China 1992, India 2012

[gpit]

No harm in dreaming. I hope the dreams don't come crashing down too soon.

In fact, China is a distant country for India. You should look at your real East Asian neighbors. Even smaller countries like Vietnam and Korea and Japan don't much care for your non existent "influence".

Dreaming unrealistically and excessively only results in nightmares. That is very harmful!

That is why you guys love to use a lot of “will”, “if” …

This world believes no “if”. The future starts from present, and only hard work can create bright tomorrow, not the size of mouth.

As ignorant as you are, just let you know that Japan, Korea and Vietnam will be history-less like you if you eradicate themselves from Chinese influence. Some Japanese attempted earlier to remove Kanji from their language, they confused, lost and concluded that a Japanese without kanji is a joke. The same story goes for Korean and Vietnam.

One cultural defect with your India is that you don’t have a complete history, thus you are easily to embrace colonial master’s system for wrong reasons. But that’s nobody’s business but yours.

BTW, do you know what is Kanji? LOL!

BWT again, read up more history before showing off your illiteracy.

 

[gpit]

80% of your labor is involved in manufacturing low cost or copied products. Guess that's the best deal for them..

It is indeed the best deal for them, fortunately or unfortunately.

Taiwan develops in this way, Japan develops in this way, so will China.

The true unfortunate fact for India is that, not many developed countries would move their manufacturing base to India due to your 1) poor infrastructure; 2) high illiteracy; 3) rampant corruption; 4) laziness; 5) non-functional bureaucracy …

What about the slave child labors who work & die in Chinese brick kilns? I think it works better for them then to be killed in black jails or in rural areas..

In China, there are about tens kilns workers being taken advantage of their mentally challenged condition. I agree it is pretty disgusting. But, when compared with a democracy where millions children starved to death every year, that is nearly nothing. Really!

 

[gpit]

Can the mods do something about this MArtian2 guy

This is no way to debate, you can't just overwhelm everyone with irrelevant information. Its a pain in the as* to go through the thread. And the people who are quoting him, must you quote all of his post for your useless oneliners

Desperation in display?

LOL!

Of course it is pain in your @ss when the sizes of mouth are not compared but facts and data are shown, …

No surprise at all!



When you see useless, we see useful. That is that.

 

[Abhishek_]

^the whole point of the article was when china began development, almost everyone dismissed that they can pull it off. 20 years later many of the pessimists were proven wrong.

India is beginning the same journey of development now, ridiculing our efforts to overcome the same ills of society is rather in poor taste.

those who forget how they developed, will never truly progress

 

[gpit]

Again, China is nowhere the leader in nuclear technology or any technology.

Most of what you do is what the West invented decades back.

No doubt it is great for China to play catch up, your pretensions are still funny.

Everybody uses the technologies the Chinese invented thousands and hundreds years back.


Steve Chu, the head of USDOE, pointed out 7 places that China is ahead of US in energy sector:

• High Voltage Transmission. China has deployed the world's first Ultra High Voltage AC and DC lines -- including one capable of delivering 6.4 gigawatts to Shanghai from a hydroelectric plant nearly 1300 miles away in southwestern China. These lines are more efficient and carry much more power over longer distances than those in the United States.

• High-Speed Rail. In the span of six years, China has gone from importing this technology to exporting it, with the world's fastest train and the world's largest high-speed rail network, which will become larger than the rest of the world combined by the end of the decade. Some short distance plane routes have already been cancelled, and train travel from Beijing to Shanghai (roughly equivalent to New York to Chicago) has been cut from 11 hours to 4 hours.

• Advanced Coal Technologies. China is rapidly deploying supercritical and ultra-supercritical coal combustion plants, which have fewer emissions and are more efficient than conventional coal plants because they burn coal at much higher temperatures and pressures. Last month, Secretary Chu toured an ultra-supercritical plant in Shanghai which claims to be 45 to 48 percent efficient. The most efficient U.S. plants are about 40 percent efficient. China is also moving quickly to design and deploy technologies for Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC) plants as well as Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS).

• Nuclear Power. China has more than 30 nuclear power plants under construction, more than any other country in the world, and is actively researching fourth generation nuclear power technologies.

• Alternative Energy Vehicles. China has developed a draft plan to invest $17 billion in central government funds in fuel economy, hybrids, plug-in hybrids, electric and fuel cell vehicles, with the goal of producing 5 million new energy vehicles and 15 million fuel-efficient conventional vehicles by 2020.

• Renewable Energy. China is installing wind power at a faster rate than any nation in the world, and manufactures 40 percent of the world's solar photovoltaic (PV) systems. It is home to three of the world's top ten wind turbine manufacturers and five of the top ten silicon-based PV manufacturers in the world.

• Supercomputing. Last month, the Tianhe-1A, developed by China's National University of Defense Technology, became the world's fastest supercomputer. While the United States -- and the Department of Energy in particular -- still has unrivalled expertise in the useful application of high performance computers to advance scientific research and develop technology, America must continue to improve the speed and capacity of our advanced supercomputers.

It is not pretention, it is the fact.

 

[Abhishek_]

more off topic chest beatings.

 

[gpit]

^the whole point of the article was when china began development, almost everyone dismissed that they can pull it off. 20 years later many of the pessimists were proven wrong.

India is beginning the same journey of development now, ridiculing our efforts to overcome the same ills of society is rather in poor taste.

those who forget how they developed, will never truly progress

more off topic chest beatings.

No problem with your statement. And please don't stop Indians from beating their chest.

But nobody think it is a good taste when mentally challenged kiln workers were quoted (as if there were no illegal labor in India), communism was cited (as if India democracy was more functional ), cheap Chinese manufacturers ridiculed (as if India manufacturers were more expensive), China only uses western invention ( as if West never used China invention)... luckily 2mm or 0.2mm theory hasn’t been not used ( as if those Indians were having bigger brain size), yet.

All my posts were to give the jokers their own taste, being it bad or good.

 

[Abhishek_]

^it isn't befitting of a senior member to counter-troll. report the posts and move on.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

more off topic chest beatings.

At least it's based on something that has been done and not some cloud-cuckoo-land.

 

[davidson]

No problem with your statement. And please don't stop Indians from beating their chest.

But nobody think it is a good taste when mentally challenged kiln workers were quoted (as if there were no illegal labor in India), communism was cited (as if India democracy was more functional ), cheap Chinese manufacturers ridiculed (as if India manufacturers were more expensive), China only uses western invention ( as if West never used China invention)... luckily 2mm or 0.2mm theory hasn’t been not used ( as if those Indians were having bigger brain size), yet.

All my posts were to give the jokers their own taste, being it bad or good.

Good Analysis

 

[Abhishek_]

At least it's based on something that has been done and not some cloud-cuckoo-land.

doesn't make it any better, in the end the thread is derailed even further.
better to report the posts and stay on topic

 

[newdelhinsa]

Chinese are scared of from their own shadows, what a bunch of schizophrenic lot they are.

 

[gpit]

Does that include the 50 million who couldn't make it across the great leap? Making iron in the backyard?

And those who may not be able to make it across the next one?

Neither does it include 2,000,000 yearly death toll of child starvation, totalling at least 120 million since the independence of India, and is still going on as we speak...

 

[davidson]

Well india claims to be the worlds largest democracy, but is more like a hidden dictatorship! as far as business,billionaires,moneymak*ing and production/education. China is way ahead of india. india is developing but it might take another 300 years due to all the corruption and the caste system!

 

[newdelhinsa]

From where you got these figure 120 million Chinese clown ?


Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)
Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:
Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths
Brzezinski:
Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao
Daniel Chirot:
Land reform, 1949-56
According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million
Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)
Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
TOTAL under Mao: 70M
Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million died in Cultural Rev.
Eckhardt:
Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000
Gilbert:
1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.
Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):
They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000 to 67,000,000.
Cited by G & P:
Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept. 1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had been exterminated in China.
(NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)
Guinness Book of World Records:
Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:
On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.
Harff and Gurr:
KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51): 800,000-3,000,000
Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000
John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen: 27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:
Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people perished.
Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ... is a matter of conjecture."
Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three principle mass dyings of the Mao years:
Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people executed during the first three years of the PRC.
Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse.
R. J. Rummel:
Estimate:
Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
The principle episodes being...
All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides
War: 3,399,000
Famine: 34,500,000
Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
TOTAL: 72,260,000
Cited in Rummel:
Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M direct/indirect deaths.
World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979): 39.9M
Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies, Deaths in China Due To Communism: 3M to 4M death toll, excluding famine.
Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):
1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M
July 17, 1994, Washington Post (Great Leap Forward 1959-61)
Shanghai University journal, Society: > 40 million
Cong Jin: 40 million
Chen Yizi: 43 million in the famine. 80 million total as a result of Mao's policies.
Weekly Standard, 29 Sept. 1997, "The Laogai Archipelago" by D. Aikman:
Between 1949 and 1997, 50M prisoners passed through the labor camps, and 15,000,000 died (citing Harry Wu)
WHPSI: 1,633,319 political executions and 25,961 deaths from political violence, 1948-77. TOTAL: 1,659,280
Analysis: If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be complete, the median falls in the 45.75 to 52.5 million range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final number from this neighborhood. Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by two different authorities, you can slide the median up and down the scale by many millions. Keep in mind, however, that official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny, so most of these numbers are pure guesses. It's pointless to get attached to any one of them, because the real number could easily be half or twice any number here.
Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the individual components. The medians here are:
Purges, etc. during the first few years: 2M (10 estimates)
Great Leap Forward: 31-33M (14 estimates)
Cultural Revolution: 1M (13 estimates)
Ethnic Minorities, primarily Tibetans: 750-900T (8 estimates, see below)
Labor Camps: 20M (5 estimates)
This produces a total of some 54,750,000 to 56,900,000 deaths. The weak link in this calculation is in the Labor Camp numbers for which we only have 5 estimates.
Notice that many early body counts (such as Walker) completely miss the famine during the Great Leap Forward, which was largely unknown in the west until around 1980. There are two contradictory ways to assess those early estimates which ignore the famine:
"If these are the numbers that they came up with without the famine, imagine how high the true number will be once you add the famine deaths."
"Can we trust any of these numbers? After all, if they missed such a huge famine, they can't have known very much about what was going on inside China."
... so this line of reasoning will get us nowhere. In fact, the median of the 7 estimate that predate 1980 is 45.7M, which is almost the same as the median of the 7 estimates that post-date 1980 -- 58M. (At this scale, a 12M difference counts as "almost the same".)
Tibet (1950 et seq.): 600 000
Chinese occupation. (For the most part, it's already been included in the numbers above.)
Free Tibet Campaign [http://www.freetibet.org/info/facts/fact1.html]
Tibetans killed by the Chinese since 1950: 1,200,000
Died in prisons and labour camps between 1950 and 1984: up to 260,000
1959 Uprising: 430,000 died
K. in Reprisals: 87,000
Our Times: 1,200,000
Courtois: 600,000 - 1,200,000
Walker, Robert: 500,000-1,000,000 (all ethnic minorities)
Rummel: 375,000 democides inflicted on etnic minorities
... incl 150,000 Tibetans
Margolin, "China" in Courtois, Black Book of Communism, p. 546
The population of Tibet plunged from 2.8 million in 1953 to 2.5 million in 1964 [ a loss of 300,000]
Porter: 100,000 to 150,000.
Eckhardt:
1950-51 War: 2,000 civ.
1956-59 Revolt: 60,000 civ. + 40,000 mil. = 100,000
Harff and Gurr: 65,000 Tibetan nationalists, landowners, Buddhists killed, 1959
Small & Singer say that China lost 40,000 soldiers in Tibet between 1956 and '59.
................................

The Champion of genocide in modern history of Man Kind and the award goes to China.