China and Bhutan reach deal on Himalayan border talks ‘in test for India’

[SuvarnaTeja]

Your shameless Indian media lied. I said again. Till now all skirmishes were initiated by India. In the Doklam standoff, Indian soldiers crossed entered to China's territory from China and Bhutan border .

India had an obligation to protect Bhutan as India inherited the protectorate agreement from the British. Why would India which is poor and weak pick a fight with China? What you are saying makes no sense.

 

[kankan326]

India had an obligation to protect Bhutan as India inherited the protectorate agreement from the British. Why would India which is poor and weak pick a fight with China? What you are saying makes no sense.

Many Chinese asked exactly same question. The answer lies in Inida. You should ask your Indians themselves. Chinese conclusions are:
1,Some Indians don't think India is weak and they are aggressive.
2, India made same mistake in 1962 thinking that China will tolerate India's aggressive moves. Take China's land for free.
3, Politicians want to win more votes by provoking China.
4, India sees Trump's administration as an opportunity. A window time that India may substitute China to become new world factory. Provoking China is the first thing to do to gain US trust.

 

[tower9]

China's incursions and invasion across the LAC started since XI took over China. It has nothing to do with India joining Quad. In fact India joined Quad after feeling threatened by China. But what is Quad? It is not a security alliance. US wants to make it one but India had made it clear that she do not want to be part of any security / military alliance. This is the reason why US has created AUKUS to confront China.


I agree that we Indians have slave mentality but we never considered China or Pakistan as weak. India at best will be able to defend for a few days and hope majors power will intervene. If it a two front war India will not be able to defend and lose very badly in a matter of days.

You might be confused because the Indian media is so rabidly anti China and very hysterical in their presentation. But the reality is that Xi actually wanted to build a long term economic partnership with India, this was the purpose of the Wuhan and Mallapuram summits. It was Modi and the pro western Jaishankar who joined the anti China bandwagon after covid started because Pompeo was taking a very hard line against China and recruited India, promising that China will be isolated and global manufacturing will be sent to India if it took on its role in confronting China in an anti China alliance. That is what the quad is. Of course Modi has backtracked a little and stated that the quad is not a military alliance because China ended up coming out of this crisis stronger than ever, but if the quad is not an anti China military alliance, then what the hell is it? Anyways, unfortunately the trust is broken and it won’t be coming back anytime soon. China knows that India will stab it in the back at any sign of weakness so China will not be in a mood to compromise or take India’s interests into consideration anymore.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

1,Some Indians don't think India is weak and they are aggressive.

Majority of Indians (99.99%) recognize that India is much much weaker than China (Economically, Militarily and Politically). We look up to China as an example and dream how India can also develop like China one day.

2, India made same mistake in 1962 thinking that China will tolerate India's aggressive moves. Take China's land for free.

During that time India did not have enough food to feed and was dependent on the US for food aid. India had to follow and do whatever US wanted us to do.

3, Politicians want to win more votes by provoking China.

No. China does not influence Indian politics at all. Most of the Indians admire China. Even with border issues and 100s of Indian soldiers dying in Galwan, Indians continue to buy Chinese products. There is absolutely no hate towards Chinese. Chinese are admired at the same level we admire British or Americans. Only Pakistan card works in Indian politics due to historical reasons.

4, India sees Trump's administration as an opportunity. A window time that India may substitute China to become new world factory. Provoking China is the first thing to do to gain US trust.

Indians understand that US-China have been partners since 1970s and continue to partner as part of G2. Indians are not delusional to think US would move their factories from China to India. It is never going to happen.

 

[tower9]

Majority of Indians (99.99%) recognize that India is much much weaker than China (Economically, Militarily and Politically). We look up to China as an example and dream how India can also develop like China one day.



During that time India did not have enough food to feed and was dependent on the US for food aid. India had to follow and do whatever US wanted us to do.



No. China does not influence Indian politics at all. Most of the Indians admire China. Even with border issues and 100s of Indian soldiers dying in Galwan, Indians continue to buy Chinese products. There is absolutely no hate towards Chinese. Chinese are admired at the same level we admire British or Americans. Only Pakistan card works in Indian politics due to historical reasons.



Indians understand that US-China have been partners since 1970s and continue to partner as part of G2. Indians are not delusional to think US would move their factories from China to India. It is never going to happen.

I understand that there is a segment of Indian society that sees China as a model of development however they are nowhere near the ones who are actually in control. This is why Indian media is hysterically anti China and this has been more the case since the Trump administration’s pivot to outright confrontation with China. The thing is that the Indian ruling elite have a chauvinistic view towards China and are deeply invested in the Anglo countries with strong ties to the diaspora in those countries so to them, it is logical to ally with the anglos to confront China especially since there is already an existing rivalry.

Of course to the common Indians, China represents a great example of how a big poor country can turn things around in a short time. It is logical for India to cooperate with China to achieve a prosperous future, unfortunately this segment of Indian society are not the ones dominating the Indian media and foreign policy establishment.

 

[kankan326]

Majority of Indians (99.99%) recognize that India is much much weaker than China (Economically, Militarily and Politically). We look up to China as an example and dream how India can also develop like China one day.



During that time India did not have enough food to feed and was dependent on the US for food aid. India had to follow and do whatever US wanted us to do.



No. China does not influence Indian politics at all. Most of the Indians admire China. Even with border issues and 100s of Indian soldiers dying in Galwan, Indians continue to buy Chinese products. There is absolutely no hate towards Chinese. Chinese are admired at the same level we admire British or Americans. Only Pakistan card works in Indian politics due to historical reasons.



Indians understand that US-China have been partners since 1970s and continue to partner as part of G2. Indians are not delusional to think US would move their factories from China to India. It is never going to happen.

From my observation, India is not such a rational country as you described. Indians themselves admitted Indian troops entered China's territory by crossing undisputed border in Doklam standoff. Modi also said no Chinese soldiers entered India territory in 2020 conflict.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

You might be confused because the Indian media is so rabidly anti China and very hysterical in their presentation. But the reality is that Xi actually wanted to build a long term economic partnership with India, this was the purpose of the Wuhan and Mallapuram summits. It was Modi and the pro western Jaishankar who joined the anti China bandwagon after covid started because Pompeo was taking a very hard line against China and recruited India, promising that China will be isolated and global manufacturing will be sent to India if it took on its role in confronting China in an anti China alliance. That is what the quad is. Of course Modi has backtracked a little and stated that the quad is not a military alliance because China ended up coming out of this crisis stronger than ever, but if the quad is not an anti China military alliance, then what the hell is it? Anyways, unfortunately the trust is broken and it won’t be coming back anytime soon. China knows that India will stab it in the back at any sign of weakness so China will not be in a mood to compromise or take India’s interests into consideration anymore.

What are you talking? India & China has been having talks on the boundary issue since 1990s. Never before Xi took over as president, India and China had any border stand offs. All these things started after Xi took over as president. In fact India & China had a stand off even as Modi was hosting Xi in India. That's how ruthless Xi is. He has no concern for the host.

From my observation, India is not such a rational country as you described. Indians themselves admitted Indian troops entered China's territory by crossing undisputed border in Doklam standoff. Modi also said no Chinese soldiers entered India territory in 2020 conflict.

Modi said no Chinese entered India because Modi and India were and are afraid of China and did not and do not want to anger China by claiming Chinese are occupying Indian territory. If Xi gets angry, India will go kaboom.

 

[kankan326]

Modi said no Chinese entered India because Modi and India were and are afraid of China and did not and do not want to anger China by claiming Chinese are occupying Indian territory.

Not really. It is one of few times Modi being honest. China has enough photos and videos proofs which show it was Indian side that changed the status quo in 2020.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

I am not sure what Japan does. All I know was that US did not include Japan in AUKUS. AUKUS was created to replace Quad. US wanted to make Quad a security alliance on the lines of NATO but India made it clear that India has never been and will never be part of any multilateral security alliance. If Quad or SCO try to become a security alliance then India will quit them.


Because India do not want to be part of any multilateral security alliance. It is the same for both SCO and Quad.


Why is China treating India as a slave and lower caste person. I know China is rich and powerful.


I agree China rules SCO. India does not count as India is not rich and powerful.

You are mistaken. AUKUS has nothing to do with the Quad. AUKUS has everything to do with the evolution of 5Eyes. NZ and Canada have decided to remain strong members of the 5Eyes, and were not too keen on evolving the 5Eyes from an intel sharing org to an active military alliance. The US needs a military alliance outside of NATO as they realize that NATO cannot be used against China. There is too much opposition for Nato's expansion (against China) from Germany and Turkey. So AUKUS is the military complement of 5Eyes (minus NZ and Canada), where Quad is a a broader regional alliance for Indo-Pacific. Quad will bring policy and economic alignment with some loose military and intelligence dimension. 5Eyes brings core intelligence, and AUKUS brings military alignment. AUKUS is a framework that allows for the most sensitive of military technology sharing as well, which 5Eyes and Quad don't have (AUKUS is the 21st century version of the US/UK Gunboat diplomacy which caused Pacific friction with Japan and China). The US is very smart, it is making the structure and form of alliances in line with a realistic view of what it can achieve. This will give the US the maximum return on each of these areas without putting each of these frameworks under pressure from unrealistic expectations.
China will need to counter each of these sorts of frameworks. It has to expand its intelligence gathering capabilities. It has to develop meaningful blue water naval capabilities along-with a set of close partner nations, to enable economic and naval security. And finally it will need to develop a core military alliance that it can count on which is likely to come from Russia and Pakistan.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

Not really. It is one of few times Modi being honest. China has enough photos and videos proofs which show it was Indian side that changed the status quo in 2020.

@kankan326 and @tower9

There was not a single border incident between India and China during Jiang Zemin's time (1989 – 2002) or Hu Jintao's time (2002 – 2012).

All incursions and invasion of India by China started with Xi Jinping's time (2012 to now).

I am not sure why China has become aggressive under Xi Jinping's leadership. It may be due to 2008 financial crisis after which China has become very powerful and US power has considerably weakened. So China knows that there no one to challenge China now.

 

[tower9]

@kankan326 and @tower9

There was not a single border incident between India and China during Jiang Zemin's time (1989 – 2002) or Hu Jintao's time (2002 – 2012).

All incursions and invasion of India by China started with Xi Jinping's time (2012 to now).

I am not sure why China has become aggressive under Xi Jinping's leadership. It may be due to 2008 financial crisis after which China has become very powerful and US power has considerably weakened. So China knows that there no one to challenge China now.

By your anecdote, couldn’t we say the same about Modi? All of these incidents arose after he became president and that was after Xi. Modi has shifted Indian society very much towards the right and have allied himself with the Anglo countries. He’s the main source of the tensions in the last few years. It’s very clear that Modi has chosen to place india in an anti China alliance.

 

[kankan326]

@kankan326 and @tower9

There was not a single border incident between India and China during Jiang Zemin's time (1989 – 2002) or Hu Jintao's time (2002 – 2012).

All incursions and invasion of India by China started with Xi Jinping's time (2012 to now).

I am not sure why China has become aggressive under Xi Jinping's leadership. It may be due to 2008 financial crisis after which China has become very powerful and US power has considerably weakened. So China knows that there no one to challenge China now.

After 1962 war, Chairman Mao said "This war will guarantee 50 years peace at China-India border". From his tone you can clearly see China is the one that desires peace. China's attention is on east land and sea border. Mao was right. 50 years is long enough for India to forget the pain. The 1962 India is back.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

By your anecdote, couldn’t we say the same about Modi? All of these incidents arose after he became president and that was after Xi. Modi has shifted Indian society very much towards the right and have allied himself with the Anglo countries. He’s the main source of the tensions in the last few years. It’s very clear that Modi has chosen to place india in an anti China alliance.

I would have said that but Modi has been the biggest supporter of China in India. You can go back to even his days as CM of the state of Gujarat when he invited Chinese to do Business in his state.

 

[tower9]

I would have said that but Modi has been the biggest supporter of China in India. You can go back to even his days as CM of the state of Gujarat when he invited Chinese to do Business in his state.

And likewise, Xi actually spearheaded the Wuhan summit to push for closer ties with India. However circumstances change. Modi at one time may have welcomed Chinese investors but the rising confrontation between US and China offered valuable opportunities that were promised to India if it would only jump on the anti China bandwagon. Why would China instigate conflict with India when it was already getting attacked every day by the US? That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[nang2]

I would have said that but Modi has been the biggest supporter of China in India. You can go back to even his days as CM of the state of Gujarat when he invited Chinese to do Business in his state.

That is NOT a proof that he supported China. It is only a proof that he supported India (or his own state) and he knew how to get Chinese investment to help India (or his own state).

Besides, his own state is not bordering with China. It is largely immune to the border issue between two countries. But when he is the prime minister, his interest is now bordering with China. He may needs to appease some politicians who would like to be more aggressive. Therefore, his case in his own state is not a sure evidence on how he acts when he is the prime minister.