever, they need fighters, AWAC, maritime surveillance, subs, surface combatants, radar, Beidou, ASW, transport planes, IFV, light arms, ...) should only be part of the big picture, in which China can do a lot more in making use of Arg's rich natural resources. The Argies are sitting on a pot of gold that they alone can't dig, let's do it together and call it "Strategic Partnership".

並不是所有同胞都當我是自己友的。lol

Anyway, The key issue of the Argentinian misfortune is the infrastructure, i would really love to see some Chinese firm volunteer to build HSR or even freight link from city to the port. Not simply help them to collect or extract their resource

The Argies can wait for fighter planes or awacs but those raillink and highway link cannot wait, and they are lacking from cristina last visit to China if i remember correctly.