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[UKBengali]

Of course it's ridicules, but I'm not making such an argument, now am I? The Chinese just don't want to spend dozens of more years researching the necessary steps to create high quality and high performance engines, and taking a look at the engines will help China to decrease the time it needs to do just that. They're not looking to copy, but to implement what they learn from the Russian engines into their own domestic ones.

You learn pretty much zero by importing engines for study.

India is far behind China and has around a decade head start as it imported them in the 1980s and China had to wait till the 1990s.

 

[That Guy]

You learn pretty much zero by importing engines for study.

India is far behind China and has around a decade head start as it imported them in the 1980s and China had to wait till the 1990s.

Quite the opposite, you learn quite a lot about engines by studying them, a simple example is the components needed to build such an engine, the quality that is needed and so on. Original Chinese engines were based on reverse engineered Russian engines; This gave the Chinese invaluable experience on how to build a modern engine, and most of the modern Chinese engines are a direct result of such efforts.

India has been trying to build an engine without a platform to base their own engines on, which is why India is having more trouble; add to that the fact that India is almost around a decade behind China in engine development, the Indians have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[shuttler]

Quite the opposite, you learn quite a lot about engines by studying them, a simple example is the components needed to build such an engine, the quality that is needed and so on. Original Chinese engines were based on reverse engineered Russian engines; This gave the Chinese invaluable experience on how to build a modern engine, and most of the modern Chinese engines are a direct result of such efforts.

India has been trying to build an engine without a platform to base their own engines on, which is why India is having more trouble; add to that the fact that India is almost around a decade behind China in engine development, the Indians have a lot of catching up to do.

that is ridiculous!

india can get direct access to birtish, french, russian figher jets and other planes which are equipped with some of the most advanced engines at their times and you claim they cannot find a suitable platform???

 

[That Guy]

that is ridiculous!

india can get direct access to birtish, french, russian figher jets and other planes which are equipped with some of the most advanced engines at their times and you claim they cannot find a suitable platform???

It's funny how everytime you reply to me, you tend to take everything I've said out of context.

India can get the engines, yes, but they're trying to build an engine from scratch, because they want to be able to say "Hey, this is 100% Indian!", China doesn't care about such things. China only cares about what's practical and what will lead to their complete independence in the defence field.

I'll give you a small example, don't you think that India would have been able to build an engine, if they got help from Russia and used Russian tech? Of course they would (and Russia would be delighted to help India), but this project is more to do with national pride than actual practical use. Sure they'll have a domestic engine for their future fighters like the LCA, but the engine is not expected to be as powerful as western or Russian (hell, not even Chinese) engines.

 

[shuttler]

It's funny how everytime you reply to me, you tend to take everything I've said out of context.

cos you are talking without reasons

India can get the engines, yes, but they're trying to build an engine from scratch, because they want to be able to say "Hey, this is 100% Indian!", China doesn't care about such things. China only cares about what's practical and what will lead to their complete independence in the defence field.

I'll give you a small example, don't you think that India would have been able to build an engine, if they got help from Russia and used Russian tech? Of course they would (and Russia would be delighted to help India), but this project is more to do with national pride than actual practical use. Sure they'll have a domestic engine for their future fighters like the LCA, but the engine is not expected to be as powerful as western or Russian (hell, not even Chinese) engines.

Your comment

"Hey, this is 100% Indian!"

is so wrong

Per wikipedia:

GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In mid-2004, the*Kaveri*failed its high-altitude tests in Russia, ending the last hopes of introducing it with the first production*Tejas*aircraft.[7]*This unfortunate development led the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) to order 40 more IN20 engines in 2005 for the first 20 production aircraft, and to openly appeal for international participation in completing development of the*Kaveri. In February 2006, the ADA awarded a contract to*SNECMAfor technical assistance in working out the*Kaveri's*problems

A press release in August 2010, stated that GTRE with the help of Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) of Russia is trying to match objective of fine tuning of Kaveri engine performance
...........
In January 2013, the GTRE director said that they are abandoning the plan for co-development with Snecma, but they still need an overseas partner, which will be selected through competitive bidding

even the indians themselves do not believe you can have said this:"Hey, this is 100% Indian!"

you can say they are overestimating their own capabilities and underestimating the difficulties of the tasks but to say they are lack of platforms or "this is 100% indian" is not correct!

so stop the BS!

 

[That Guy]

cos you are talking without reasons



Your comment is so wrong

Per wikipedia:



even the indians themselves do not believe you can have said this:"Hey, this is 100% Indian!"

you can say they are overestimating their own capabilities and underestimating the difficulties of the tasks but to say they are lack of platforms or "this is 100% indian" is not correct!

so stop the BS!

Can you please stop paraphrasing, you keep doing this. Answer my entire comment as a whole, not as uncontextualized parts.

Also, nowhere does it say that the engine is co-developed, nor that it is based on another platform.


As per your wiki article

"In January 2013, the GTRE director said that they are abandoning the plan for co-development with Snecma, but they still need an overseas partner, which will be selected through competitive bidding."

So they're still looking for a partner, and until they find one, it is considered a pure Indian engine. The Russians are only fine tuning the damn thing, it is still a pure Indian design.

 

[Genesis]

Can you please stop paraphrasing, you keep doing this. Answer my entire comment as a whole, not as uncontextualized parts.

You are making this sound like India CHOOSE not to be the independent. The fact that they are the world's largest importer of weapons should say something about whether they want care about pride.

If they really wanted pride, then they should use their own latest weapons, which at this point should make them as powerful as vietnam.

So your statement makes no sense. As to practical and pride, why do you think all powerful nations have indigenous industries? Because you can go further than currently available. So it is both.

Your assumption that China completely copies because it is practical and India doesn't copy due to pride makes no sense.

Building an engine is difficult, it is not the design, as the design was there long ago, it is the manufacturing of parts, and quality control. China at this point don't have the experience in that kind of manufacturing which DOESN'T lead to no engines, it leads to limited number of engines.

Hence it be difficult for China to match US in terms of quantity.

So reverse engineering is not the problem here, as at this point it is pretty much useless. We have two options either keep trial or error or get expertise from nations that have decades of experience in this.

 

[That Guy]

You are making this sound like India CHOOSE not to be the independent. The fact that they are the world's largest importer of weapons should say something about whether they want care about pride.

If they really wanted pride, then they should use their own latest weapons, which at this point should make them as powerful as vietnam.

So your statement makes no sense. As to practical and pride, why do you think all powerful nations have indigenous industries? Because you can go further than currently available. So it is both.

Your assumption that China completely copies because it is practical and India doesn't copy due to pride makes no sense.

Building an engine is difficult, it is not the design, as the design was there long ago, it is the manufacturing of parts, and quality control. China at this point don't have the experience in that kind of manufacturing which DOESN'T lead to no engines, it leads to limited number of engines.

Hence it be difficult for China to match US in terms of quantity.

So reverse engineering is not the problem here, as at this point it is pretty much useless. We have two options either keep trial or error or get expertise from nations that have decades of experience in this.

Actually, I've said the exact opposite of what you're accusing me off. I never said China copies, I never said that India is choosing whether or not to be independent (though, that is their end goal), I never said that building an engine is easy, I never said that China was trying to match the US.

I've been falsely accused of a lot of things in previous comments, but this one takes the cake.

 

[shuttler]

Can you please stop paraphrasing, you keep doing this. Answer my entire comment as a whole, not as uncontextualized parts.

Also, nowhere does it say that the engine is co-developed, nor that it is based on another platform.


As per your wiki article

"In January 2013, the GTRE director said that they are abandoning the plan for co-development with Snecma, but they still need an overseas partner, which will be selected through competitive bidding."

So they're still looking for a partner, and until they find one, it is considered a pure Indian engine. The Russians are only fine tuning the damn thing, it is still a pure Indian design.

dont twist the facts again
France has formed a JV with the indians and no one who is well aware of the project will say it is an 100% indigenous indian made even if it is successful (and it is not). dont fool yourself!

 

[That Guy]

dont twist the facts again
France has formed a JV with the indians and no one who is well aware of the project will say it is an 100% indigenous indian made even if it is successful (and it is not). dont fool yourself!

I'm not twisting facts, the truth is that the reason why you only highlighted a part of the sentence where it says co-development with Snecma shows that it is you that is twisting facts.

The Joint Venture was ABANDONED, IT SAYS SO IN YOUR OWN WIKIPEDIA QUOTE, WHICH YOU PURPOSEFULLY DIDN'T HIGHLIGHT.

And don't call me a fool.

 

[Genesis]

Actually, I've said the exact opposite of what you're accusing me off. I never said China copies, I never said that India is choosing whether or not to be independent (though, that is their end goal), I never said that building an engine is easy, I never said that China was trying to match the US.

I've been falsely accused of a lot of things in previous comments, but this one takes the cake.

Ok, I'm not sure I still have command of the English language, you got to be saying something. You can't be saying nothing while saying something.

Though I will say I never actually read your post it is only through another's quote. So maybe it's sarcasm, don't know, but if it is, it is really difficult online when you can't hear the tone.

 

[shuttler]

I'm not twisting facts, the truth is that the reason why you only highlighted a part of the sentence where it says co-development with Snecma shows that it is you that is twisting facts.

The Joint Venture was ABANDONED, IT SAYS SO IN YOUR OWN WIKIPEDIA QUOTE, WHICH YOU PURPOSEFULLY DIDN'T HIGHLIGHT.

And don't call me a fool.

where did I call you a fool? I said dont fool yourself!
OMG you are such a difficult person to talk to! You also fail to understand simple sentences!
If I didnt highlight it, is that you cant read the rest of the content
Chill out kid!

Where is the indigenuity of the engine if it is made by co-operating with a foreign partner using the foreigner's tech?

indian fails to produce any jet engine to their criteria! the failed engine is indigenous indian made

 

[That Guy]

where did I call you a fool? I said dont fool yourself!
OMG you are such a difficult person to talk to! You also fail to understand simple sentences!
If I didnt highlight it, is that you cant read the rest of the content
Chill out kid!

Where is the indigenuity of the engine if it is made by co-operating with a foreign partner using the foreigner's tech?

indian fails to produce any jet engine to their criteria! the failed engine is indigenous indian made

Calling me a fool and saying I shouldn't fool myself are the same thing, only worded differently.

highlighting things won't change facts and the fact is that you're wrong.

Now you're calling me a kid, great, now you have a superiority complex. Really, with the way you keep insulting me, no wonder you find it hard to communicate, as all you can do in the face of logic and reason is insult.

 

[shuttler]

Calling me a fool and saying I shouldn't fool myself are the same thing, only worded differently.

highlighting things won't change facts and the fact is that you're wrong.

Now you're calling me a kid, great, now you have a superiority complex. Really, with the way you keep insulting me, no wonder you find it hard to communicate, as all you can do in the face of logic and reason is insult.

let's stop here. I find it hard to communicate with you with reasons!

 

[That Guy]

let's stop here. I find it hard to communicate with you with reasons!

Funny, I could say the same about you.