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China and Vietnam in stand-off over Chinese survey ship mission to disputed reef in South China Sea

I find the Vietnamese here are untrustworthy. One says the 320.000 troops is fabricated, the other says they were engineers. 320.000 engineers? Saying different things all the times or making up stories doesn't look good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_population
Vietnam war 1955-1975, by looking at the population graph how can China have 320.000 engineers during that time?

Are they gonna explain why nobody from the Soviet Bloc making the statement that China betrayed USSR only just a few Vietnamese (maybe they are the same people using different accounts).

Evidence
https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=GaZvX2BzeegC&pg=PA176

American newspaper Toledo
https://news.google.com/newspapers?...kRPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_gIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3769,1925460

All i read from the sources is how China had provided support and help, now i can relate to why the Chinese people here claiming the few Vietnamese as ungrateful.
Again, they are civil engineering groups. Engineering means constructing bridges, roads, schools etc.
Not all are engineers of course. Certainly they are not the PLA.

China stopped all assistance, supplies and everything, withdrew to the last man following Sino/Soviet split. Long before the war reached the height in 1968.

China most likely wanted to send in the PLA, however that is unacceptable scenario.

Vietnamese still remember of brutal occupations of chinese armies.
 
Again, they are civil engineering groups. Engineering means constructing bridges, roads, schools etc.
Not all are engineers of course. Certainly they are not the PLA.

China stopped all assistance, supplies and everything, withdrew to the last man following Sino/Soviet split. Long before the war reached the height in 1968.

China most likely wanted to send in the PLA, however that is unacceptable scenario.

Vietnamese still remember of brutal occupations of chinese armies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_in_the_Vietnam_War

Military aid given to North Vietnam by China
full


To counter these U.S. overwhelming air strikes, Ho requested Chinese Anti-Aircraft Artillery (AAA) units in a meeting with Mao in May 1965. In response, People’s Liberation Army (PLA) forces began flowing into North Vietnam in July 1965 to help defend Hanoi and its major transportation systems.[7]:217 That’s one of the signal that China had increased the aid to Hanoi. The total number of Chinese troops in North Vietnam between June 1965 and March 1968 amounted to over 320,000.[1]:135 “The peak year was 1967 when 170,000 Chinese soldiers were present.[1]:135 It was the same year that PLA and PAVN made an agreement and indicated the magnitude of China’s aid to the DRV.


Not until 1972 would there be another significant increase in China's military delivery to Vietnam.[3]:378 Another figure shows that “When the last Chinese troops withdrew from Vietnam in August 1973, 1,100 soldiers had lost their lives and 4,200 had been wounded.”[1]:


@ChineseTiger1986
@Viva_Viet
@Kai Liu
@cochine
@bolo
@Place Of Space
@bshifter
@Brainsucker
@xiao qi
@riscol
@Dubious

Vietnam should have developed much better if Le Duan gave up the idea of Indochinese Union(Đông Dương thuộc Pháp). I guess your history book said something differently, but there will be no war between China and Vietnam if Vietnam retreat from Cambodia a bit earlier. In that case Vietnam will be a middle class country now and a much better relationship with China and world.

After 1989, you accepted whatever unacceptable because Soviet Union backed out. It's a dream to conquer Cambodia, and when the dream wake up, your people realized that the price is way too high.
 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_in_the_Vietnam_War

Military aid given to North Vietnam by China
full


To counter these U.S. overwhelming air strikes, Ho requested Chinese Anti-Aircraft Artillery (AAA) units in a meeting with Mao in May 1965. In response, People’s Liberation Army (PLA) forces began flowing into North Vietnam in July 1965 to help defend Hanoi and its major transportation systems.[7]:217 That’s one of the signal that China had increased the aid to Hanoi. The total number of Chinese troops in North Vietnam between June 1965 and March 1968 amounted to over 320,000.[1]:135 “The peak year was 1967 when 170,000 Chinese soldiers were present.[1]:135 It was the same year that PLA and PAVN made an agreement and indicated the magnitude of China’s aid to the DRV.


Not until 1972 would there be another significant increase in China's military delivery to Vietnam.[3]:378 Another figure shows that “When the last Chinese troops withdrew from Vietnam in August 1973, 1,100 soldiers had lost their lives and 4,200 had been wounded.”[1]:


@ChineseTiger1986
@Viva_Viet
@Kai Liu
@cochine
@bolo
@Place Of Space
@bshifter
@Brainsucker
@xiao qi
@riscol
@Dubious

Vietnam should have developed much better if Le Duan gave up the idea of Indochinese Union(Đông Dương thuộc Pháp). I guess your history book said something differently, but there will be no war between China and Vietnam if Vietnam retreat from Cambodia a bit earlier. In that case Vietnam will be a middle class country now and a much better relationship with China and world.

After 1989, you accepted whatever unacceptable because Soviet Union backed out. It's a dream to conquer Cambodia, and when the dream wake up, your people realized that the price is way too high.

Right, China support a lot for North Vietnam in Vietnam War. Of course, if Vietnam and China has good relation from 1975 to now. Vietnamese should give thanks to Chinese. But for the Sino-Soviet Split. Vietnamese wonder China support North Vietnamese for Vietnamese or China's interests itself. Personal, I know China give anything for Vietnamese in this war even when China is poor, too poor. China also need to find other way to live after conflict with USSR. US is a choice. If Im a Chinese. I see it with normal action. But with Vietnamese, it is too difficult to accept. US kill a lot of our people and China's action likely is a betrayer. Vietnamese know US could not force us kneel dow so they meet with China - a major support for North Vietnam. The Vietnamese leader like Le Duan see a real thing that China sake hand with American after our back. And we has reason to be careful with any your action. Even China actually want a unification for Vietnam. It is also a question with no reply now. I know Chinese people has a lot of good people. Personly I also feel Chinese are friendly. But You has your interest, Vietnamese too. So it's no difficult to understand why a lot of Vietnamese in here denied for Chinese's support. For Cambodia, because you are not Vietnamese, so you dont understand so much why did we need to attack them even accept to pay a expensive price for that. Because you dont understand for our relation with Cambodia from the past to now. BTW, Do you know why did Chinese retreat your solider in 1973? why not 1975 when Vietnam was uniification? Do you know? And they was died not because they attend the combat with American. I guess they participated in building and defending in North Vietnam and died by bomb. So Viet said they are not soldiers, that right in some cases.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_in_the_Vietnam_War

Military aid given to North Vietnam by China
full


To counter these U.S. overwhelming air strikes, Ho requested Chinese Anti-Aircraft Artillery (AAA) units in a meeting with Mao in May 1965. In response, People’s Liberation Army (PLA) forces began flowing into North Vietnam in July 1965 to help defend Hanoi and its major transportation systems.[7]:217 That’s one of the signal that China had increased the aid to Hanoi. The total number of Chinese troops in North Vietnam between June 1965 and March 1968 amounted to over 320,000.[1]:135 “The peak year was 1967 when 170,000 Chinese soldiers were present.[1]:135 It was the same year that PLA and PAVN made an agreement and indicated the magnitude of China’s aid to the DRV.


Not until 1972 would there be another significant increase in China's military delivery to Vietnam.[3]:378 Another figure shows that “When the last Chinese troops withdrew from Vietnam in August 1973, 1,100 soldiers had lost their lives and 4,200 had been wounded.”[1]:


@ChineseTiger1986
@Viva_Viet
@Kai Liu
@cochine
@bolo
@Place Of Space
@bshifter
@Brainsucker
@xiao qi
@riscol
@Dubious

.
Le Duan answer clearly why CN troops were in VN.

----------
I said [to the Chinese]: “Yes, yes! I will do that. I will only fight at the level of one platoon downwards.” After we had fought and China realized that we could fight efficiently, Mao suddenly had a new line of thinking. He said that as the Americans were fighting us, he would bring in [Chinese] troops to help us build roads. His essential aim was to find out about the situation in our country so that later he could strike us, and thereby expand into Southeast Asia. There was no other reason. We were aware of this matter, but had to allow it [the entry of Chinese troops]. But that was OK. They decided to send in their soldiers. I only asked that they send personnel, but these troops came with guns and ammunition. I also had to countenance this.

Later, he [Mao Zedong] forced us to permit 20,000 of his troops to come and build a road from Nghe Tinh into Nam Bo [the Vietnamese term for southern Vietnam]. I refused. They kept proposing, but I would not budge. They pressured me into permitting them to come, but I did not accept it. They kept on pressuring, but I did not agree. I provide you with these examples, comrades, so that you can see their long-standing plot to steal our country, and how wicked their plot is.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/comr...m-leader-on-china-aggression-mao-deng.323391/


Vietnam should have developed much better if Le Duan gave up the idea of Indochinese Union(Đông Dương thuộc Pháp). I guess your history book said something differently, but there will be no war between China and Vietnam if Vietnam retreat from Cambodia a bit earlier. In that case Vietnam will be a middle class country now and a much better relationship with China and world.

After 1989, you accepted whatever unacceptable because Soviet Union backed out. It's a dream to conquer Cambodia, and when the dream wake up, your people realized that the price is way too high
Stop repeating again and again,I gave u the answer, but u just ignore and keep repeating nonsense. You are violating forums rules now.
 
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Right, China support a lot for North Vietnam in Vietnam War. Of course, if Vietnam and China has good relation from 1975 to now. Vietnamese should give thanks to Chinese. But for the Sino-Soviet Split. Vietnamese wonder China support North Vietnamese for Vietnamese or China's interests itself. Personal, I know China give anything for Vietnamese in this war even when China is poor, too poor. China also need to find other way to live after conflict with USSR. US is a choice. If Im a Chinese. I see it with normal action. But with Vietnamese, it is too difficult to accept. US kill a lot of our people and China's action likely is a betrayer. Vietnamese know US could not force us kneel dow so they meet with China - a major support for North Vietnam. The Vietnamese leader like Le Duan see a real thing that China sake hand with American after our back. And we has reason to be careful with any your action. Even China actually want a unification for Vietnam. It is also a question with no reply now. I know Chinese people has a lot of good people. Personly I also feel Chinese are friendly. But You has your interest, Vietnamese too. So it's no difficult to understand why a lot of Vietnamese in here denied for Chinese's support. For Cambodia, because you are not Vietnamese, so you dont understand so much why did we need to attack them even accept to pay a expensive price for that. Because you dont understand for our relation with Cambodia from the past to now. BTW, Do you know why did Chinese retreat your solider in 1973? why not 1975 when Vietnam was uniification? Do you know? And they was died not because they attend the combat with American. I guess they participated in building and defending in North Vietnam and died by bomb. So Viet said they are not soldiers, that right in some cases.

I knew your relationship with Cambodia, I knew what happened very well. You must also understand Vietnam grabbed the entire Kampuchea Krom(Mekong Delta) from Cambodia. Without Laos and Cambodia, where is your Ho Chi Minh trail? Cambodia is victim of Vietnam expansion as well.

If you look at the records in "Military aid given to North Vietnam by China", China offered much more after shaking hands with Nixon. China has threat from USSR during Cold War, we need official diplomacy with US for that matter. It doesn't mean we want to backstab Vietnam in 1973-1975.

Some Vietnamese can blame China whatever they want, we really don't care, they are taught that way in school. But you must understand the political reality that China won't tolerate Vietnam-USSR alliance during cold war.

Vietnam crossed China 2 red lines. One is occupation of Cambodia and Laos. The other is Vietnam-USSR alliance during cold war.

No matter what you say, what you think. Doesn't matter much. It's geopolitics. If you thought China's red line is a joke, that's the consequence.

Ask yourself below questions in a neutral stance:

1, How many years Vietnam wasted? At least 2 decades.
2, What's the peace dividend after Vietnam War with US? Nothing, just another 10 years war.
3, Did you get Indochinese Union(Đông Dương thuộc Pháp) which Le Duan promised? NO.
4, How many Vietnamese died for Le Duan's ambitions but failed? Millions.
5, Did Vietnam-USSR alliance saved you? NO
6, Did USSR start a war with China to help you according to your military treaty with USSR? NO

USSR just used Vietnam as cannon fodder against China. You sacrificed for USSR. What you got from USSR are weapons and body bags. USSR backed out, stopped sponsoring your war with China because of China's request and economy deterioration.

We didn't blame USSR, it's just politics during Cold War and it was over. Now China has good relationship with Russia, we are strategic partners.

Ho Chi Minh is a legend who saved your country from France and US. China helped you a lot to fight against them. Le Duan is an adventurist who destroyed your country, and screwed up China-Vietnam relationship.

Right, China support a lot for North Vietnam in Vietnam War. Of course, if Vietnam and China has good relation from 1975 to now. Vietnamese should give thanks to Chinese. But for the Sino-Soviet Split. Vietnamese wonder China support North Vietnamese for Vietnamese or China's interests itself. Personal, I know China give anything for Vietnamese in this war even when China is poor, too poor. China also need to find other way to live after conflict with USSR. US is a choice. If Im a Chinese. I see it with normal action. But with Vietnamese, it is too difficult to accept. US kill a lot of our people and China's action likely is a betrayer. Vietnamese know US could not force us kneel dow so they meet with China - a major support for North Vietnam. The Vietnamese leader like Le Duan see a real thing that China sake hand with American after our back. And we has reason to be careful with any your action. Even China actually want a unification for Vietnam. It is also a question with no reply now. I know Chinese people has a lot of good people. Personly I also feel Chinese are friendly. But You has your interest, Vietnamese too. So it's no difficult to understand why a lot of Vietnamese in here denied for Chinese's support. For Cambodia, because you are not Vietnamese, so you dont understand so much why did we need to attack them even accept to pay a expensive price for that. Because you dont understand for our relation with Cambodia from the past to now. BTW, Do you know why did Chinese retreat your solider in 1973? why not 1975 when Vietnam was uniification? Do you know? And they was died not because they attend the combat with American. I guess they participated in building and defending in North Vietnam and died by bomb. So Viet said they are not soldiers, that right in some cases.

Oh, by the way, you are the girl on the left or right in your profile picture?

I have some Vietnamese friends in US. We are very similar culturally, look exactly the same. Vietnamese girls are the best in Southeast Asia.

Le Duan answer clearly why CN troops were in VN.

----------
I said [to the Chinese]: “Yes, yes! I will do that. I will only fight at the level of one platoon downwards.” After we had fought and China realized that we could fight efficiently, Mao suddenly had a new line of thinking. He said that as the Americans were fighting us, he would bring in [Chinese] troops to help us build roads. His essential aim was to find out about the situation in our country so that later he could strike us, and thereby expand into Southeast Asia. There was no other reason. We were aware of this matter, but had to allow it [the entry of Chinese troops]. But that was OK. They decided to send in their soldiers. I only asked that they send personnel, but these troops came with guns and ammunition. I also had to countenance this.

Later, he [Mao Zedong] forced us to permit 20,000 of his troops to come and build a road from Nghe Tinh into Nam Bo [the Vietnamese term for southern Vietnam]. I refused. They kept proposing, but I would not budge. They pressured me into permitting them to come, but I did not accept it. They kept on pressuring, but I did not agree. I provide you with these examples, comrades, so that you can see their long-standing plot to steal our country, and how wicked their plot is.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/comr...m-leader-on-china-aggression-mao-deng.323391/



Stop repeating again and again,I gave u the answer, but u just ignore and keep repeating nonsense. You are violating forums rules now.

Nonsense.

China had war India in 1962, with USSR in 1969, separated Taiwan blocked by US. There's zero possibility for China to invade Vietnam for no reason.

Le Duan tried to find excuse to defend his Cambodia occupation policy in Vietnam Communist Party. He failed to do so. His comrades fought against him, especially Le Duan's successor - Trường Chinh and Nguyễn Văn Linh

Trường Chinh changed Le Duan's foreign policy 180 degree. He sought peace with China intermediately.

Do read some real history, not your school history propaganda. I said, it's impossible for Vietnam Communist Party to explain the misjudgment Le Duan made to Vietnamese. China is the perfect scapegoat.
 
I
Nonsense.

China had war India in 1962, with USSR in 1969, separated Taiwan blocked by US. There's zero possibility for China to invade Vietnam for no reason.

Le Duan tried to find excuse to defend his Cambodia occupation policy in Vietnam Communist Party. He failed to do so. His comrades fought against him, especially Le Duan's successor - Trường Chinh and Nguyễn Văn Linh

Trường Chinh changed Le Duan's foreign policy 180 degree. He sought peace with China intermediately.

Do read some real history, not your school history propaganda. I said, it's impossible for Vietnam Communist Party to explain the misjudgment Le Duan made to Vietnamese. China is the perfect scapegoat.
Our leader answer clearly to world why CN troops were in VN. Mao forced us to accepted them when we only agreed Cnese service personel to fix the roads. The whole world agree wt his answer.

Stop lying and insulting VN leader. You are violating forum rules or I report to Mod.
 
Our leader answer clearly to world why CN troops were in VN. Mao forced us to accepted them when we only agreed Cnese service personel to fix the roads. The whole world agree wt his answer.

Stop lying and insulting VN leader. You are violating forum rules or I report to Mod.

I only take facts and logic. What De Duan said on his autobiography to defend his policy, doesn't make sense to me. It's illogical.

I can copy and paste this guy or that guy said to prove myself. It's meaningless.

I provided numbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_in_the_Vietnam_War

I showed you the international political environment during Cold War.

What you provide just copy and paste what De Duan said. You can't make an meaningful argument.
 
I only take facts and logic. What De Duan said on his autobiography to defend his policy, doesn't make sense to me. It's illogical.

I can copy and paste this guy or that guy said to prove myself. It's meaningless.

I provided numbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_in_the_Vietnam_War

I showed you the international political environment during Cold War.

What you provide just copy and paste what De Duan said. You can't make an meaningful argument.
But u r not allowed for personal attack on this forums. Lets the World judge what Le Duan did is right or wrong. If u dont like Le Duan, then sue him to the international court of justice, but not on this forum.okay??

Did u read the forum rules yet ??
 
But u r not allowed for personal attack on this forums. Lets the World judge what Le Duan did is right or wrong but not on this forum.okay??

Did u read the forum rules yet ??
You accused me on insulting De Duan. What insulting words I said exactly? Show me.
 
You accused me on insulting De Duan. What insulting words I said exactly? Show me.

tried to find excuse to defend his Cambodia occupation policy
-------
Hundred Vnese soldiers sacrificed to wipe out Pol Pot and brought peace back to Camb. PM Cam Hun Sen recognized it. Le Duan did not have "Cambodia occupation policy " as u lie.

Lying abt Le Duan's sacrificing policy to Camb is insulting
--------

Cambodia PM Hun Sen: PM Lee's comments 'an insult' to sacrifice of Vietnam's military volunteers
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/camb...ifice-of-vietnams-military-volunteers.622155/
 
-------
Hundred Vnese soldiers sacrifice to wipe out Pol Pot and brought peace back to Camb. PM Cam Hun Sen recognized it. Le Duan did not have "Cambodia occupation policy " as u lie.

Lying abt Le Duan sacrificing in Cam is insulting
--------

Cambodia PM Hun Sen: PM Lee's comments 'an insult' to sacrifice of Vietnam's military volunteers
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/camb...ifice-of-vietnams-military-volunteers.622155/

If that's insulting in an argument. Do report me. Let mod decide. I am innocent.
 
If that's insulting in an argument. Do report me. Let mod decide.
Just stop lying abt our leader Le Duan, Camb PM Hun Sen greatly recognize Le Duan and VN army's contribution to save Cambodian from Pol Pot who got help from CN to genocide 3millions Cambodian and thousand Vnese

If I see one more post lying abt Le Duan's help to Cambodia, then I will report.

Hun sen thanks for VN's help, case closed. No more trash talk to what VN and Le Duan did to Cambodia.
 
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Just stop lying abt our leader Le Duan, Camb PM Hun Sen greatly recognize Le Duan and VN army's contribution to save Cambodian from Pol Pot who got help from CN to genocide 3millions Cambodian and thousand Vnese

If I see one more post lying abt Le Duan's help to Cambodia, then I will report.

Hun sen thanks for VN's help, case closed. No more trash talk to what VN and Le Duan did to Cambodia.

Hun Sen support China's stance in South China Sea. Cambodia is smaller country compared with Vietnam, smaller population as well. No mountain nor Sea between Cambodia and Vietnam.

Hun Sen knew very well Vietnam's expansionism, they haven't forgot the entire Kampuchea Krom(Mekong Delta) which Vietnam grabbed from Cambodia. How can a smaller country survive between Thailand and Vietnam? Make peace, stay low profile as well as pro China.

Don't take what Hun Sen said seriously. I knew Hun Sen very well. He can stay in power for decades, he knew international politics much better than you guys here.
 
China involved in to Vietnam war in cold war time, do less talk more, for what ?

For shaken hands with USA in Peking 1972.

upload_2019-7-20_17-28-52.jpeg


and shaken hands aain with USA in Washington 1979. No more comments is needed.

upload_2019-7-20_17-30-40.jpeg


Phnom Penh marks 40th anniversary of the fall of the Khmer Rouge (video)

During the Maoist reign of terror, more than two million Cambodians died of hunger, forced labour, torture and mass executions. For Premier Hun Sen, 7 January represents Cambodia’s “second birth”.





Phnom Penh (AsiaNews/Agencies) – More than 60,000 Cambodians packed Phnom Penh’s Olympic Stadium yesterday to mark the 40th anniversary of the fall of the Khmer Rouge regime.

In the elaborate ceremony (see pictures and video), Prime Minister Hun Sen, who has ruled the country for the past 33 years, described that day as the country’s “second birth".

Marching bands and traditional Apsara dancers (celestial nymphs) took part in the event organised by the government.

In his speech, Hun Sen thanked Vietnam for “aiding the struggle to liberate Cambodia and her people from the genocidal regime” and contributing to a new era of “independence, freedom, democracy and social progress”.

The prime minister also vowed to open Cambodia up to “wider political dialogue between all parties, civil society, and all progressive circles”.

However, he failed to mention the now-dissolved opposition Cambodia National Rescue Party (CNRP), which was banned by the Supreme Court in November 2017 for its role in an alleged plot to topple the government.

Instead, he vowed to oppose "the actions of extremist opposition politicians and the foreign circle behind them".

In 1975, the Maoist Khmer Rouge led by Pol Pot imposed a reign of terror during which more than two million Cambodians (estimated as one quarter of the total population) died of hunger, forced labour, torture and mass executions.

The regime collapsed four years later when Hun Sen, a former Khmer Rouge, and Vietnamese forces reached the capital in an effort to end their rule.

Supported by nearly 20,000 Cambodian deserters, some 100,000 Vietnamese soldiers found only 100 people in the capital after the Khmer Rouges evacuated the city.

Afterwards, Vietnam remained in control of the country for more than a decade, and placed Hun Sen as leader backed by tens of thousands of its soldiers.

Under international pressure and following significant losses (25,000 dead), Vietnam pulled its troops out in September 1989 and two years later signed the Paris Peace Agreement.

On 16 November 2018, a UN court sentenced two Khmer Rouge leaders to life imprisonment for "genocide": Nuon Chea Pol Pot’s deputy, 92, and Khieu Samphan, 87, president of Democratic Kampuchea, the state founded by the Khmer Rouge in 1975.

The Cambodian Catholic Church also suffered at the hands of the Khmer Rouge. The process of beatification of 35 martyrs – who died during the persecutions carried out by the Pol Pot regime – opened in 2015.

One of them was Mgr Joseph Chhmar Salas, the first local bishop, and 34 priests, lay people, women, catechists, and missionaries like Fr Pierre Rapin, a French priest.
 
Hun Sen support China's stance in South China Sea. Cambodia is smaller country compared with Vietnam, smaller population as well. No mountain nor Sea between Cambodia and Vietnam, pls Insulting words r not allowed here,too.

Hun Sen knew very well Vietnam's expansionism, they haven't forgot the entire Kampuchea Krom(Mekong Delta) which Vietnam grabbed from Cambodia. How can a smaller country survive between Thailand and Vietnam? Make peace, stay low profile as well as pro China.

Don't take what Hun Sen said seriously. I knew Hun Sen very well. He can stay in power for decades, he knew international politics much better than you guys here.
PM Lee had to appology when saying VN "invaded and occupied Cambodia" cos that an Insult to VN sacrifice to Camb .

Once day, when CN become weak again like in Qing dynasty, then Cambodian will sue CN leader to the international court for supporting Pol pot killing 3 million Cambodian.
 

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